What should be MU's next campus improvement priority?

[GGGG]

Huh? You mean the four non academic and the one academic I cited? That's how it's consistently non-academic.

The Library is an academic building.  That would mean four either recently completed or in the works.

Campus Towne was by and large 1990s.  The Al and administrative building were the two I cited.

[4everwarriors]

???

Eyed the "Ahoya" plates on southbound I-43 last night. Figured it was you, but the wheels have improved.

[Coleman]

I was being sarcasting about not enough existing administrative buildings ...

The administration already has the 707, AMU, Holthusen, 500 North, O'Hara and Marquette Hall for almost completely administrative functions. Add on to that Coughlin and the Academic Support Facility for faculty support. (BTW, we're making some faculty walk to 17th and Wells for their offices but Res Life must be on 12th and Wisc?) And then other (again, purely administrative) offices in Carpenter, Straz and Campus Towne (Bursar, Les Aspin).

Marquette could have put a new College of Business building or even the new Law School right on Wisconsin Avenue. Instead, the Law School is going to face the Interchange and the Advance and PR groups get a centralized campus location.

How about the faculty and administration of the College of Communication ask to swap with the Office of Res Life? Who should get an 80 (or whatever) year building and who should get a brand new building? The Bursar Office or an actual academic department?

I hear you, but your facts are a little dated. I believe Bursar is moving to the new building and Marquette Hall has lost most of its administrative functions (Admissions, College of Arts and Sciences). Word on the street is that O'Hara Hall is coming down as well.

[mu_hilltopper]

Eyed the "Ahoya" plates on southbound I-43 last night. Figured it was you, but the wheels have improved.

Ah.  Actually, no.  The Ahoya plates have been on the FX from the beginning.  Love that car.

[4everwarriors]

Next time I'll pull up next to you and flash a pic of Crean and Crimson. Then, you'll know it's me.

[🏀]

First and foremost, topper is right. Cost containment needs to be stressed. While a lot of the new construction is donation-exclusive, the cost thereafter is not.

As for warrior07, Zilber Hall, the new administration building is easily the best idea I've ever heard of. Consolidating the 9-10 locations around campus into one easy location is great. Having to walk across campus to fill out a document only to walk across campus to pay for said document is ridiculous. Not too mention the Admissions office inside Marquette Hall was a disgrace for incoming students. Have you tried getting in and out of that building during passing periods?

All of the vacated locations will be reincorporated into their locations. Carpenter is going to have a new computer lab/study lounge instead of Res Life. The Bursar's Office is going to be transformed into a revenue generating storefront for Campus Town. O'Hara Hall is to be removed for green space. 707 is for the Office of Professional Studies, a department that could use some more interest from the University for a downtown campus. Holthusen is gone. Marquette Hall is being phased out of all administrative offices and is said to be renovated into classrooms.

Also, having Eckstein Hall face the Interchange is smart. We have a beautiful glass improvement in the middle of the premiere interchange in the state. Thousands of people a day will stare at Eckstein, and it looks damn good.

The Engineering Discovery Center will also be a gem at 16th and Wisconsin. This is why I voted for McCormick to be torn down. Hagerty Hall is to be transfromed for use to the Science Departments.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.

How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.

But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.

IMO, the "best idea I've ever heard of" would be to ditch that dinosaur with the one elevator Straz and put up a new prominent COB right on Wisconsin Avenue that students, locals and visitors can drive by and easily access.

That being said, it's nice to see that O'Hara will be torn down ... with the LS up there is almost no green space on campus now. Is the auditorium attached to Holthusen being taken down as well?

[GGGG]

Why do you think that the most prominent academic buildings should be on Wisconsin Avenue?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Answer: NOTHING!

All these buildings cost $$$ to build and $$$ to maintain.  Tuition increases are outstripping inflation by several factors (5.6% this year versus the CPI which is basically flat) .. as I said in the other thread: the long term universe of people who can afford MU (and all private colleges) is decreasing every year.

