Just a poll, not a b*^%$ fight

[ErickJD08]

Just something that crossed my mind with the Indiana Purdue game.  The Indiana team very much resembles Marquette of the past.  A team that struggles with half court sets.  A team that depends on alot of one on one play.  A team that seems to always allow too many open threes.  A team that doesn't get blown out too often and gives a ton of effort. 

Personally, I enjoy watching Buzz's brand of basketball.  When Crean left, I was concerned that there would be a drop in effort because Crean always got his players to leave it all on the court, but Buzz's team is playing with tons of heart (although part of me wonders if credit should be given to Buzz or the team leaders).

I also remember recently a IU buddy saying, "I bet you wish you had Crean back." and I gave a flat "No, you can keep him."  So I post this poll to see what some fellow MU alums felt.  Please... this is not to start some fight, I just want to get an idea of what you guys think about the idea of getting Crean back.

[rocky_warrior]

No brainier.  Buzz got more out of Crean's players than Crean (see: Matthews).  Plus, his recruiting (to get kids to Marquette) seems a lot better to me -at this point.

Plus, I think Buzz reads the message boards   If Crean had done that, we could have helped him out a lot 

[tower912]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

[mugrad99]

  A team that doesn't get blown out too often and gives a ton of effort. 

6 of IU's losses this year are by double digits, including 3 by 20 or more.

The effort thing bugs me. That's something losing coaches say. When I watch this IU team play, I think of the old saying "Be quick, but don't hurry". Crean's teams at IU do not follow that adage. They hurry too much and make too many costly mistakes.


That being said, I have no ill will towards Crean, and wish him the best. I am happy with Buzz.

[4everwarriors]

I'm on the fence with this one.

[avid1010]

I was happy with MU's progression and what TC was doing for MU, there were always questions swirling about his true colors, and he showed those colors when he left in the manner he did.  I'd rather not have someone like that for a coach at MU.

[radome]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

Tower, I think that you said it perfectly.  I was sad to see Crean go, but so far, it has turned out better.  Most importantly though, Buzz' personality, view of life, treatment of players, statements about the university (whatever you think of his Ivy League statement) etc. seem to align with the Marquette mission quite well.  Gotta love his recruiting at this point too.

[connie]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

AWESOME post---agree in every respect (except maybe the lack of a good natured  "tan" shot).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

Well said. I feel the exact same way.

So far, I really like Buzz, so I wouldn't trade back.

[GGGG]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

+1.  Perfectly stated.  And you are right...time to move on and leave him behind.

[The Lens]

I liked what Crean did for MU.    I liked having our games on TV, our name out there in all the media outlets.   I never met the man, so I have no response to all of the posters who didn't like him personally.   I thought he had flaws as a coach and  recruiter, but overall, he did good work at MU.   He left for what, in his mind, is the pinnacle of college basketball.   He isn't the first to leave for what he thought was a better job, he certainly won't be the last.     
      Watching Buzz, I think Crean had peaked at MU.   He wasn't taking us back to a final four any time soon.    I see a different energy from the team.   I see a different energy from the recruiting.    Maybe it is just like buying a new driver and for a month everything goes longer and straighter before your swing flaws come back.   But right now, it just feels like Buzz has a higher ceiling.     It looks like he is going to get a team with 13 high major players.   Maybe not quite next year, but he is getting there.     So, no ill will toward Crean, but I will take Buzz.      And BTW, it is coming up on Lent and two years since he left.   Maybe some people could give up on the hatred for lent.   

+1

[Benny B]

With 78 votes thus far, only 3 to Crean.  My opinion is that this is indicative of the entire MU fan base, not just those passionate fans who post to message boards.

However, if you conducted this poll this past summer, I would bet it would be closer to 60-40 in favor of Buzz, at best.  And it would have been an unfair assessment.   The impression I get amongst regular fans and alums I talk to is that people weren't so upset that we lost our coach as they were dismayed that our former coach implied that MU was simply a stepping stone upon his departure by uttering a single phrase: "It's Indiana... it's Indiana."  Those four words did more damage to the psyches of MU alumni since the travesty of 1994.  Those who may have wanted TC back likely wanted him back for the sake of pride, not for the sake of basketball.

Time heals all wounds, and the fact that Tom Crean has not enjoyed much success at IU speaks volumes about how good we have it here with Buzz.  Those who viewed TC's departure as a snub to the University are now seeing it as an opportunity for a better future.  While still too early in Buzz's career to make a proper assessment, the early returns are very encouraging.  Buzz also says the right things about wanting to be at Marquette (even if some think he isn't being genuine) and respecting its tradition (e.g. the blue sport coat) and that sits well with the the proud MU fan base.

