MBOA MIGHT BE LEAVING THE PROGRAM

[TJ]

3. I cannot wait for the signing period to be over so we can discuss who is on the team and next year's lineup rather than guessing and judging people who may or may not be on the team.

If I remember correctly, there's no rule that says that you have to announce a departure from the team to oversign.  So, while I share your optimism that this will all be cleared up within about 2 weeks, it's also possible that we oversign and don't find out until much later who's out.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

I'd be OK with Mbao staying.  He's got potential.  About the physically fastest and quickest 7-footer I've ever seen.  (Yes, I realize he'll lose some of that bulking up.)  I also wondered what kind of professional team he was playing on - are they sure it as basketball?

[Les Nessman]

Three things:
2. Why as a collective fan base, do we consistently misspell Mbao's name?

3. I cannot wait for the signing period to be over so we can discuss who is on the team and next year's lineup rather than guessing and judging people who may or may not be on the team.

+1

[Canadian Dimes]

I don't know why so many people are getting on Yous in this thread. Sure he didn't show a ton, but as with most big guys, it takes them a little while. Our problem is we don't have the upperclass big man to take pressure off the young guys and allow them time to develop. We have a soph and a freshman as our only height. I think Yous has a lot of potential and hope he stays. He is very fast and seems to have good hands. Get a little meat on him and I think he could be pretty good as a junior and could be a huge asset his senior year.

+1000

cheebs i absolutely agree with you.  I love the kids athleticism and obviously his heighth.  peopl are way too hard on him and are making way too early of ajudgemnt ...in fact it is an ignorant judgement. Our issue is when Buzz took over we had no upperclassmen with size and it exposes these not yet ready for primetime guys.  Wisconsin would have redshirted Yous and Otule becuase they would have had a Junior and Senior getting all the minutes at the 5.  heck the reason Buzz could not redshirt Yous was becuase he knew he would probabbly need him. 

[wyoMUfan]

today is yous' bday.
I hope he doesn't read these boards

happy bday big guy

[NersEllenson]

"Buzzcut" might be an alternative.

I seem to remember an awful lot of hand-wringing on the board over the years regarding the high number of transfers under Crean--hence the adoption of the term "creaning."  

Yet under Buzz, the number of departures is running more than twice Crean's average.

If there was legitimate concern over the number of transfers under Crean, those same people ought to be screaming bloody murder right now.  Their silence now speaks volumes.

Can you illustrate how the number of departures under Buzz is running more than twice Crean's average?  So far we have Maymon and Roseboro - with Maymon likely transferring only due to his delusional father, and Roseboro pretty much came to the conclusion that he was way overmatched at the MU level.  Please don't tell me you are going to throw Hazel in the mix, as he was pretty much dismissed for his off-court transgression.  I also wouldn't think you would throw Mbawke, Taylor, NIck Williams, or Scott C in the mix.  

[GOO]

Mbao moves as well or better than any seven footer I've seen in college.  He runs the floor really well.  He projects to be much better than Osmane Barro, in my opinion.  But, he needs at least 2 more years, with one being a redshirt.  That would allow him two productive years, maybe one productive year.  But he could be a game changer, so he is worth the risk in my opinion.  He won't be a 270 pounder, but could be a strong 240 pounder who can move.  Strong and 240 and able to move, will allow him to play well in the Big East and be a game changer.  He already has good hands and a little jumper - some big men can never develop these things - he's already got them.  He could guard many positions on the floor and once stonger would be a killer in a 1-3-1 zone on the base line, or just let him play the lane on defense and swat shots away.  

What I don't know is the following:  Is he busting his butt and hitting it hard, making full effort?  It will take this for him to improve.  If he isn't up to it, then it is a different matter.  Is he doing okay in the classroom.  I assume so, but again, if the effort isn't there, then this is another matter.

So, if he is making the effort on the court and in the classroom, I like his future.  If he isn't working hard, then it may not be a good fit.  

