Worst paying college degrees

[mu_hilltopper]

Whitefish Bay
Shorewood

Yeah, it's funny how a 10-20-30 years ago, employers and employees could make the deal for lower wages, higher benefits.

Now that health care costs (in particular) are so high and climbing, employers would rather back off on those, give more in salary.

My wife taught for 10 years, made in the $50s, but her benefits were way over $30k per year -- health insurance alone was $23k for a family policy, of which the teacher pays 8%.

MPS's benefit rate is like 77% of every salary dollar.

So .. if "total compensation package" were counted, I think teachers would not be in the top 10 of that list.

[Hards Alumni]

absolutely.

WEA insurance is unbeatable.

[mu_hilltopper]

Which is why the unions should dump WEAC insurance.  They are under salaried, over insured. 

[mu-rara]

absolutely.

WEA insurance is unbeatable.

Hards,

I have never started a political argument, but I find it hard to let some "stuff" go by unanswered.  The idea that total compensation to teachers is low is one of those fallacies. 

I'm guessing that WEA insurance profits fund much of the political activism that you don't like.

[Hards Alumni]

Hards,

I have never started a political argument, but I find it hard to let some "stuff" go by unanswered.  The idea that total compensation to teachers is low is one of those fallacies. 

I'm guessing that WEA insurance profits fund much of the political activism that you don't like.

I guess we will just have to disagree.  If need be I am sure I can go back through threads and find things you have said that are politically provocative.  I don't really wish to, but I would bet it wouldn't be very hard.   Either way, I am just tired of the random political stuff that people throw around.  Either it is allowed, or its not.

I also find it hard to let 'stuff' go by unanswered... clearly.

Additionally, I am sure that WEA insurance profits fund that activism.  I was only stating that WEA insurance is unbeatable because it is.  It is probably the best insurance that I can think of.  If I was a teacher I would be ticked pink!  Having said that, I am not endorsing WEA insurance or their use of funds for politics.

[muarmy81]

Wow,
This thread could become a powder keg.

A few thoughts:

My mother retired is a WI elementary teach at age 53...gets a full pension and health coverage, how many other professions/employers outside of law enforcement and government still offer that type of retirement benefit?

The long hours during the day...I got it, but again, based on the total days worked teachers get compensated just fine, IMO.  People who work the entire calendar year also work longer than an 8 hour work days so I don't see how stating that teachers work long days makes a strong argument.  Most professionals work long days.  however, most companies only offer 7-9 holidays plus 10-20 days vacation per year...not 120 days off per year.

Next point:  what is our ROI with regards to education?  We are currently spending more per student than most European countries and our students perform worse in most areas.  The solution is spend more money?  I think this is where Unions have a negative influence but I operate in a right to work area of the US so I'll keep my union thoughts/experiences to myself.

Lastly, this really has no scientific proof but many of my peers from High School that weren't very smart or driven ended up becoming teachers...just throwing that out there.

My mom was a teacher, I respected all my teachers growing up, and I think it is an honorable and important profession but I don't think they are under-compensated.

Let the grilling begin.

[JWags85]

Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin?  I have no real metric, but my guess would be: 

Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet

I went to Homestead.  I never knew Waukesha West to be that good.  Arrowhead would have to be in the debate based on size and subsequent funding alone.

[MU B2002]

Wow,
This thread could become a powder keg.

So you provide some matches...  Way to go.

[PBRme]

I'd agree that we would have to (and should) pay some teachers more (science, math, early elementary) but a lot of teachers could be had for a lot less (music, Phys Ed, Art, and probably History and English, etc).  The problems with the union contracts are that pay is based on longevity and formal education rather than student performance and improvement metrics.

[CrazyEcho]

I went to Homestead.  I never knew Waukesha West to be that good.  Arrowhead would have to be in the debate based on size and subsequent funding alone.

Homestead makes sense . . . I have no idea how anyone would actually rank public high schools in Wisconsin, but Homestead is certainly one of the most well-funded. 

[Lennys Tap]

Like most, my teachers ran the gamut from incompetent to inspirational. The really good ones will always be undercompensated while those at or near the bottom are stealing money. This will never change as long as tenure is so easy to get and compensation is based on longevity rather than ability.

[Josey Wales]

total crap.  When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day.  Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy.  Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification.  Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.

This is total crap. Lets say teachers work from 8 to 4, an 8 hour day. Most teachers get about 45 min for lunch, and an additional hour for "planning period" which most teachers use as an extended lunch. This brings us to about a six hour work day. In addition, most teachers do take summers off, roughly three weeks for Christmas holiday off, spring break off, fall break off, easter holiday off, and various other holidays/teacher inservice days.

Compare this to almost any other profession. I'll take nursing, since my mom is a nurse. She works 10 hour days, she commonly doesn't have time for a lunch break of any sort, and she almost never gets home on time which usually results in a 11-12 hour work day; in addition to working holidays, nights, weekends, summers. Her total yearly compensation is probably very similar to that of an experienced teacher.