Marquette has a very proud tradition both as an institution and in its basketball program.  Very few schools can match what we have enjoyed over the past 100 years.  Out of 347 D-I schools today, perhaps 340 wish they had a figure like Al McGuire in their past.  Nearly 300 wish they had the championship hardware in their trophy case.  Every game we see a season ticket holder march to center court because they've shown a commitment to MU hoops since the 60's or 70's.  To disrespect that pride will cause harsh feelings, mostly irrational, towards the easiest figure to blame.  But I am glad that those feelings towards TC are finally starting to fade (mostly) and that Buzz is being given his due.

Today, I hope and pray that in Buzz's last game at MU, he breaks down in tears of joy with just a few seconds left in the basketball season and retires the next day.  Unfortunately, that may not become the reality, so I'm simply going to enjoy the ride as long as I can.

[spiral97]

Plus, I think Buzz reads the message boards

Hi Buzz!!!

[mileskishnish72]

Plus, I think Buzz reads the message boards

If so, maybe some sartorial advice - pick outfits that won't show the sweat coming through.  

[MU111]

Plus, I think Buzz reads the message boards

If so, maybe some sartorial advice - pick outfits that won't show the sweat coming through.  

With the great job that Buzz is doing and will likely continue to do, he can rock the sweat-soaked shirts during games all he wants.

On a more serious note, I agree with Tower that Crean did great things for MU but his teams were just starting to show a different energy.  With Buzz, it feels like we're never out of the game, despite the score.  No one dials down the intensity until the buzzer and I think that energy is reflective of our coach.  The recruiting so far is great and I like the in-game coaching.  So, while I was initially disappointed by Crean's departure, it could end up being the best thing that could have happened (ie, we got Buzz).

[thanooj]

I agree curler.  TCs teams played tight.  Even with the three amigos at their best the team was tense, afraid to make mistakes.  awkward offensively.  they wanted to do it RIGHT.  In TCs defense, as it has been stated previously, his teams played hard.  But they were tight.

Buzz's teams are different.  They seem to embody the underdog workmanlike approach of their coach.  They seem to be less tense.  Their problems at the stripe became a hurdle to overcome, but they sure play with heart and passion.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I agree curler.  TCs teams played tight.  Even with the three amigos at their best the team was tense, afraid to make mistakes.  awkward offensively.  they wanted to do it RIGHT.  In TCs defense, as it has been stated previously, his teams played hard.  But they were tight.

Buzz's teams are different.  They seem to embody the underdog workmanlike approach of their coach.  They seem to be less tense.  Their problems at the stripe became a hurdle to overcome, but they sure play with heart and passion.

a team takes on the personality of it's leader.... a nuerotic maniacal tense personality coach cuases for players to play that way. 

I will never forget the last second win Mu had over Loserville when dameon Mason was afreshman.  After the game they asked Dameon ( i was in the media room) if the play was designed to go to him.  He said and someone might find the article but this shoule be pretty verbatim.... " coach called a play in the huddle, but when we walked back on the floor he was yelling for us to run a different play, it was loud and no one knew what to do so i just made a cut and was opened and made a shot" 

Crean over coached and having never played never realized that players play and only egotistically coaches think they are a bigger part of the game than the players are.  a good coach knows to call a play and the results depend on the players ability to execute and a overthinking maniacal coach can be a detriment when he puts too much pressure and confusion upon his players.

another good example of Crean being a terrible coach..i was there for that one too. is when we we blowing ND out early and Crean went ape crap on the sidelines caused a stoppage of the game and completly turned the tide of the game and ND stormed back and beat our fannies.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I expected Crean to leave the following year, either way 10 years (9 in this case) is a long time.  People become agitated, the honeymoon ends, etc.  Just like it will with Buzz.  It's human nature.

Despite the fantasyland predictions by some here, Crean is well liked at IU by the administration and they are happy with what he is doing.  Key is Fred Glass and he's 100% on board.

I'm very happy with Buzz....glad Crean hired him.  So far, he's done a great job.   


Both had significantly different jobs at MU.  Crean had to get us from a program that had 1 Sweet 16 in 25 years to a power program...he did that.  Buzz was hired to keep things together, so far he has done that.

Totally different jobs.

[gumbyandpokey]

Mike Deane was a far better game coach than either Crean or Buzz.

And what have Buzz's teams done better in close, late-game situations than Crean's?  Nothing, imo.

I'll never understand the Buzz worship here.  The team flopped again the NCAA's last season with a late game choke and we'll see what happens the rest of this year.  I'm not defending Crean, either.  He was (literally) one of the biggest jerks on the planet and there could be an incredible thread of Crean stories (I've got a few doozies from someone who worked with him) that would make the biggest Crean haters gasp.  But he did take his team to a final four, even if they got the living crap beat out of them by Kansas once they got there.

I guess I'd vote for Crean, since I can't see one of Buzz's teams ever getting to the final four.

[StillAWarrior]

Both had significantly different jobs at MU.  Crean had to get us from a program that had 1 Sweet 16 in 25 years to a power program...he did that.  Buzz was hired to keep things together, so far he has done that.

Totally different jobs.