I hate to speculate about what I don't know, so I'll assume that he is busting butt on and off the court and hope he stays.  

[Marquette84]

I think your memory is incorrect...the hand wringing was over two facts.  1.  the fact that Crean apart from about 6-7 players his last 6-7  years brought in a dozen or more players that had absolutely no business playing high major D1 ball  then they would turnover at a very high rate and Mu was perpetually young becuase of it.  Then Crean would use the "were young excuse" all day long.  2.  Crean had alot of good players that we actually wanted leave and good assitants.  When you are not signing many good players and then some good ones leaveit makes things tough on the fans

So far Buzz has had the 12th man  or so not come back in Roseboro and HAzel and Mbao if true. Different story than ODb and MAson

You cherry pick the two best players that left over nine years of Crean and then compare to worst players that left Buzz?  I know you're biased, but not even you could believe anyone would accept that as a fair comparison

Here's the more reasonable comparision:
Losing ODB and Mason is comparable to losing Mbakwe and Maymon.  

Losing Amo or Christian is comparable to losing Christopherson or Hazel.

Losing Saunders is comparable to losing Clark.

Losing Hester and Menard is comparable to losing Roseboro or Mbao.

Both Crean and Buzz lost the same type of players from the top through the bottom of the roster.

The difference is that Crean saw 13 players/recruits leave the program over 9 years (1.4 per season).  Buzz has had 9 (if we include Acker, who he begged back) in two seasons (4.5).  Even if we exclude Acker, the rate of departures is almost three times the rate under Crean.

I'm also surprised you now call Mbao a "12th man" given this statement:

I love the kids athleticism and obviously his heighth.  peopl are way too hard on him and are making way too early of ajudgemnt ...in fact it is an ignorant judgement.

So which is he? A future All-Big-East player?  Or a 12th man?  Sounds like you want to play both ways on this one.

[GOO]

I wouldn't count any player who left due to the coaching change (so I'd take out Mbakwe and Christopherson; but Mbakwe was supposed to be leaving and then when Crean left we thought he was going to stay, so who knows who Mbakwe should fall under). 

Clark was never on the team and never signed a LOI.  No one to compare this to except some player that orally commited but then didn't come.   
Hazal was for other reasons - maybe like Amo and Mortenson under Crean?

There is always change when a new coach comes in, and since Buzz had to cobble a team together and get players from all over, I'd give him some slack for the first couple of seasons.  Lots of changes and lots of new faces.

[NersEllenson]

You cherry pick the two best players that left over nine years of Crean and then compare to worst players that left Buzz?  I know you're biased, but not even you could believe anyone would accept that as a fair comparison

Here's the more reasonable comparision:
Losing ODB and Mason is comparable to losing Mbakwe and Maymon.  

Losing Amo or Christian is comparable to losing Christopherson or Hazel.

Losing Saunders is comparable to losing Clark.

Losing Hester and Menard is comparable to losing Roseboro or Mbao.

Both Crean and Buzz lost the same type of players from the top through the bottom of the roster.

The difference is that Crean saw 13 players/recruits leave the program over 9 years (1.4 per season).  Buzz has had 9 (if we include Acker, who he begged back) in two seasons (4.5).  Even if we exclude Acker, the rate of departures is almost three times the rate under Crean.

I'm also surprised you now call Mbao a "12th man" given this statement:
So which is he? A future All-Big-East player?  Or a 12th man?  Sounds like you want to play both ways on this one.

You've pretty much just diminished your credibility with this post regarding transfers under Buzz/Crean.  Buzz has 2 of his "own" recruits transfer thus far - Maymon and Roseboro.  To try to say Buzz is either at fault or responsible for the transfers of Taylor, Williams, Mbawke, Chistopherson, Hazel - is ridiculous.  Even the Acker issue - you are aware that he too was basically put on probation/off the team for his transgression, correct?  To bring Acker's case into the argument (and Monterale Clark) who's never been on campus - just shows how biased you are against Buzz - and your continued defense of Tom Crean.