MU's physical plant is superlative already.  Sure, you can find spots that aren't palaces, but the idea that MU needs to "keep up" with other schools is self-fulfilling balderdash, destructive in the long run.

MU needs to do everything in its power to cost-contain or it will fail its mission in the decades ahead.  

I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but disagree on this approach.  If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc.  If we are lagging because of facilities, why would someone want to pay the tuition we are asking when the student won't get what they can at another school.

MU should be spending money to update those facilities that need updating (like they did with the Engineering, Dental and Law schools).  Those three facilities were inadequate and we spent to improve them and make them modern.

If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.

Have to spend money to make money.  If we hunker down then we're ceding a good part of the university's future to attract students.

In years past, the notion of hunkering down is why we no longer have a Medical school or a football team.  We would be in a much better place right now if we had both.

[GGGG]

Chicos, those are very good points.  I went to MU in the late 80s...probably at the University's low point.  The facilities were pretty spartan back then.  When I was leaving is when they opened up AMU with Cudahy soon to follow.  That sparked the turn around that has continued to this day.

As long as those buildings are built with donated money, it will have no real affect on student tuition.

I'm also going to agree with you big time on the medical school.  Even if it was located where MCW is now, it would be better if it were Marquette Medical School.

[4everwarriors]

[I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but disagree on this approach.  If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc.  If we are lagging because of facilities, why would someone want to pay the tuition we are asking when the student won't get what they can at another school.]

MU should be spending money to update those facilities that need updating (like they did with the Engineering, Dental and Law schools).  Those three facilities were inadequate and we spent to improve them and make them modern.

If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.

Have to spend money to make money.  If we hunker down then we're ceding a good part of the university's future to attract students.

In years past, the notion of hunkering down is why we no longer have a Medical school or a football team.  We would be in a much better place right now if we had both.

MU's endowment needs to be increased. The school is what it is, in spite of it's pathetic bank account.

[Brewtown Andy]

If that has to be done with the Chemisty, Physics, and Life Sciences buildings, then MU should be investing there as well.

Three entire floors of the Chemistry building have been gutted down to the studs and remodeled.

[Brewtown Andy]

I hear you, but your facts are a little dated. I believe Bursar is moving to the new building and Marquette Hall has lost most of its administrative functions (Admissions, College of Arts and Sciences). Word on the street is that O'Hara Hall is coming down as well.

A&S is still in Marquette Hall, but the Registrar and Admissions are both already out.  The Bursar is in Zilber, and O'Hara Hall currently sits empty, as does 500 North.  About half of the offices in 707 and Holthusen have moved to Zilber as well.

I *THINK* the plan is to move everything out of Academic Support and the Helfaer building and relocate Child Care as well.  Not to Zilber, mind you, but somewhere else, because those 3 buildings are decrepit.

[mu_hilltopper]

 If MU is to continue to attract good students, they need to have quality infrastructure, quality professors, etc.

The only problem with that concept is that .. at no point will anyone say "ok, we have enough" and that leads to constant spending, often for spending's sake because, well for the love of god, we've got to improve.  If you're not first, you're last.  --  This isn't an electronics company, in desperate need to innovate every quarter.

I imagine a MU Trustee meeting, where someone plops down a great plan with the premise it will improve quality of such and such.  Well, improve quality, we've got to improve quality.  Better is better.  We've got to improve always.   Plan approved!

Bottom line, all this improvement is just super.  Super-d-duper.  Unfortunately, the product is going to get so super, so expensive, in the long run, no one will be able to afford the product.  

Then the mission has failed.

(Another note .. aggressive cost containment, even at the detriment of the perception of prestige, I believe, would NOT give MU fewer applicants.  MU would receive more applicants, since the truth is, the prestige level is fine as it is .. if they were a low(er) cost leader, the world would beat a path to their doorstep in this age of outrageous tuition levels.)