I think this is true.  An interesting debate is which job is harder.  I think Buzz's job probably will be harder.

I think Crean did very well for the program and helped get us back on the map.  It certainly wasn't an easy job, but it was made substantially easier because the university made a commitment to the program and opened the checkbook (and alumni also opened the checkbook).  I think Crean gets some credit for making these things happen, but if Wilde hadn't made the commitment, Crean would have failed (and if he doesn't renew it, Buzz will fail).

I think we've moved to another level where just spending more money won't make the program better.  We've got the facilities and the budget.  Now we need to make incremental improvements that will require a talented coach (in all aspects of the job - coaching, recruiting, hiring, scheduling, etc.).  Besides, it's always easier to get to the "top" (relatively speaking) than it is to stay there.

[radome]

Mike Deane was a far better game coach than either Crean or Buzz.

Is this accepted as fact?  Asking the question, not trying to lay a landmine.  I don't know.  Regardless (or is it irregardless ), I think recruiting is still the most important part of CBB and so far, pretty good for Buzz.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

a team takes on the personality of it's leader.... a nuerotic maniacal tense personality coach cuases for players to play that way. 

I will never forget the last second win Mu had over Loserville when dameon Mason was afreshman.  After the game they asked Dameon ( i was in the media room) if the play was designed to go to him.  He said and someone might find the article but this shoule be pretty verbatim.... " coach called a play in the huddle, but when we walked back on the floor he was yelling for us to run a different play, it was loud and no one knew what to do so i just made a cut and was opened and made a shot" 

Crean over coached and having never played never realized that players play and only egotistically coaches think they are a bigger part of the game than the players are.  a good coach knows to call a play and the results depend on the players ability to execute and a overthinking maniacal coach can be a detriment when he puts too much pressure and confusion upon his players.

another good example of Crean being a terrible coach..i was there for that one too. is when we we blowing ND out early and Crean went ape crap on the sidelines caused a stoppage of the game and completly turned the tide of the game and ND stormed back and beat our fannies.   

It's just a poll, not a B*^%$ fight.

[Lennys Tap]

I made my first post on this site about a year ago. My basic premise was that while I thanked TC for what he did for MU I thought Buzz was far superior at coaching those players TC had left behind than Crean had been. One year later I'm even more convinced Buzz is a better coach. And a better recruiter. And an infinitely better representative of the values Marquette espouses.

[jaygall31]

my stomach just churned when I read the first post..

all the open 3's...those used to KILL ME. every day. I remember when we lost to Winthrop @ home. we gave them open 3's all night, and boy did we pay.

[GOO]

Hands down Buzz is the man.  He has proven that he can evaluate talent, recruit, coach, and develop talent.  His ability to recruit quality backups (or multiple quality players at the same positions) will put us in a nice position.  I for one am glad that Crean is gone and that we have Buzz.  I think Buzz takes us further than Crean would have. Buzz managed to put a quality team on the floor despite the odds against him.  I think he may turn out to be a great coach, and not just a recruiter.

I think both Crean and Buzz value the players and require them to attend classes, study, get degrees, etc.  Both understood that this is important at MU and the alumni expect this... and winning at all costs is not acceptable.  The young men have to be valued as human being first.  Buzz may get this and feel it deeper than Crean, I don't know.  
 
Crean was good for the program, but maybe not the best on the court/coach.  And he never seemed to be able to recruit well unless he had a lot of time to sell.  The constant rumors that he'd put out and Crean's looking into other positions every year really hurt recruiting, in my mind.  Always loosing assistant coaches each year really messed up recruiting.  I think he thought that MU held him back, but maybe it was the other way around at times.

I hope Crean is happy at IU and I think most are very happy with Buzz and wouldn't trade Buzz for Crean
 
 
I say Buzz is the better recruiter and better coach.  His offense is way ahead of Creans.  
Crean is the better PR guy.  Buzz has improved his "look" and media ability by leaps in less than 2 years.

  

[MU B2002]

 Buzz has improved his "look" and media ability by leaps in less than 2 years.

  

Well he did state his favorite hobby, next to family time, is shopping for suits.

[Clarence]

I love Buzz and think that he has and will continue to do a great job at MU.

However, until he gets to a final four and recruits 4 (possibly 5) NBA players to the roster he will be behind TC in the pantheon of MU Coaches. 

[boyonthedock]

I can deal with a coach leaving for the Indiana's of the world, as long as the program is not seen as a stepping stone to coach at Virginia or Oklahoma state.

[MarquetteNation]

Buzz, like Crean, may someday leave for a more high profile job...but I could never imagine his players finding out about on SportsCenter.

