collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Transfer Portal by Its DJOver
[Today at 12:28:22 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by Oldgym
[Today at 12:14:42 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by the eagle
[Today at 11:39:07 AM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by BrewCity83
[Today at 11:26:20 AM]


NC State by MUMountin
[Today at 11:25:44 AM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Uncle Rico
[Today at 11:15:58 AM]


Kam Jones 1st Round Mock - The Ringer by PGsHeroes32
[Today at 10:50:38 AM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired  (Read 11168 times)

WarriorHal

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 707
P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« on: April 09, 2010, 10:00:46 AM »
North Dakota decisions end Fighting Sioux nickname
(AP)

MAYVILLE, N.D. — The Fighting Sioux nickname is gone for good at the University of North Dakota.

On Thursday, decisions by North Dakota's Supreme Court and Board of Higher Education led to the retirement of the long-disputed nickname.

The court ruled that the board had the authority to dump the nickname at any time. The court rejected an appeal that sought to delay action.

The board had voted last May to retire the nickname. A motion Thursday to reconsider that vote died.

Board president Richie Smith says he thinks no further action is required to end the nickname.

The court agreed to hear an expedited appeal after university officials pleaded with the board to decide the issue quickly so the school could pursue admission to the Summit League.

6746jonesr

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 10:10:38 AM »
I would encourage you to read the book "Beyond the Cheers:  Race as Spectacle in College Sport." (by King and Springwood) It might make you re-think your position on this issue.  Go Fighting Whities.

Skatastrophy

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5517
  • ✅ Verified Member
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 10:15:35 AM »
Go Fighting Whities.

If that was supposed to win your argument for political correctness you definitely failed with me.  A team name is just a team name.

Or were you expecting more of a, "OMG don't call me white!  You've deeply offended me and my people by inferring that we fight as well!!!"  I hope that this overly sensitive thing is a fad that fades in a couple years because it's exhausting.

M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 10:16:40 AM »
I would encourage you to read the book "Beyond the Cheers:  Race as Spectacle in College Sport." (by King and Springwood) It might make you re-think your position on this issue.  Go Fighting Whities.

the funny thing about your post is that "fighting whities" would probably considered exclusionary and not racist in the least.

PuertoRicanNightmare

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3241
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 10:28:00 AM »
I would encourage you to read the book "Beyond the Cheers:  Race as Spectacle in College Sport." (by King and Springwood) It might make you re-think your position on this issue.  Go Fighting Whities.

Wow. You must be well read.

I admire people who purchase books, glean the conclusions of the authors and form their opinions as a result. Books like that are useful when we're not sure how to think for ourselves.

WellsstreetWanderer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 10:44:40 AM »
most intellectually interested people read books for stimulation.  One has to continuosly bounce ideas off  similiar and contrary arguments to formulate and solidify their stances. Only the intellectually lazy read only supporting arguments.
I assume most here,because of their education, want to be challenged and

Skatastrophy

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5517
  • ✅ Verified Member
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 11:07:22 AM »

I assume most here,because of their education, want to be challenged and

and... AND....? I can't stand cliffhangers!

MarquetteDano

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3230
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 11:32:15 AM »
I would encourage you to read the book "Beyond the Cheers:  Race as Spectacle in College Sport." (by King and Springwood) It might make you re-think your position on this issue.  Go Fighting Whities.

I hear what you are saying and I did not read said book.  However, in this case didn't the tribe in question actually have the injunction to keep the name?  I would understand if the Sioux were protesting but they wanted it kept.  It was the administration that did not.  I imagine like anything that people have differing opinions within the Sioux so maybe there was a minority within them that were offended by it.

I am going to regret saying this due to the arguing in this thread after this but you look at the names out there (some still remaining)...

Redmen
Fighting Sioux
Seminoles (along with tomahawk chop)
Utes
Indians (Akron old name)
Savages!  (Eastern Washington old name until 1973)
Orangemen


How is Warriors even close to these names in terms of being demeaning?  I mean the Savages?  Holy crap.

ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 11:43:55 AM »
Wow. You must be well read.

I admire people who purchase books, glean the conclusions of the authors and form their opinions as a result. Books like that are useful when we're not sure how to think for ourselves.

