Illinois fans on Mike Shaw

[damuts222]

Funny as the joke is on you.  No one likes to be called out for being the constant negative, sky is falling, glass is half-empty, we're doomed but I'm just calling how it is but I'm really a MU fan curmudgeon on the board. 
 
No matter how you try to spin it you should just stop and look in the mirror and realize what you are doing.

Of course Buzz' stall ball played into the Washington come-back...but we still lost by a basket....had not every pump fake and dribble been called a traveling and had not every defensive of stop been bailed out by a lame call/whistle and giving Washington more possessions and momentum I'm confident MU holds on to win that game by 3+ points. 

DePaul has always recruited well being in Chicago's back yard is no secret (Richardson, Simmons, Hunter, Chandler...not to mention high school commits who went pro instead like Curry and Wright...are all post Meyer era pros who committed to  DePaul)....and yes Purnell will continue to get his share of Chicago good players with immediate playing time to promise....this is not a oracle type of prediction but common sense....however is Purnell and DePaul do not have what MU does in the hardest working/biggest upside coach in America who basically has created a team with 12 top 100 players in his third year and shown glimpses of incredible player development and coaching genius.  MU's ceiling under Buzz is twice as high as DePaul's and if Shaw is a smart kid he will see this and join the Golden Eagles.

 A loss is a loss, that game is over and in the past.

 DePaul has not recruited well in years, 1 player every other year is not enough..especially in the Big East.

 All of us root for Marquette, some people drink the Kool-Aid every day but you are very optimistic. The offseason
is a good time to be optimistic and theres nothing wrong with that. But don't question people or call out a person
on a board for just expressing his opinion it will get you nothing but people ignoring you.     

[brewcity77]

No u r just wrong at this point....to say we are not even close when we've been knocking on the door the last couple of years and have had great recruiting classes with increased overall talent. To say we are not even close is just plain silly....even Sultan might think we're close.   

I'm one of the perennial optimists of late, but you may just want to back out of this argument, because you're really taking a pasting. Listen, I am hoping that Buzz's recruiting classes and coaching, along with an influx of talent, will lead to great success for Marquette. But let's simply look at a few facts regarding the arguments you are getting yourself into in this thread.

1) Predicting the separation of the Big East and calling for the separation of the Big East are two totally different things. A disappointing prediction doesn't make one negative. Listen, I'm a lifelong Cubs fan, and predicted them to be god awful this year. That doesn't mean I wanted them to be god awful, I just looked at the roster and saw a team that had no hope of winning. So my realistic prediction was bad, even though I cheered for them to win every game and hoped against hope that they would win it all. Sultan isn't saying he wants bad things for Marquette, just that the current landscape of collegiate athletics could end up spelling bad things for Marquette.

2) Blaming the refs when you had a 15-point lead is just poor form. If we had stayed aggressive in the second half, we would have beat Washington. I love Buzz as a coach, but he needs to work on getting his teams to close out games. We saw a disappointing trend of it early in the season, then it reared its head again come NCAA time. Hopefully he'll work it out this offseason and we won't be lamenting this in the upcoming year as well. Remember that fans see games through biased eyes. I can guarantee you when we were building our lead, there were some calls UW fans would have disputed that had us off to the races. That's just the way the game goes.

3) You seem to realize you buried yourself on the DePaul argument. Sultan said they'd win some battles, you agreed that they can hold their own in Chicago, and we all know Purnell is a turn-around specialist.