[NotAnAlum]

Tower912 hit it on the head for me.  When Crean left I was a little disappointed but I wasn't scared like I was when he seemed to be ready to leave after the Final 4.  I felt we'd be ok.
When Buzz was hired it was a little bit of a let down.  I thought that our new position in the BE would let us take our pick of hot coaches.  The selection of Buzz seemed like settling to me.
Two years later I'm very happy.  So far Buzz has gotten us through the transition from the 3 Amigos to what appears will be the next generation and we've done so while remaining competitive and fun to watch.  Sure Buzz makes mistakes but he seems to learn from those mistakes.  One thing that comes through loud and clear is that the players LOVE him and he LOVE's them and I mean that in the truest sense of the word.  I also believe that Buzz means it when he says that he is here for the long haul.  TC said that because it was politically correct and good for recruiting.  Buzz says that because I think he means it.  Some say wait until the Texas job opens up but I really think that Buzz has a reverence for the trust MU placed in him and he won't walk away from that lightly.  Not having to worry about that year after year is very refreshing.

[thanooj]

Is this accepted as fact?  Asking the question, not trying to lay a landmine.  I don't know.  Regardless (or is it irregardless ), I think recruiting is still the most important part of CBB and so far, pretty good for Buzz.

Dean was pretty dang good in game.  He was a gym rat type guy who could x and o you and adjust in game.
he just couldn't recruit.  (some think he wasn't allowed to recruit by cords)

[LAZER]

I think in 1 1/2 years Buzz has shown that he is a better coach and no doubt a better recruiter than Crean.  Although I think Crean's teams played much better defense.  The main thing is the time that he has done it in.  He has not only maintained the status quo, but has the program in line to potentially rise even further in upcoming years.  He landed the most highly touted recruit in recent Marquette history and has surrounded him other great recruits.  His coaching, to me, is beyond his years and already better than Crean.  I think it only gets better in the years to come.  If Buzz is able to get this team into the tournament this year it will truly be a remarkable feat and setting MU up for a potential 8+ year run in the tournament.  A reasonable person couldn't expect much more from Buzz at this point.  As far as choking goes I think that falls on the players.  Buzz will take the heat for it, but in the final minutes of games it's up to the players to take care of business. Especially veteran ones.

I think Crean was also a great hire and him getting MU into the Big East can't be over looked obviously in addition to the Final Four.  The departure was probably best for both parties. I don't think he'll be fired at Indiana anytime soon, but I do think it will happen probably around 2015ish.  Lacking Big Ten titles and postseason results.

[IAmMarquette]

Mike Deane was a far better game coach than either Crean or Buzz.

And what have Buzz's teams done better in close, late-game situations than Crean's?  Nothing, imo.

I'll never understand the Buzz worship here.  The team flopped again the NCAA's last season with a late game choke and we'll see what happens the rest of this year.  I'm not defending Crean, either.  He was (literally) one of the biggest jerks on the planet and there could be an incredible thread of Crean stories (I've got a few doozies from someone who worked with him) that would make the biggest Crean haters gasp.  But he did take his team to a final four, even if they got the living crap beat out of them by Kansas once they got there.

I guess I'd vote for Crean, since I can't see one of Buzz's teams ever getting to the final four.

Really? You're blaming Buzz for Lazar stepping on the end line and for Kim English going off? Really?

[jmayer1]

Both had significantly different jobs at MU.  Crean had to get us from a program that had 1 Sweet 16 in 25 years to a power program...he did that.  Buzz was hired to keep things together, so far he has done that.

Totally different jobs.

I love how you say this all the time, like MU was absolutely horrible when TC came along and was so awful in the decade before.

When TC was hired:

Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 4 of the last 7 seasons (although not the last 2)
2 NIT Appearances (including a championship)

When Buzz was hired:
Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 5 of the last 7 seasons (3 in a row)
2 NIT Appearances

Obviously, TC left the program better that he found it.  He left a team that nearly anybody could have coached to the tourney and obviously the Final 4 run was better than the Sweet 16 run.  However, you act like MU was a basketball abyss (just as Deane tried to convince the MU faithful as well).

I'm just trying to straighten out the facts.

[BrewCity83]

Bottom line:  Crean is a program builder, Buzz will have to be a program sustainer.  Crean did a fine (maybe even a great) job of building the program up to where we wanted it to be.  His job was really finished here (although last year's Seniors would probably have appreciated him seeing them out.)  Buzz is now staked with the job of keeping us in national prominence, and building on the base that Crean built.  Like Chico's said, two different jobs.

I can see I'm not in the minority by being happy to have Buzz here to take us to the next level.

[Lighthouse 84]

Mike Deane was a far better game coach than either Crean or Buzz.

And what have Buzz's teams done better in close, late-game situations than Crean's?  Nothing, imo.

I'll never understand the Buzz worship here.  The team flopped again the NCAA's last season with a late game choke and we'll see what happens the rest of this year.  I'm not defending Crean, either.  He was (literally) one of the biggest jerks on the planet and there could be an incredible thread of Crean stories (I've got a few doozies from someone who worked with him) that would make the biggest Crean haters gasp.  But he did take his team to a final four, even if they got the living crap beat out of them by Kansas once they got there.