[martyconlonontherun]

A&S is still in Marquette Hall, but the Registrar and Admissions are both already out.  The Bursar is in Zilber, and O'Hara Hall currently sits empty, as does 500 North.  About half of the offices in 707 and Holthusen have moved to Zilber as well.

I *THINK* the plan is to move everything out of Academic Support and the Helfaer building and relocate Child Care as well.  Not to Zilber, mind you, but somewhere else, because those 3 buildings are decrepit.

I heard 500 building is for child care because of the huge basement and buzz-in.locked doors.

[martyconlonontherun]

The only problem with that concept is that .. at no point will anyone say "ok, we have enough" and that leads to constant spending, often for spending's sake because, well for the love of god, we've got to improve.  If you're not first, you're last.  --  This isn't an electronics company, in desperate need to innovate every quarter.

I imagine a MU Trustee meeting, where someone plops down a great plan with the premise it will improve quality of such and such.  Well, improve quality, we've got to improve quality.  Better is better.  We've got to improve always.   Plan approved!

Bottom line, all this improvement is just super.  Super-d-duper.  Unfortunately, the product is going to get so super, so expensive, in the long run, no one will be able to afford the product. 

Then the mission has failed.

I don't see that for a long time. Prices have continued to go up in a down economy. Yet, numbers are setting records. I think MU is more likely to fail if it relies on the "quality" of education compared investing in huge, beautiful buildings that keep Marquette relevant.

Of course, a lot of people won't be able to afford it but Marquette really has 2 options. Be a high standard school with new buildings and be expensive as hell. Or they can be a school that slowly becomes obsolete but yet remain affordable for everyone. I think they are making the right choice.

[IAmMarquette]

You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.

How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.

But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.

IMO, the "best idea I've ever heard of" would be to ditch that dinosaur with the one elevator Straz and put up a new prominent COB right on Wisconsin Avenue that students, locals and visitors can drive by and easily access.

That being said, it's nice to see that O'Hara will be torn down ... with the LS up there is almost no green space on campus now. Is the auditorium attached to Holthusen being taken down as well?

Not a COB grad, are you?

[MUBurrow]

Another note .. aggressive cost containment, even at the detriment of the perception of prestige, I believe, would NOT give MU fewer applicants.  MU would receive more applicants, since the truth is, the prestige level is fine as it is .. if they were a low(er) cost leader, the world would beat a path to their doorstep in this age of outrageous tuition levels.)

Its not a quantity number of applicants issue, its a quality issue.  The true way for Marquette to fail the the mission is for the return on an MU diploma to go down.  Love it or hate it, in this sense it should be run like a fortune 500 company.  The other schools are going to continue to improve, and if you aren't getting better, you're getting worse.  Prestige really isn't fine where it is.  I mean, I guess I know law better than any other field, but its a nice example because there are explicit rankings that applicants all the way to firms actually follow.  With the exception of an aging Marquette mafia firmly established in mke, a MU law degree doesn't travel like it used to.  The overall return on it, compared to a law degree from other schools, has gone down.

[mu_hilltopper]

I don't see that for a long time. Prices have continued to go up in a down economy. Yet, numbers are setting records.

Depends what your definition of a long time is.  If it's 10-20 years, you are right.  20-30-40 years, I believe what I said.   When your product price increases outstrip inflation by large factors, outstrip income growth .. every single day that clicks by, the universe of your customers gets smaller.

Indeed, as you write, application numbers go up every year.  I guarantee they will continue to rise, perhaps forever (longer than my previous time horizon) because the internet has made it increasingly easier to apply, and schools want big numbers.    Parents want to catch a lot of fish in the net, see what financial deals each schools give.   That's the new game.