Please don't try to say Buzz has had 9 players leave in 2 seasons - and that he begged Acker back.  Buzz has basically 2 departures that you can put on him in his 2 years - Maymon and Roseboro.  Period.

[brewcity77]

Marquette84, are you talking about Monterale Clark? That's not one Buzz lost, that's a guy whose offer was rescinded by Marquette when he was charged with felony sexual assault:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/59569142.html

[cheebs09]

Just curious because I wasn't really following the team at that point, but was there a lot of turnover when Crean first took the job? Did recruits back out of their verbals when he was hired?

[Hards Alumni]

You cherry pick the two best players that left over nine years of Crean and then compare to worst players that left Buzz?  I know you're biased, but not even you could believe anyone would accept that as a fair comparison

The irony in your entire post is amazing.

You two are both the most biased people on this board.

by a LONG shot.

[bma725]

Just curious because I wasn't really following the team at that point, but was there a lot of turnover when Crean first took the job? Did recruits back out of their verbals when he was hired?

There weren't any recruits to back out.

Deane only had one player coming in, Krunti Hester.  Crean honored his signing, and Krunti came here for his first year.  Once here, Crean told him he wouldn't ever see more than garbage minutes, so Krunti decided to leave and ended up transferring to Lamar to play for Deane....where he didn't see much time.

Everyone else who left after that was one of Crean's guys.

[Clam Crowder]

A redshirt for Mbao would work wonders. U want a great example of how using the redshirt for a year is great for a player look at Jamine Peterson of Providence. He couldnt learn the plays and was redshirted for a year, and bulked up and everyone knows how good his numbers were this year. I don't want Mbao to leave you can't teach height

[cheebs09]

There weren't any recruits to back out.

Deane only had one player coming in, Krunti Hester.  Crean honored his signing, and Krunti came here for his first year.  Once here, Crean told him he wouldn't ever see more than garbage minutes, so Krunti decided to leave and ended up transferring to Lamar to play for Deane....where he didn't see much time.

Everyone else who left after that was one of Crean's guys.

Thanks for the info. I feel that it is not surprising people would back out when Crean left and Buzz should not be blamed at all. Crean established himself here for 9 years and had some success. He also had 3 players in the NBA at the point when he left. Very good players are going to come and want to play for him, and play at MU because of him. So when he is no longer here, and a new coach comes in, of course people are going to transfer. 4 star players are going to have other options of places to play right away, and if the coach they committed to is going to leave, they will have plenty of places to go. By the sounds of it, Hester wasn't having his door getting beaten down with offers to come in and get good minutes.

[Marquette84]

Can you illustrate how the number of departures under Buzz is running more than twice Crean's average?  So far we have Maymon and Roseboro - with Maymon likely transferring only due to his delusional father, and Roseboro pretty much came to the conclusion that he was way overmatched at the MU level.  Please don't tell me you are going to throw Hazel in the mix, as he was pretty much dismissed for his off-court transgression.  I also wouldn't think you would throw Mbawke, Taylor, NIck Williams, or Scott C in the mix.  

First, I don't include Nick Williams or Tyshawn Taylor.  The story for Buzz is bad enough without including those players.  

Second, I don't delve into extenuating circumstances.  Crean never got a pass for such circumstances--why should Buzz?  

You bring up Roseboro saying we shouldn't count him because he felt he was mismatched.  What do you call Menard?  Or Hester?  or Howard?

You bring up Maymon's father.  Fine, then give Crean a pass for ODB's handlers.  Both players left based largely on external influences telling the player they were being misused and their chances at NBA success are greater if they transfer.  

I don't buy your excuse on Hazel either.  Crean got digned for transfers by  players with off court transgressions (Bell, J. Matthews, Mortenson), so I see no reason to give Buzz a pass on Hazel.  

I also don't see much of a difference between Clark and Saunders.  Both never made it to campus based on their pre-arrival arrest record.  