I guess I'd vote for Crean, since I can't see one of Buzz's teams ever getting to the final four.

Did you honestly expect Crean to take the Warriors to the Final Four in 2003, even after the year DWade had in 2001-2002?  Hell, did you honestly expect Crean to take the Warriors to the Final Four in 2003 with the year DWade had in 2002-2003?  We all knew Wade was special but I’m not sure it was expected he’d be able to put Tanned Tommy on his back and take him to New Orleans.  

In the immortal words of John Lennon, All we are saying, is give Buzz a chance…..

[Dr. Blackheart]

Crean had to get us from a program that had 1 5 Sweet 16's, 3 Elite 8's, 2 FF's, 2NC games, 1 NC in 25 years to a power program...he did that.  Buzz was hired to keep things together, so far he has done that.

Totally different jobs.

Fixed

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think this is true.  An interesting debate is which job is harder.  I think Buzz's job probably will be harder.

That is an interesting debate.  In many cases it is hard to maintain.  Then again, for 25 years we tried to recapture the magic and couldn't, so that alone tells you how hard it is to rebuild as well.

Buzz could become like Mark Few and extend what was already started.  Or what Xavier has done....they have gone through a number of coaches and don't miss a beat.  Or, it could go the other way.

Here's what I love about both Crean and Buzz.  They both work their asses off.  That type of effort usually pays off.  If Buzz can keep that effort up then we will be fine. 

[StillAWarrior]

That is an interesting debate.  In many cases it is hard to maintain.  Then again, for 25 years we tried to recapture the magic and couldn't, so that alone tells you how hard it is to rebuild as well.

There are probably plenty of people on this board who know far more about this than I do, but I had the impression that about the time that TC came in, Marquette really increased its level of commitment to the basketball program.  Is that the case?  I'm not saying this to diminish what TC accomplished (I'm still an unapologetic fan -- even if I think the way he left sucks), but it would help explain why TC was able to "recapture the magic" where others failed.  I'll willingly admit that I'm wrong if MU opened the spigots before TC arrived.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There are probably plenty of people on this board who know far more about this than I do, but I had the impression that about the time that TC came in, Marquette really increased its level of commitment to the basketball program.  Is that the case?  I'm not saying this to diminish what TC accomplished (I'm still an unapologetic fan -- even if I think the way he left sucks), but it would help explain why TC was able to "recapture the magic" where others failed.  I'll willingly admit that I'm wrong if MU opened the spigots before TC arrived.

I think that's a great point that can't be ignored.

I think TC, Father Wild, Wade, Diener, big donors, etc. etc. led to a great MU basketball revival.

KO started it when he was at MU, but some momentum was certainly lost in the Deane years. Crean (and the people mentioned above) helped re-ignite the passion for a lot of fans that had become pretty indifferent about MU hoops.

Also, media coverage, new conference, more clothing available (you can actually find MU stuff now), shoe contract, etc. etc. all helped.

[jmayer1]

That is an interesting debate.  In many cases it is hard to maintain.  Then again, for 25 years we tried to recapture the magic and couldn't, so that alone tells you how hard it is to rebuild as well.

Buzz could become like Mark Few and extend what was already started.  Or what Xavier has done....they have gone through a number of coaches and don't miss a beat.  Or, it could go the other way.

Here's what I love about both Crean and Buzz.  They both work their asses off.  That type of effort usually pays off.  If Buzz can keep that effort up then we will be fine. 

I think KO had recaptured some of the magic so I think that's a little bit of an exageration there but I agree on your second point.  Obviously Mike Deane couldn't continue what KO had started.  I wonder what MU would be like now if they had hired TC or a similar up and coming coach after KO had left.

[StillAWarrior]

Crean (and the people mentioned above) helped re-ignite the passion for a lot of fans that had become pretty indifferent about MU hoops.

This describes me perfectly.  I was a season ticket holder at MU.  My senior year, I was one of a group of people who were first in line to buy season tickets -- leaning against the door of the athletic department's office when they opened that morning  (back when our seats were assigned, so our seats were set based upon where we were in line to buy tickets, and not how early we got to games -- and our seats weren't very good compared to the student seats now).

After I moved to Cleveland, I was still a fan, but was getting more and more indifferent by the year.  MU was almost never on TV and was very rarely ranked.  So, no ESPN highlights, no game summaries in the newspaper, etc.  Also, obviously, the internet hadn't blown up like it has since.

I will always appreciate Crean (and Wade, Diener, Wilde, etc.) for resurrecting the program.  Now they are in the BEast, frequently on TV (or at least on ESPN 360), have been ranked quite a bit and are generally a legitimate high-major program.  As silly as it may seem to some people, there are very few "hobbies" or interests that I have that I enjoy more than following Marquette basketball.