4) Last year, we weren't ranked once. We got close, we got votes, but we weren't ranked once. Even with the Three Amigos, we didn't win a Big East Championship. We've been a perennial top-half Big East team, but until you actually win something, or get a 2nd or 3rd place, you can't promise Big East Championships...especially when you have two chances at hanging a banner, the regular season and the conference tourney and we haven't taken so much as one of either. And long dances into March? How can you promise that when our last "long dance" was 7 years ago, and before that magical run with D-Wade, it was a Sweet Sixteen that was 16 years ago, and before that you have to look all the way back to 1977 for what I would call a successful NCAAs. Until you do it, you can't promise you are going to do it. I desperately want us to do it. I want Buzz to recruit like a beast, bring in guys like Miller, Faust, and Shaw, have us contending with Syracuse and Pitt on a regular basis, and remind us what the second and third weekends of March Madness are like. But until he hangs a banner (Big East regular season, tournament, NCAA Final Four, whatever), until he puts together a string of 4-5 recruiting classes like he has, until we are ranked in the preseason on a regular basis based not just on recruits but on what we have actually accomplished, that hopeful "Come to MU..." pitch you want to use simply isn't applicable. Do I think we can get there? Yes. Are we close? Closer than we were at any time since Wade left, but still 3-6 years off.

[Henry Sugar]

But until he hangs a banner (Big East regular season, tournament, NCAA Final Four, whatever), until he puts together a string of 4-5 recruiting classes like he has, until we are ranked in the preseason on a regular basis based not just on recruits but on what we have actually accomplished, that hopeful "Come to MU..." pitch you want to use simply isn't applicable. Do I think we can get there? Yes. Are we close? Closer than we were at any time since Wade left, but still 3-6 years off.

+1 to everything from brewcity, but especially this

[GGGG]

No u r just wrong at this point....to say we are not even close when we've been knocking on the door the last couple of years and have had great recruiting classes with increased overall talent. To say we are not even close is just plain silly....even Sultan might think we're close.   

I would say that we have potential.  If that means we are close, that's fine.  But we have to accomplish more on the court.  Playing hard is one thing.  Recruiting well is another.  But the results need to follow.

And I'm not one to say unless we win championships or get to Final Fours, we are a failure.  My expectations on what I would define as a success are probably a lot lower than most people on this board.

[duanewade]

Lame....moderator please create a board called the "Sky is Falling Board" for people who are negative about everything so they never get their hopes up and hurt if things don't turn out perfectly.  I know the board was full of them last fall with bottom of the big east preseason predictions and utter shock and dismay but tempered with cynicism when MU had early wins against Xavier and Michigan.  

Let me ask you this....do you honestly think MU doesn't have a chance of being a top 25 preseason ranked team after this season if we have a good season with a lot of key and talented players back and Jamil Wilson finally eligible?  And if we sign Nick Faust and Shaw or any other combination of the studs we're on and have a third top 20 recruiting class in a row are we really not setting ourselves up for being a consistent top 25 team?  Don't answer any of this as I know your answer....please post at the sky is falling board.  

BTW Al McGuire was also an amazing recruiter, complained about the refs, said politically incorrect things, was quirky and passionate about what he did and what he could do at Marquette.  Buzz Williams is the same way and is just at the cusp of the great things MU will do over the coming years.  Good thing he is the coach and not you guys as the kids would be crying in the locker room before every game with such sad "pep" talks.  

[NersEllenson]

Lame....moderator please create a board called the "Sky is Falling Board" for people who are negative about everything so they never get their hopes up and hurt if things don't turn out perfectly.  I know the board was full of them last fall with bottom of the big east preseason predictions and utter shock and dismay but tempered with cynicism when MU had early wins against Xavier and Michigan.  

Let me ask you this....do you honestly think MU doesn't have a chance of being a top 25 preseason ranked team after this season if we have a good season with a lot of key and talented players back and Jamil Wilson finally eligible?  And if we sign Nick Faust and Shaw or any other combination of the studs we're on and have a third top 20 recruiting class in a row are we really not setting ourselves up for being a consistent top 25 team?  Don't answer any of this as I know your answer....please post at the sky is falling board.  
 too
BTW Al McGuire was also an amazing recruiter, complained about the refs, said politically incorrect things, was quirky and passionate about what he did and what he could do at Marquette.  Buzz Williams is the same way and is just at the cusp of the great things MU will do over the coming years.  Good thing he is the coach and not you guys as the kids would be crying in the locker room before every game with such sad "pep" talks.  