I'm including the reneged commitment of Bowen--I cannot any under Crean where a verbally committed recruit backed away.  If you can remember one, I'll add him to the list.

Finally, I include Acker on Buzz's list. He was dismissed and only re-invited because of the season-ending injury to Cadougan.  

So here's the list.

Buzz:  2 years, 9 departures, 4.5 per season:
1.  Christopherson
2.  Mbakwe
3.  Roseboro
4.  Maymon
5.  Acker (later reinstated)
6.  Clark (recruited/never played)
7.  Bowen (backed out of commitment)
8.  Hazel
9.  Rumored Departure to make room for the "Mystery Recruit"

Crean - 9 years, 13 departures, 1.4 per season.
1. Hester
2. Menard
3. Howard
4. ODB
5. James Matthews (recruited/never played)
6. Mason
7. Bradley
8. Bell
9. Mortenson (recruited/never played)
10. Christian
11. Berkowitz
12. Amo
13. Saunders (recruited/never played)

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

There weren't any recruits to back out.

Deane only had one player coming in, Krunti Hester.  Crean honored his signing, and Krunti came here for his first year.  Once here, Crean told him he wouldn't ever see more than garbage minutes, so Krunti decided to leave and ended up transferring to Lamar to play for Deane....where he didn't see much time.

Everyone else who left after that was one of Crean's guys.

WHAT ARE YOU?!  Some kind of all-knowing college basketball cyborg?

I have a message board mancrush on bma725, and I don't care what you think about that.

Anyways...

I hope Mbao stays and develops into a monster.  I don't know what's going on with the roster, but I remember a tiny rumor about Reggie Smith possibly not qualifying or something...I don't know.  I have no idea what's going on with the roster, and I'm eager as everyone else to hopefully find out soon.  

If we are bringing in someone, though, and it's at Mbao's expense, he better be a BEAST.  (I'm not talkin' Brett Roseboro-beast neither.)

[Clam Crowder]

If you want to win, you do what you have to do. IMO it doesn't matter who leaves it's who we have on the floor and if they win I think everyone should be content with that. Let's drop the worries of hurting these guys feelings because then were saying that we should keep players that just are awful. Roseboro, as evidenced by his performance at St. Bonaventure was no loss. If we win im happy

[bma725]

Finally, I include Acker on Buzz's list. He was dismissed and only re-invited because of the season-ending injury to Cadougan.  

Seriously, how many times do people have to remind you that Acker didn't come back because of the injury to Cadougan before you stop stating it like it's an absolute fact.

Mo came back to the team on August 30th.  Junior got injured September 17th.  Unless you think Mo is a f'n pyschic, he did not come back because of the injury.

[cheebs09]

Buzz:  2 years, 9 departures, 4.5 per season:
1.  Christopherson
2.  Mbakwe
3.  Roseboro
4.  Maymon
5.  Acker (later reinstated)
6.  Clark (recruited/never played)
7.  Bowen (backed out of commitment)
8.  Hazel
9.  Mbao

He hasn't transferred yet.

[Canadian Dimes]

You cherry pick the two best players that left over nine years of Crean and then compare to worst players that left Buzz?  I know you're biased, but not even you could believe anyone would accept that as a fair comparison

Here's the more reasonable comparision:
Losing ODB and Mason is comparable to losing Mbakwe and Maymon.  

Losing Amo or Christian is comparable to losing Christopherson or Hazel.

Losing Saunders is comparable to losing Clark.

Losing Hester and Menard is comparable to losing Roseboro or Mbao.

Both Crean and Buzz lost the same type of players from the top through the bottom of the roster.

The difference is that Crean saw 13 players/recruits leave the program over 9 years (1.4 per season).  Buzz has had 9 (if we include Acker, who he begged back) in two seasons (4.5).  Even if we exclude Acker, the rate of departures is almost three times the rate under Crean.