[mu_hilltopper]

Its not a quantity number of applicants issue, its a quality issue.  The true way for Marquette to fail the the mission is for the return on an MU diploma to go down.  Love it or hate it, in this sense it should be run like a fortune 500 company.  The other schools are going to continue to improve, and if you aren't getting better, you're getting worse.  Prestige really isn't fine where it is. 

You should be on MU's board of Trustees.   You'd fit right in.

[MUBurrow]

and you would fit well on UW - River Falls'

[martyconlonontherun]

Depends what your definition of a long time is.  If it's 10-20 years, you are right.  20-30-40 years, I believe what I said.   When your product price increases outstrip inflation by large factors, outstrip income growth .. every single day that clicks by, the universe of your customers gets smaller.

Well, I feel like if there are no more buildings in the next 20 years, cost won't be the reason that students wouldn't be considering Marquette.

Indeed, as you write, application numbers go up every year.  I guarantee they will continue to rise, perhaps forever (longer than my previous time horizon) because the internet has made it increasingly easier to apply, and schools want big numbers.    Parents want to catch a lot of fish in the net, see what financial deals each schools give.   That's the new game.

I wasn't talking about applicants. Isn't enrollment up with the highest incoming GPA's and ACTs scores?

[Brewtown Andy]

You have some good points. But I'm not convinced. First, I think that location on Wisconsin Ave. is prime territory for a much more serious project. A new College of Biz. Maybe a new College of Comm. There's no reason that Marquette can't tear down the crap on Wells on either side of 12th street that it now owns and put a building there.

There are environmental issues with the old dry cleaners and legal issues with the lease for Hegarty's that prevent any movement there.

How often do students visit the offices you've mentioned? Once a month? Does it make sense to have a really nice office where students can (maybe ironically...) pay their bills once a month or a building where they'll have classes 5 times a week? I don't argue that having all the bureaucracies in one location is a bad potential idea.

But it is silly and selfish for the administrative bureaucracies to use prime real estate and limited donations for a building students will use much less than a building they study and take classes in.

Don't forget that admissions and financial aid is in that building, too. Every single tour of campus starts there.

[Hards Alumni]

So many awful building to be torn down and replaced... so little time.

Things that do NOT need to be replaced:
Rec Center
CoB building


Things to seriously consider tearing down...
McCormick Hall
Lalumiere


just a question... is the Varsity theatre still around?  If not, that building needs to GO.

[chapman]

Not too mention the Admissions office inside Marquette Hall was a disgrace for incoming students.

As well as prospective students...I mean I had my mind made up before going on the "official" campus tour, but sending a student who didn't know where they wanted to go to school to an old dumpy building to start their tour doesn't give a good first impression.  Also, I too have had to travel from the 1212 building to take care of some admin issues all the way to the bursar which was near OP, and then back again.  The admin building was very necessary.

Agreed on the CoB need (yes, former CoB student bias).  The building is poorly designed (at least for what it's being used for).  Frustrating to spend your entire day there, literally running into people on the stairs or getting hit by the doors in the entranceway, never being able to sit down to study or eat your lunch or to get to a computer because it's terribly congested and has maybe half the ideal amount of seating and computers.  Once you get to floors 2-5 there's nothing but a bunch of classrooms that professors complain aren't designed and fitted out well enough to help them teach.  Having been in UW and Villanova's CoB buildings in the past year, ours is almost shameful.  There is a little mix n’ matching and prioritization that can be done.  Lalamiere’s purpose could be more than adequately served within the current CoB building.  Tear down Lalamiere and put an impressive CoB building that serves the students adequately, competes with some of the best schools and can be seen from the highway.

Communications as well...I mean, we all love to rip on the communications students, but the building had asbestos a few years back and is in really sad shape...do they show it to prospective basketball recruits, all of which end up in the College of Communications?  And if so, pretty embarrassing.


Agree with Chicos that we should strive for continual improvement.  Maybe it's not possible to keep putting up three or four impressive buildings in as many years, but there will always be something worth investing in...could be a new building, could be renovations, could be expansions.