Dude!  I am a big Buzz fan, and optimist..but I don't think Sultan has been "lame" or too critical at all.  On paper we look to be very talented, but we still have a lot that needs to happen on the court before we proclaim Big East champioinships, deep tourney runs, etc.  I think Sultan, like many, believes we are on the cusp of some really good times in our program.  I believe we are on the verge of some great things as well..but I don't think we need to call out fellow mans that are a little bit more reserved in their enthusiasm..than you or me for that matter.

[GGGG]

Lame....moderator please create a board called the "Sky is Falling Board" for people who are negative about everything so they never get their hopes up and hurt if things don't turn out perfectly.  I know the board was full of them last fall with bottom of the big east preseason predictions and utter shock and dismay but tempered with cynicism when MU had early wins against Xavier and Michigan.  

Let me ask you this....do you honestly think MU doesn't have a chance of being a top 25 preseason ranked team after this season if we have a good season with a lot of key and talented players back and Jamil Wilson finally eligible?  And if we sign Nick Faust and Shaw or any other combination of the studs we're on and have a third top 20 recruiting class in a row are we really not setting ourselves up for being a consistent top 25 team?  Don't answer any of this as I know your answer....please post at the sky is falling board.  

You really are starting to be prickish.  The answer to all your questions are yes...they would have potential to be a regular top 25 team, BE contender and Sweer 16 participant.  But the key work is "potential."

. 

BTW Al McGuire was also an amazing recruiter, complained about the refs, said politically incorrect things, was quirky and passionate about what he did and what he could do at Marquette.  Buzz Williams is the same way and is just at the cusp of the great things MU will do over the coming years.  Good thing he is the coach and not you guys as the kids would be crying in the locker room before every game with such sad "pep" talks. 

Al McGuire accomplished something on the court  much more significcnt than Buzz has to date.  Mc Guire won championships, made multiple final fours, was regularly ranked in the top 10.  He did something with his potential.  Buzz has yet to do so.  He very well might though.

[MUBurrow]

even the most "optimistic" (whatever that has come to mean) are fighting amongst themselves.

I haven't been on this board as long as most, but has there ever been an offseason that needed to end more than this one?

[brewcity77]

Lame....moderator please create a board called the "Sky is Falling Board" for people who are negative about everything so they never get their hopes up and hurt if things don't turn out perfectly.  I know the board was full of them last fall with bottom of the big east preseason predictions and utter shock and dismay but tempered with cynicism when MU had early wins against Xavier and Michigan.  

Let me ask you this....do you honestly think MU doesn't have a chance of being a top 25 preseason ranked team after this season if we have a good season with a lot of key and talented players back and Jamil Wilson finally eligible?  And if we sign Nick Faust and Shaw or any other combination of the studs we're on and have a third top 20 recruiting class in a row are we really not setting ourselves up for being a consistent top 25 team?  Don't answer any of this as I know your answer....please post at the sky is falling board.

Yeah, now you've pretty much just crossed into "I'm an irrational idiot" territory who decides to throw all his toys out of the pram when he realizes things aren't going his way. Do we have a chance? Yes. Does that mean we will become a consistent top 25 team? Maybe. But should we expect that year in and year out? Absolutely not.

Do you even realize how many teams maintain that level of consistency? Over the past 5 years, only two teams have been ranked in every AP Preseason poll. Duke and Texas. They are the only two. Another nine teams have been ranked four out of the past five years. Kansas, Kentucky, Louisville, North Carolina, Georgetown, Memphis, Michigan State, UCLA, and Connecticut. Those nine teams are pretty much a who's who of college basketball.

I'm not saying it's impossible for us to become a top team. I think Buzz has the chops and recruiting prowess to do it. But until you've done it with the consistency of a Duke, a Kansas, a Michigan State, a Connecticut, until you have proven it on the court, you can't use it as a selling point. No one is saying Marquette can't return to being an elite team. No one is saying that Buzz doesn't have a prayer of creating a legacy. All people are saying is that there are way too many variables to assume it's a given, as you are doing.