  Don't like books, eh?  It shows, Boss.

PuertoRicanNightmare

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3241
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 11:58:30 AM »
  Don't like books, eh?  It shows, Boss.

Not books written by race-baiters.

And frankly, I'm not interested in reading a single book that would suggest that a name like "Warriors" or "Braves" or "Fighting" anythings is in any way, shape or form derogatory. Every single one of them came along as way of paying tribute to a proud Native American history. Sadly, people like this author are going out of their way to try to tell us that calling somebody a "Warrior" is a bad thing. The guy is a loser and if you agree with him, so are you.

WarriorHal

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 707
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 12:13:54 PM »
It sounds like there was widespread support among the Sioux for keeping the name & log, but the leaders of one tribe were opposed and refused to hold a referendum. That sealed the deal. Minority rules these days.   


By: Chuck Haga, Grand Forks Herald

UND Fighting Sioux logo
Board rules to retire nickname
 
MAYVILLE, N.D. — In the end, the decision came with a shrug and a sigh.

The Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, cherished symbols of UND athletic teams for nearly 80 years, must be consigned to history, the State Board of Higher Education ruled here Thursday.

The board directed Chancellor Bill Goetz to immediately advise UND President Robert Kelley by letter that the university should begin its transition away from the logo and nickname.

Kelley, who was at the meeting, said afterward that he plans to call the president of the Summit League Friday “and say that the board finally acted,” clearing the way for UND’s application for league membership.

UND officials called a news conference for Friday morning and posted on its Web site an initial piece of the planned transition: The university athletic teams will continue to be called the Sioux through the 2010-2011 school year while the school considers alternatives.

Board President Richie Smith brought up the logo issue at the end of an all-day meeting, noting that the North Dakota Supreme Court earlier Thursday had affirmed a district court ruling against logo supporters in the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe.

The board had voted in a May 2009 meeting in Dickinson, N.D., to retire the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo starting Oct. 1, a deadline later extended to Nov. 30, unless the university could win approval and a 30-year commitment from the two namesake tribes.

Spirit Lake voters had OK’d continued use of the symbols in April 2009, but Standing Rock tribal officials have thus far refused to hold a referendum.

The tribes’ approval was mandated by the settlement of a lawsuit UND brought against the NCAA, which considers Indian nicknames and logos abusive.

The hard-fought, four-year legal battle aroused great passions on both sides, and it was complicated by divisions within the tribes — divisions which logo opponents cited as evidence of the nickname’s negative impact on tribal life and, especially, Indian students at UND.

The wrangling came to a head in recent months as some logo supporters at Spirit Lake sought an injunction against the board dropping the nickname until arrangements could be made for a referendum or tribal council vote at Standing Rock Sioux Reservation.

A district court judge ruled against the logo supporters and threw out the injunction, and the state Supreme Court upheld the lower court’s action Thursday morning — issuing its opinion about the time the State Board assembled in Mayville for its monthly meeting.

Sadness, feelings of resignation

At the start of the meeting, board member Grant Shaft of Grand Forks offered a brief update on the issue, saying that the board was still waiting for the Supreme Court to act.

The Supreme Court’s opinion, essentially telling the State Board that it was free to act on the matter, caused Smith to raise the issue again at the meeting’s conclusion.

Lifting the injunction put the board’s 2009 action back into effect, he said, and “unless I hear a motion to reconsider, the name is dropped.”

After a pause, board member Claus Lembke of Bismarck offered a motion to reconsider.

“A minority has been dictating this,” Lembke said. “I feel for UND, but one way or another they need to know. … We have given in to a minority of people on this issue.”

His motion failed for lack of a second.

“We didn’t have the votes,” Shaft said later. He and board member Duaine Espegard, also of Grand Forks, had calculated a vote to reconsider would fail on a 4-4 tie.

“I am a longtime Grand Forks kid, so I find it kind of sad,” Shaft said.

Espegard agreed. “I think it is a sad day,” he said. “I don’t look at it as a win for anybody. I see it as reality.”

Some who have especially championed retention of the logo refused to accept the decision as final.