Now, I am not trying to bash your parents in any way. I am simply taking a look at the "average" teacher. I admit I have known some teachers who work their asses off, and work just as much time, if not more, as other professions. These teachers certainly deserve everything they get plus more. But on average, teachers do have it pretty easy.

[Cooby Snacks]

Now, I am not trying to bash your parents in any way. I am simply taking a look at the "average" teacher. I admit I have known some teachers who work their asses off, and work just as much time, if not more, as other professions. These teachers certainly deserve everything they get plus more. But on average, teachers do have it pretty easy.

To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions.  There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.

[Lennys Tap]

To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions.  There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.

True, but you don't have to send your kids to the bad/lazy doctor, etc. Not as many choices in education. Do you move or change schools each time one of your kids has a bad teacher?

[ChicosBailBonds]

total crap.  When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day.  Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy.  Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification.  Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.

I will concede that the benefits are great as a teacher, but the unions have worked hard for decades for those benefits.

As for retirement at a young age, my parents invested really well, and were able to retire around age 58.  That is early by a couple of years.  I had teachers at my high school who didn't retire until they were in their 60s.  I'm not sure what 'average' is, but 60 can't be too early.

I couldn't agree more, and neither could my parents.  My father wore a shirt and tie every day teaching public school, and my mother wore dress clothes everyday as well.  I think that when students see teachers dressing like bums they don't have the respect that they should for the teachers.  This is only the fault of the teachers and the districts that allow them to get away with it.

Mom was a teacher for 40+ years, dad was a professor before going into the private sector.  Mom definitely graded papers when she got home, typically while watching tv.      Lesson planning as well, though after a number of years they merely needed to be tweaked.  Great teacher, won the So. Cal teacher of the year and similar type award in Colorado a number of years ago....even got her award presented to her by Presidential nominee, John Kerry.

Mom had Summers off, she had a full certification in California that was "grandfathered" in for life.  She did take occasional classes, but for the most part the Summer was downtime for her.

The benefits are incredible so I don't go for the perception on how under appreciated the profession in.  Teachers have a tough job, but they also are rewarded handsomely with pensions that 95% of private sector employees would kill for. 

[Freeport Warrior]

Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin?  I have no real metric, but my guess would be:  

Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet

Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.

Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46

[JWags85]

Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.

Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46

Kohler, Bay, and Shorewood are all deceptive compared to Homestead, Brookfield Central, and the Madison Schools cause they have 600-700 students whereas the latter have 1500-2200.  I actually think Kohler has under 400.  But then again, a smaller sample size means its easier to keep averages higher, but funding is less.  Where the bigger schools have more to even out averages, but more funding.  All are equally impressive.

[PBRme]

Kohler, Bay, and Shorewood are all deceptive compared to Homestead, Brookfield Central, and the Madison Schools cause they have 600-700 students whereas the latter have 1500-2200.  I actually think Kohler has under 400.  But then again, a smaller sample size means its easier to keep averages higher, but funding is less.  Where the bigger schools have more to even out averages, but more funding.  All are equally impressive.

Kohler is a blue collar town, I think that makes it more impressive, most of the other schools on the list are upper middle class area codes with more (formally) educated parents with higher (presumably) expectations regarding education.  I'd say Kohler is more impressive than deceptive.

[Benny B]

Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.

Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46

Are ACT scores a good metric to compare schools?  After all, only those who are college bound take the ACT, right?  What about those students that don't take the ACT, or only take the SAT because they're going to college out of state?

Hypothetically, if only 5% of the students from Kohler took the ACT, and the rest that didn't failed their senior year, does that make their school better than an Elmbrook East where 95% of the students took the ACT yet as a group scored lower?

[JWags85]

Kohler is a blue collar town, I think that makes it more impressive, most of the other schools on the list are upper middle class area codes with more (formally) educated parents with higher (presumably) expectations regarding education.  I'd say Kohler is more impressive than deceptive.

It may be blue collar, but its a fairly affluent town, absolutely upper middle class.  Are you sure you're not thinking Sheboygan itself?  Kohler started as a planned community for the workers but now has kind of turned into a very nice suburb of sorts for Sheybogan.  My grandparents live there and its very nice.  The goals of students at that HS are not concurrent with that of other "blue collar" towns.  I would imagine the college placement is just as high as any of the others and expectations are no different.

[mugrad99]

To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions.  There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.

Anyone can see this just from reading this board

[mu-rara]

It may be blue collar, but its a fairly affluent town, absolutely upper middle class.  Are you sure you're not thinking Sheboygan itself?  Kohler started as a planned community for the workers but now has kind of turned into a very nice suburb of sorts for Sheybogan.  My grandparents live there and its very nice.  The goals of students at that HS are not concurrent with that of other "blue collar" towns.  I would imagine the college placement is just as high as any of the others and expectations are no different.

All that may be true, but we will never forgive Joe Wolf.

[reinko]

Sheboygan has suburbs.  Who knew.

[MUBurrow]

Sheboygan has suburbs.  Who knew.

Does this mean Sheboygan is spreading? God help us.