Edited to add:  Notwithstanding the above, I didn't even hesitate to vote for Buzz in the poll.  He's doing a great job, and I'm optimistic that he's going to get better with experience.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I love how you say this all the time, like MU was absolutely horrible when TC came along and was so awful in the decade before.

When TC was hired:

Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 4 of the last 7 seasons (although not the last 2)
2 NIT Appearances (including a championship)

When Buzz was hired:
Last time MU was to the sweet 16 - 5 seasons
NCAA Tourney Appearances 5 of the last 7 seasons (3 in a row)
2 NIT Appearances

Obviously, TC left the program better that he found it.  He left a team that nearly anybody could have coached to the tourney and obviously the Final 4 run was better than the Sweet 16 run.  However, you act like MU was a basketball abyss (just as Deane tried to convince the MU faithful as well).

I'm just trying to straighten out the facts.

I don't think anything I said was not factual.  You're reading into something I never said.  I didn't say we were in the abyss, but we weren't that good either. 

The fact of the matter was, in the last 20+ years we had ONE Sweet 16.  It was a one-off year.  We didn't win the NIT championship either, or was that NIT Championship appearance that you meant?

We were a losing team when he took over.  In a decent, but not great conference.  Recruiting had fallen off considerably.  It was not in the abyss, but it certainly wasn't big time either.

We are monumentally better now than we were in 1999.  That was my point, sorry if you inferred that as in the abyss.  The bigger concern I had is that the one shining moment we had in the 1990's was the Sweet 16 and the coach left about 3 seconds after the final horn went off.  We then went to two more NCAAs, one taking a miracle conf. tourney run to get there.  No, we weren't in the abyss but we certainly weren't a nationally perceived program.IMO

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think KO had recaptured some of the magic so I think that's a little bit of an exageration there but I agree on your second point.  Obviously Mike Deane couldn't continue what KO had started.  I wonder what MU would be like now if they had hired TC or a similar up and coming coach after KO had left.

He did, of course, but then it went away 4 seconds later when he left.  That was the problem, we acted like a stepping stone school.  We'd make a break through and boom, bye bye coach all while he trashed us on the way out.

4 years later, we were a NIT team....one year after that, we had a losing record and attendance was below 10,000 a game.

For all the bitching of Crean, the single most important thing he did for Marquette, in my opinion...WAS TO STAY.  He didn't bolt too quickly, he provided some stability and showed that MU wasn't like it always was.  Now, I know he we looking at other jobs and we paid him a crapload of money to stay, don't get me wrong.  But to have him pop up for job after job after job and he stayed, that did WONDERS for Marquette's image.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This describes me perfectly.  I was a season ticket holder at MU.  My senior year, I was one of a group of people who were first in line to buy season tickets -- leaning against the door of the athletic department's office when they opened that morning  (back when our seats were assigned, so our seats were set based upon where we were in line to buy tickets, and not how early we got to games -- and our seats weren't very good compared to the student seats now).

After I moved to Cleveland, I was still a fan, but was getting more and more indifferent by the year.  MU was almost never on TV and was very rarely ranked.  So, no ESPN highlights, no game summaries in the newspaper, etc.  Also, obviously, the internet hadn't blown up like it has since.

I will always appreciate Crean (and Wade, Diener, Wilde, etc.) for resurrecting the program.  Now they are in the BEast, frequently on TV (or at least on ESPN 360), have been ranked quite a bit and are generally a legitimate high-major program.  As silly as it may seem to some people, there are very few "hobbies" or interests that I have that I enjoy more than following Marquette basketball.

Edited to add:  Notwithstanding the above, I didn't even hesitate to vote for Buzz in the poll.  He's doing a great job, and I'm optimistic that he's going to get better with experience.

Agree 100%.

My frosh. year, MU hoops wasn't relevant on campus. At all. It was bad. I know people love that NIT run in 1998, but in the fall of 1998, nobody gave a crap about it, or MU hoops.

Soph. year, the team wasn't much better, but there was at least some excitement, and junior year, the team wasn't great, but there was a lot of optimism.

Say what you want about TC, but he was a good promoter for MU and helped raise the profile of the school.

With all of this said, I'm pretty happy with Buzz right now (and voted for him)... but realistically it takes me 3-4 seasons before I can "fall in love" with a coach.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

He did, of course, but then it went away 4 seconds later when he left.  That was the problem, we acted like a stepping stone school.  We'd make a break through and boom, bye bye coach all while he trashed us on the way out.

4 years later, we were a NIT team....one year after that, we had a losing record and attendance was below 10,000 a game.

For all the bitching of Crean, the single most important thing he did for Marquette, in my opinion...WAS TO STAY.  He didn't bolt too quickly, he provided some stability and showed that MU wasn't like it always was.  Now, I know he we looking at other jobs and we paid him a crapload of money to stay, don't get me wrong.  But to have him pop up for job after job after job and he stayed, that did WONDERS for Marquette's image.

Jesus, Chicos. You know damn well he tried to leave every year but his personality is so distasteful that NOBODY WANTED HIM OTHER THAN ARKANSAS!!