Jody Hodgson, general manager of logo-festooned Ralph Engelstad Arena, called the board’s timing poor. He said Standing Rock Tribal Chairman Charles W. Murphy was scheduled to meet with the tribe’s judicial committee next week to discuss a 1,000-signature petition filed by nickname supporters seeking to put the nickname issue to a vote.

A Standing Rock tribal referendum still is “an absolute possibility,” Hodgson said. “What if they did that? What would the State Board do then? Would the State Board step up and honor the wishes of the tribes?”

B.J. Rainbow, a UND senior who has ties to the Lakota tribes in Spirit Lake and Standing Rock and opposes keeping the logo, attended Thursday’s meeting to talk about Native American scholarship programs.

He said he stuck around, hoping to see the board act on the logo.

“I wish they’d move forward now that it’s in their hands,” he said.

“Time is on our side,” Rainbow said. “The original (Nov. 30) deadline is coming. It definitely feels like change is coming.”

Rainbow said he hopes that next week’s Wacipi Time Out at UND, an annual celebration and exposition including traditional dance contests and lectures, will help to “educate people so any backlash is minimal.”

Erich Longie, a logo opponent at Spirit Lake, said he was pleased by the board’s action.

“It’s a historic thing,” he said. “And it was a long time coming.”

Sad day for Indians?

Earl Strinden, former head of the UND Alumni Association, had worked to reach out to tribal members to win support for the logo, and he said there is broad support.

“This is very sad,” he said of the board’s action.

Strinden said he learned of the decision in a dispirited phone call from Eunice Davidson, a leader of nickname supporters at Spirit Lake.

“I feel like we’ve been used by the State Board,” Davidson told the Herald.

“Last year when we had our vote out here on Spirit Lake, it was 67 percent by our members in favor” of keeping the nickname, she said. Only a month later, she said, the board announced it was taking steps to get ready to change the name.

“Why did they put it out in the media, why did they lead us to believe if we got the vote it would be OK?”

Also disappointed was Bennett Brien, the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa artist who designed the logo displayed on UND uniforms and throughout the Engelstad arena.

“Well, political correctness has reared its ugly head,” he said about the board decision. “I knew it was going to happen. Now they will put some stupid-ass animal on the logo.”

‘A new set of challenges’

Kelley said the board’s action was not a surprise, and he’s prepared to move on.

“It is a matter now of managing a transition,” he said.

“I am happy to have a new set of problems to solve,” he said. “This is going to be a new set of challenges, and it is going to be hard work for everybody.”

Kelley said that people “all over the country are watching to see how we handle this,” including thousands of UND alumni.

Noting that many alumni are passionate about the logo and nickname, he said they also have proven to be “very resilient.” He hopes to include many of them in the transition process.

Strinden said that while there will be “a lot of disappointed people out there, a lot of very angry people,” he hopes “there will be no drop-off in the loyalty or support for the University.”

Kelley said he’s looking forward to gaining Summit League membership, an important step in UND’s transition to Division I athletics. He said he hopes that “puts us into the game no later than 2013.”

Before the board acted, Kelley said the continuing controversy over the nickname was taking a toll. “The management of that controversy is becoming more and more difficult,” he said.

Asked for specific examples, he said it is affecting the university’s relationship with donors. “Many of our students are uncomfortable, too,” as are many members of the faculty and staff. “It’s very polarizing,” he said.

Kelley said he’s proud of how UND student athletes have handled the struggle over the logo and nickname. “They want to compete,” he said. “It’s not the name and logo that drive their competitiveness.”

Kelley has named a planning task force charged with examining all issues that could arise with retirement of the logo.

“The time it has taken has been necessary,” he said of the long struggle over the nickname, cherished by many but considered offensive by others. “The tribes are independent nations, and they have their government processes.

“I don’t know that there are any surprises left” that should further delay action, he said. “It just requires a decision. … Anything that could be said has been said, and it’s time to reach a resolution and move on.”


ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 12:20:54 PM »
Not books written by race-baiters.

And frankly, I'm not interested in reading a single book that would suggest that a name like "Warriors" or "Braves" or "Fighting" anythings is in any way, shape or form derogatory. Every single one of them came along as way of paying tribute to a proud Native American history. Sadly, people like this author are going out of their way to try to tell us that calling somebody a "Warrior" is a bad thing. The guy is a loser and if you agree with him, so are you.
 