What if Buzz leaves after this year? He's said his heart is here, but college coaches have lied before. What if his last two classes don't develop as expected, and DJO turns pro after a stellar junior season? We could come back next year with a bare cupboard. What if Buzz just can't turn all of his talent into wins in March? He hasn't done so yet, we can't assume it's a given. What if we go another 5 years of almosts and still don't have a Big East regular season or tournament banner hanging in the rafters at the BC? What if Faust goes to Maryland, Shaw goes to West Virginia, Miller goes to Duke, and this ends up being the year Buzz can't land the top recruits he's on the trail of?

The simple truth is there are way too many variables to make blanket statements that we're on the verge of being one of the top teams in all the land (which is what you are saying) when we haven't been beyond the first weekend of the NCAA tournament since 2003 and haven't taken home any conference trophies since the CUSA regular season title that same year. Until we actually win something of significance, we aren't on par with teams like North Carolina, Memphis, or UCLA. I wish we were, I hope we will be, and I think it's possible, but saying it's inevitable is putting the cart before the horse.

[TheDawson]

Illinois/Marquette fan here. Why all the hate? Illinois fans are very critical of Bruce Weber and NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY, ever called Ron Zook the next Vince Lombardi

To call Illinois a train wreck when they have had one losing season in the last 10 years is very dumb. And I like how you bring up how bad Weber is at recruiting, but fail to mention he's landed 2 top 10 classes in a row and is definitely putting another one together for 2011. I'm sorry some of you have to deal with bad Illinois fans, but every team has bad fans.

And just an FYI, Illinois fans consider Marquette a player for Shaw. Illinoisloyalty/Illiniboard isnt a premium site, they have no inside sources, they just post anything that sports writers publish. Not a good site at all to get good inside information

[TheTasteofGarlic]

....either that or he's constipated. /quote]

Is there anything more under rated than a good healthy BM?

[APieperFan3]

I would say that we have potential.  If that means we are close, that's fine.  But we have to accomplish more on the court.  Playing hard is one thing.  Recruiting well is another.  But the results need to follow.

YES.

"Playing Hard" doesnt necessarily win you games. It puts you in position to win games; and sometimes games you shouldnt' win.

"Recruiting" gives you talent, which again puts you in a position to win games.

Getting that "talent" (recruits) to "play hard" IS what wins you games.

MU definately has the potential...and good results are definately on the horizon if things keep going the way that they are.

[esotericmindguy]

Illinois/Marquette fan here. Why all the hate? Illinois fans are very critical of Bruce Weber and NOBODY, I repeat NOBODY, ever called Ron Zook the next Vince Lombardi

To call Illinois a train wreck when they have had one losing season in the last 10 years is very dumb. And I like how you bring up how bad Weber is at recruiting, but fail to mention he's landed 2 top 10 classes in a row and is definitely putting another one together for 2011. I'm sorry some of you have to deal with bad Illinois fans, but every team has bad fans.

And just an FYI, Illinois fans consider Marquette a player for Shaw. Illinoisloyalty/Illiniboard isnt a premium site, they have no inside sources, they just post anything that sports writers publish. Not a good site at all to get good inside information

This is a free board here as well, EVERY topic is hijacked and spun out of control....we call it 3 degrees of separation for Tom Crean. Its annoying, and it mostly started by the old timers that can't let Al McGuire/Warrior days go; its not the 70s, we're not a top 10 program....get over it.

[GGGG]

This is a free board here as well, EVERY topic is hijacked and spun out of control....we call it 3 degrees of separation for Tom Crean. Its annoying, and it mostly started by the old timers that can't let Al McGuire/Warrior days go; its not the 70s, we're not a top 10 program....get over it.

Really?  It's actually my impression that it's the younger crowd that is the eternally optimistic bunch.  They haven't lived through the dark days like others have.