He begged Illinois to hire him and they probably would have...until they met him. I know this for an iron clad fact. He spoke with the go-betweens and it was all systems go. This was "4 seconds after" the Final Four. Of course, once a couple people at Illinois got a chance to speak with the horse's ass they called it off and hired Bruce Weber. A career assistant. A person they'd rather take a chance on then Mr. Tanning Booth. What sane person wouldn't make the same choice?

Ohio State, Virginia, Kansas, Kentucky, etc. He was begging for these jobs and, as I pointed out at the time, was having media guys like Katz mention him as a candidate. You know this. Why do you keep giving him credit for staying when he had no choice?

Oh...but he was offered by Arkansas. That's proof he "stayed" despite opportunities. If you've ever been to Little Rock, you'd know that anybody would rather spend a year licking ass cracks at Bradford Beach then live there. But kudos to him for turning down the humidity in bumblef*ck Arkansas.

Are you denying he was looking for jobs the minute the first half buzzer went off in New Orleans? If you are, you're just flat out lying. That's what is so confounding. If you have all these "contacts" why do you choose to deny that this prick was looking elsewhere the ENTIRE TIME HE WAS HERE?! He took the first decent job that was offered...as did O'Neill.

It makes me sick to think that this guy was at Marquette as long as he was and is even an issue. He's such a complete dick that it lessens the basktball program that he was a part of it. Every time his name comes up during a broadcast it makes me want to puke. I would rather Marquette be in Conference USA, the Horizon League, an independent...anything, but to see his like again. There is no more disengenuous, self-serving person in all of sports...collegiate or professional. Yet you keep defending him. This is a guy who makes "friends" by sending fan letters! He goes to tanning salons! He was driving a gold Hummer! In a million years, if a guy like that was your neighbor would you want anything to do with him? He'd actually be a good addition to Jersey Shore!

He's an absolute, complete and total tool!!

[Cooby Snacks]

Jesus, Chicos. You know damn well he tried to leave every year but his personality is so distasteful that NOBODY WANTED HIM OTHER THAN ARKANSAS!!

He begged Illinois to hire him and they probably would have...until they met him. I know this for an iron clad fact. He spoke with the go-betweens and it was all systems go. This was "4 seconds after" the Final Four. Of course, once a couple people at Illinois got a chance to speak with the horse's ass they called it off and hired Bruce Weber. A career assistant. A person they'd rather take a chance on then Mr. Tanning Booth. What sane person wouldn't make the same choice?

Ohio State, Virginia, Kansas, Kentucky, etc. He was begging for these jobs and, as I pointed out at the time, was having media guys like Katz mention him as a candidate. You know this. Why do you keep giving him credit for staying when he had no choice?

Oh...but he was offered by Arkansas. That's proof he "stayed" despite opportunities. If you've ever been to Little Rock, you'd know that anybody would rather spend a year licking ass cracks at Bradford Beach then live there. But kudos to him for turning down the humidity in bumblef*ck Arkansas.

Are you denying he was looking for jobs the minute the first half buzzer went off in New Orleans? If you are, you're just flat out lying. That's what is so confounding. If you have all these "contacts" why do you choose to deny that this prick was looking elsewhere the ENTIRE TIME HE WAS HERE?! He took the first decent job that was offered...as did O'Neill.

It makes me sick to think that this guy was at Marquette as long as he was and is even an issue. He's such a complete dick that it lessens the basktball program that he was a part of it. Every time his name comes up during a broadcast it makes me want to puke. I would rather Marquette be in Conference USA, the Horizon League, an independent...anything, but to see his like again. There is no more disengenuous, self-serving person in all of sports...collegiate or professional. Yet you keep defending him. This is a guy who makes "friends" by sending fan letters! He goes to tanning salons! He was driving a gold Hummer! In a million years, if a guy like that was your neighbor would you want anything to do with him? He'd actually be a good addition to Jersey Shore!

He's an absolute, complete and total tool!!

So...who did you vote for in the poll?

[copious1218]

So...who did you vote for in the poll?

well played . . . i just audibly laughed at work (some might say I LOL'ed).

[Lighthouse 84]

Jesus, Chicos. You know damn well he tried to leave every year but his personality is so distasteful that NOBODY WANTED HIM OTHER THAN ARKANSAS!!

He begged Illinois to hire him and they probably would have...until they met him. I know this for an iron clad fact. He spoke with the go-betweens and it was all systems go. This was "4 seconds after" the Final Four. Of course, once a couple people at Illinois got a chance to speak with the horse's ass they called it off and hired Bruce Weber. A career assistant. A person they'd rather take a chance on then Mr. Tanning Booth. What sane person wouldn't make the same choice?

Ohio State, Virginia, Kansas, Kentucky, etc. He was begging for these jobs and, as I pointed out at the time, was having media guys like Katz mention him as a candidate. You know this. Why do you keep giving him credit for staying when he had no choice?