So, you agree that reading books can be good?  No room for an opposing viewpoint in print without being called a loser if one reads it?  Huh? 

PuertoRicanNightmare

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3241
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 12:27:32 PM »
Since you're such an accomplished reader, never misinterpreting anything to make a silly point, maybe you can show me where I indicated reading books is a bad thing.

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2010, 11:31:31 AM »
I would encourage you to read the book "Beyond the Cheers:  Race as Spectacle in College Sport." (by King and Springwood) It might make you re-think your position on this issue.  Go Fighting Whities.

read it...bunch of liberal pc nonsense. 

I encourage you to read the story of the fighting whities to understand who started it and why.  It may open up your eyes to the absurdity of it all.

In 25 or 50 years you just watch how this reverses itself as the newer generations won't even now WTF an Apache, a Sioux, a Seminole, etc even are and someone will demand that these names be used to honor these people.

Just watch

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2010, 01:01:38 PM »
A team name is just a team name.


Exactly.  That is why this debate is silly on both sides.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 02:02:18 PM »

Exactly.  That is why this debate is silly on both sides.

If a team name is just a team name, isn't a little more "silly" to scream "racist" and demand a change than it is to take offense at the name calling and resist change on those grounds? Just sayin.

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 02:24:46 PM »
If a team name is just a team name, isn't a little more "silly" to scream "racist" and demand a change than it is to take offense at the name calling and resist change on those grounds? Just sayin.


No.

I don't have a problem with people taking offense to nicknames like Redmen, Redskins or even Indian.  I don't have a problem with people taking offense to imagery like Willie Wampum and the stupid Illini dance.  However, getting upset about Warriors and even a tribe name is silly.

But the defenders of things like the Illini dance are much, much sillier in my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 02:33:21 PM by The Sultan of South Wayne »

RDonnelly09

  • Walk-On
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 03:39:50 PM »
I hear what you are saying and I did not read said book.  However, in this case didn't the tribe in question actually have the injunction to keep the name?  I would understand if the Sioux were protesting but they wanted it kept.  It was the administration that did not.  I imagine like anything that people have differing opinions within the Sioux so maybe there was a minority within them that were offended by it.

I am going to regret saying this due to the arguing in this thread after this but you look at the names out there (some still remaining)...

Redmen
Fighting Sioux
Seminoles (along with tomahawk chop)
Utes
Indians (Akron old name)
Savages!  (Eastern Washington old name until 1973)
Orangemen


How is Warriors even close to these names in terms of being demeaning?  I mean the Savages?  Holy crap.

It's just Orange now... they're just a bunch of fruit

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 03:43:33 PM »

No.

I don't have a problem with people taking offense to nicknames like Redmen, Redskins or even Indian.  I don't have a problem with people taking offense to imagery like Willie Wampum and the stupid Illini dance.  However, getting upset about Warriors and even a tribe name is silly.

But the defenders of things like the Illini dance are much, much sillier in my opinion.

So, SOMETIMES (Warriors, Fighing Sioux) a name is just a name and and SOMETIMES a name (Redskin) is not just a name but something offensive in and of itself.

I agree with this and so do nearly all of my non-PC bretheren. The PC crowd tends to paint with a much broader brush.


GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 03:55:13 PM »
So, SOMETIMES (Warriors, Fighing Sioux) a name is just a name and and SOMETIMES a name (Redskin) is not just a name but something offensive in and of itself.


Yes.  But the problem is that people don't know where to draw the line.  I mean the stupid Illini dance just went away a couple of years ago.  It should have died when Willie Wampum did. 

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 03:47:11 PM »
I'm just so glad gov't, the NCAA, and other institutions can help us keep everything on the straight and narrow.  Without the guidance, I really don't know where we would all be.

reinko

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 03:53:56 PM »
read it...bunch of liberal pc nonsense. 

I encourage you to read the story of the fighting whities to understand who started it and why.  It may open up your eyes to the absurdity of it all.

In 25 or 50 years you just watch how this reverses itself as the newer generations won't even now WTF an Apache, a Sioux, a Seminole, etc even are and someone will demand that these names be used to honor these people.