I'm also surprised you now call Mbao a "12th man" given this statement:
So which is he? A future All-Big-East player?  Or a 12th man?  Sounds like you want to play both ways on this one.

wow i think your lust louds your judgemtn.  Forget the names.  My issue with Crean was twoo fold. 1.  he brought in 2-3 terrible players for every good one.  causing us to always be incredibly thin.  2.  I did not have ahuge problem with his transfers except that with Crean they were in a number of cases starters, team captains, players that were to be heavily counted on.

None of those issues pertain to Buzz at this point.  If buzz signes 2-3  one and 2 star players a year that prove to be way over their head and then leave or dont leave and leave us with 5-6-7 BE caliber players and in addition to this if he has a number of those good players also transfer then I will have a problem with Buzz like I did with Crean in this area.

I do think MBoa will be a decent player over time.  but that is my opinion if Buzz looks at it a MBAo has reached a celing or will never get any better and gleans his 12-13th man then that is Buzzes perogative.  What cant you understand about that?  Mabe Mbao does not work hard?  Maybe Mbao is not the odd man out if he brings someone else in? there are a million different things that could happen.  But until Buzz has two returning starters that have been named team captain transfer out I will not compare him to Crean.  Also, Buzzes 1 and 2 star recruits have heretofore proven to be vastly underated by the gurus.  creans 1 and 2 star recruits were dead on nailed.  Showing one of two things either Crean has zero eye for talent or he cannot attract btter players.  Two great reasons for him to no longer be coaching at MU ...not matter how your lust for him clouds your judgement

[Marquette84]

The irony in your entire post is amazing.

You two are both the most biased people on this board.

by a LONG shot.

How am I biased?

Please, specific examples.  

Marquette84, are you talking about Monterale Clark? That's not one Buzz lost, that's a guy whose offer was rescinded by Marquette when he was charged with felony sexual assault:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/59569142.html

Yes.  Same guy. 

As I said, comparable to situation with Saunders.  

Two players.  Both arrested.  Neither ever plays for MU.

I won't argue with you that Clark was arrested for a more serious crime.  I'm not going to debate whether its okay for our recruits to be arrested for drug possession but we draw the line at sexual assault.

I'm happy to take Clark off Buzz's list, but then we have to take Saunders off Crean's list of transfers.  

Seriously, how many times do people have to remind you that Acker didn't come back because of the injury to Cadougan before you stop stating it like it's an absolute fact.

Mo came back to the team on August 30th.  Junior got injured September 17th.  Unless you think Mo is a f'n pyschic, he did not come back because of the injury.

Thank you.  I stand corrected.  

But it doesn't really affect the comparison--regardless of the reason he came back, he still left the team.

[RJax55]

Seriously, how many times do people have to remind you that Acker didn't come back because of the injury to Cadougan before you stop stating it like it's an absolute fact.

Mo came back to the team on August 30th.  Junior got injured September 17th.  Unless you think Mo is a f'n pyschic, he did not come back because of the injury.

BMA, Acker is a good friend of Miss Cleo, thought you knew that.

Love how 84 includes Bowen and Clark as departures. Doesn't one have to arrive first, in order to depart?

[Jacks DC]

It will be very disappointing if Mbao leaves.  Regardless of how you can explain away individual situations, Buzz will get a reputation for not being able to develop big men and not showing commitment to "project" type post players.

The Maymon, Clark, Mbakwe, Hazel and Roseboro situations were embarrassing any way you cut it.  I don't necessarily blame Buzz for each one but the headline is still that another big man has left the program.  I don't know the circumstances but if we add Mbao to the list that just adds to the problem, especially since we do not have anyone on the roster with a similar skill set and he has been viewed as a project since the day he arrived.  

Most seven footers simply take time to develop into productive players.  Some programs demonstrate the ability to develop them and some don't.  Look at UConn.  How many 6-10+ players have gone there and contributed almost nothing for two or three years only to be extremely productive as seniors?  Gavin Edwards is the perfect example.