Just watch

But you have to admit Chicos, if in 50 years, people are still griping about whether or not a college sports team has it's nickname from Native American ancestry, the world will be in a pretty good place. 

I forsee many a more issue with this world (population explosion, world economy, the environment, energy, the ever popular religious wars, terrorism...)

ChicosBailBonds

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22695
  • #AllInnocentLivesMatter
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 04:42:32 PM »
But you have to admit Chicos, if in 50 years, people are still griping about whether or not a college sports team has it's nickname from Native American ancestry, the world will be in a pretty good place. 

I forsee many a more issue with this world (population explosion, world economy, the environment, energy, the ever popular religious wars, terrorism...)


Those other things you mentioned have been going on for 1000's of years and will continue for 1000's more.  People have always struggle over energy, natural resources, money, religion, etc, etc.  I don't not expect any of them to stop, and certainly our current Neville Chamberlain isn't going to be halting any of them no matter how delusional people become.

My point is more the absurdity of the entire thing.  This is nothing more than a liberal \ PC BS agenda push.  That's all it is.  If the tribe supports it, then what the hell is wrong?  Basically someone has their undies all wadded up and wants to make a point.  Basically legislating morality, etc...that's all it is.

And in the classic Law of Unintended Consequences that follows so often with these stupid decisions, they often find a way to become circular again years or decades later when they go, "oops".


6746jonesr

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 05:48:31 PM »
So, if we disagree with Chicos we are P.C. or even liberal?   Wow, that really hurts.

Mayor McCheese

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1390
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 09:49:53 PM »
read it...bunch of liberal pc nonsense.  

I encourage you to read the story of the fighting whities to understand who started it and why.  It may open up your eyes to the absurdity of it all.

In 25 or 50 years you just watch how this reverses itself as the newer generations won't even now WTF an Apache, a Sioux, a Seminole, etc even are and someone will demand that these names be used to honor these people.

Just watch

Chicos... for the past few years, I have basically agreed on every stance that you have... except for this one.

Now I am not stating that we need to trash all the names that have some sort of a derogatory term, but I guess I will state my opinion on the matter.

In my History class that I teach (U.S. History), we take a look at how history was, not how it was printed in a very American-Centered Thinking textbook (one of the main reasons why my class uses no text book.  We take a look at our history as a nation from the accounts themselves, primary sources, etc.

Having individuals dress up as Indians and dance around at halftime of a game, does that really tell the newer generation WHO the Sioux were, or Apache, etc.  Does it really show the newer generation the real side of the Sioux(I will use this one as this group is the one that is at the center of discussion)... I would find it hard to believe that many individuals who go to UND truly don't know the story of the Sioux, who they are, their customs, etc.  What does a mascot dancing at halftime, or tshirts with a logo of an indian headdress really do for the Sioux nation?

Call me a P.C. Liberal whatever, but if your argument is if we take away Indian names from sports, our newer generation won't know the Native Americans, then maybe we should give them the dignity they deserve, and explain how the Europeans slaughtered Native tribes, took their land, put them on showcase, put them in Circus shows and Buffalo Bill shows, and make a mockery of their lifestyle, because its not like "us".
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

pure genius stuff by Bill Simmons, remember to read day 2

MUBurrow

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1392
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 11:31:38 PM »
Quote
It sounds like there was widespread support among the Sioux for keeping the name & log, but the leaders of one tribe were opposed and refused to hold a referendum. That sealed the deal. Minority rules these days. 

For what its worth, when it comes to race issues, Minority does (and should) rule.  That is the essence of examining racial classifications/distinctions - that they are not up for majority vote or debate.  It undermines the whole process and value of examining racial issues to use majority opinions and votes, since that majority perspective is what causes racially discriminatory practices to be so pervasive in the first place.  In that way, eliciting majority vs. minority arguments sort of begs the question of the whole issue.

WellsstreetWanderer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 11:34:51 PM »
So you have tyranny by the Minority.  A few misguided souls should not cause the rest to suffer. Sometime common sense and decency must prevail.(but I fear it will not)

reinko

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2010, 06:20:34 AM »
So you have tyranny by the Minority.  A few misguided souls should not cause the rest to suffer. Sometime common sense and decency must prevail.(but I fear it will not)

Please explain how you are suffering because a college nickname change. 

ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2010, 06:51:14 AM »
Since you're such an accomplished reader, never misinterpreting anything to make a silly point, maybe you can show me where I indicated reading books is a bad thing.

Uh, probably from where you indicated your disdain for people who form their opinion as a result of reading.

Canned Goods n Ammo

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5008
  • Ammo, clean shaven Ammo.
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 06:57:41 AM »
Chicos... for the past few years, I have basically agreed on every stance that you have... except for this one.

Now I am not stating that we need to trash all the names that have some sort of a derogatory term, but I guess I will state my opinion on the matter.

In my History class that I teach (U.S. History), we take a look at how history was, not how it was printed in a very American-Centered Thinking textbook (one of the main reasons why my class uses no text book.  We take a look at our history as a nation from the accounts themselves, primary sources, etc.

Having individuals dress up as Indians and dance around at halftime of a game, does that really tell the newer generation WHO the Sioux were, or Apache, etc.  Does it really show the newer generation the real side of the Sioux(I will use this one as this group is the one that is at the center of discussion)... I would find it hard to believe that many individuals who go to UND truly don't know the story of the Sioux, who they are, their customs, etc.  What does a mascot dancing at halftime, or tshirts with a logo of an indian headdress really do for the Sioux nation?

Call me a P.C. Liberal whatever, but if your argument is if we take away Indian names from sports, our newer generation won't know the Native Americans, then maybe we should give them the dignity they deserve, and explain how the Europeans slaughtered Native tribes, took their land, put them on showcase, put them in Circus shows and Buffalo Bill shows, and make a mockery of their lifestyle, because its not like "us".

Great post.

Also, in your last paragraph, I know none of us really want to admit that those things are true... but let's face it, they are.

The Natives were not all innocent, peaceful tribes like Hollywood sometimes portrays them... but that doesn't mean they were treated fairly or with any discretion.

EDIT: to be more specific, I think general names like "warriors" are obviously fine, but names like "redskins" is not really helping the cause. I'm not actively protesting against any or these names, but I'm not going to shed a tear when they get replaced.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 07:18:50 AM by 2002MUalum »

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2010, 08:01:42 AM »
Great post.

Also, in your last paragraph, I know none of us really want to admit that those things are true... but let's face it, they are.

The Natives were not all innocent, peaceful tribes like Hollywood sometimes portrays them... but that doesn't mean they were treated fairly or with any discretion.

EDIT: to be more specific, I think general names like "warriors" are obviously fine, but names like "redskins" is not really helping the cause. I'm not actively protesting against any or these names, but I'm not going to shed a tear when they get replaced.


That is pretty much where I stand as well.  If people would have been respectful from the beginning, this would never have been an issue.  But instead, schools used obviously disrespectful imagery such as Willie Wampum, the dancing Illini, etc.  And now they are told to "get over it....it's just a name."  Give me a break.

M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2010, 09:56:22 AM »
The Mich st.  Spartan looks like a cartoon character.  he makes a mochery of the spartans
The eagle MU uses is especially close to one of our nations symbols.  how dare we use it
LSU has a tiger caged, the PETA people must be in outrage
Texas parades a long horn on the field for football games
the Duke Blue Devil deeply offends the Christian in me and makes a mochery or religion

All of these offend me

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: P.C. Wins Again--Fighting Sioux Retired
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2010, 10:10:10 AM »
Since it's a Marquette forum, I'll center on us. I think that taking the Indian Head logo away would have been enough. There's plenty of Warriors icons that could have been perfectly acceptable. Personally, I always dreamed of a day that we would re-mold our sports imagery to the legendary Warriors movie from the 1970s. Imagine the BC going dark, then hearing the clink of glass bottles, slowly building, until the blood-curdling shout "Warriors, come out to play-yay!" as the team takes the court. Never happen at a Catholic school, but I still tried sending in a letter to the committee during the whole Gold fiasco.

I'd love to see Golden Warriors. Don't know what they'd go with as a mascot, but it would be a nice compromise between the recent history and the storied past of the university.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.