Oh...but he was offered by Arkansas. That's proof he "stayed" despite opportunities. If you've ever been to Little Rock, you'd know that anybody would rather spend a year licking ass cracks at Bradford Beach then live there. But kudos to him for turning down the humidity in bumblef*ck Arkansas.

Are you denying he was looking for jobs the minute the first half buzzer went off in New Orleans? If you are, you're just flat out lying. That's what is so confounding. If you have all these "contacts" why do you choose to deny that this prick was looking elsewhere the ENTIRE TIME HE WAS HERE?! He took the first decent job that was offered...as did O'Neill.

It makes me sick to think that this guy was at Marquette as long as he was and is even an issue. He's such a complete dick that it lessens the basktball program that he was a part of it. Every time his name comes up during a broadcast it makes me want to puke. I would rather Marquette be in Conference USA, the Horizon League, an independent...anything, but to see his like again. There is no more disengenuous, self-serving person in all of sports...collegiate or professional. Yet you keep defending him. This is a guy who makes "friends" by sending fan letters! He goes to tanning salons! He was driving a gold Hummer! In a million years, if a guy like that was your neighbor would you want anything to do with him? He'd actually be a good addition to Jersey Shore!

He's an absolute, complete and total tool!!

PR, don't sugarcoat it!  How do you really feel about Tanned Tommy?

[ChicosBailBonds]

PRN, I said he tried to leave....but he didn't.  That's the difference.  KO tried to leave and took the first train out of the station to a crap school with basically no basketball tradition.

That's the difference.  TC played the game, which is look around, and get paid for staying.  It's the game that coaches play when they are hot commodities.

MU suffered tremendously from Majerus 3 years (leaving in June), Dukiet 3 years (fired), KO 5 years (leaving for a non-men's basketball school, Deane 5 years (fired).

4 coaches in 16 years is not going to get it done.

But in the end, he didn't leave.  It's like a guy checking out Penthouse Magazine but never cheating on his wife.  It's one thing to flirt, quite another to go all in.  TC didn't leave and that finally stabilized MU.  I also think that's what hurt MU somewhat after the Final Four because everyone thought he would leave and recruits didn't want to come to MU if he wasn't there.

Stability, something MU didn't have for decades.  Badly needed.

[BrewCity83]

well played . . . i just audibly laughed at work (some might say I LOL'ed).

Ha!  I did, too!

[Lennys Tap]

PRN, I said he tried to leave....but he didn't.  That's the difference.  KO tried to leave and took the first train out of the station to a crap school with basically no basketball tradition.

That's the difference.  TC played the game, which is look around, and get paid for staying.  It's the game that coaches play when they are hot commodities.

MU suffered tremendously from Majerus 3 years (leaving in June), Dukiet 3 years (fired), KO 5 years (leaving for a non-men's basketball school, Deane 5 years (fired).

4 coaches in 16 years is not going to get it done.

But in the end, he didn't leave.  It's like a guy checking out Penthouse Magazine but never cheating on his wife.  It's one thing to flirt, quite another to go all in.  TC didn't leave and that finally stabilized MU.  I also think that's what hurt MU somewhat after the Final Four because everyone thought he would leave and recruits didn't want to come to MU if he wasn't there.

Stability, something MU didn't have for decades.  Badly needed.

It's nothing like checking out Penthouse magazine but not cheating on your wife. More like carousing all over town but ending up at home because none of the pretty girls are interested. Maybe that's your idea of a "stable" marriage - not mine.

[NersEllenson]

Mike Deane was a far better game coach than either Crean or Buzz.

And what have Buzz's teams done better in close, late-game situations than Crean's?  Nothing, imo.

I'll never understand the Buzz worship here.  The team flopped again the NCAA's last season with a late game choke and we'll see what happens the rest of this year.  I'm not defending Crean, either.  He was (literally) one of the biggest jerks on the planet and there could be an incredible thread of Crean stories (I've got a few doozies from someone who worked with him) that would make the biggest Crean haters gasp.  But he did take his team to a final four, even if they got the living crap beat out of them by Kansas once they got there.

I guess I'd vote for Crean, since I can't see one of Buzz's teams ever getting to the final four.

Just click on Gumby's Historical posts..no need to get riled up.  He's a Badger troll, or a Mike Deane lover.  I think many here could see Buzz Williams 2011-2012 team having a shot at the Final Four.  I've said before and I'll say it again:  Tom Crean's biggest contribution or gift to the MU program will have been:  Hiring Buzz Williams, and then leaving for Indiana - to clear the way for Buzz.  I genuinely believe Buzz can bring MU a run very similar to what Al brought - consistent Top 10 rankings and legitimate Final Four prospects.

[MUrugger]

Sometimes it's more fun to get in on a post ten hours and 50+ posts after it started.  Some random thoughts...

I don't think the ten voters that have supported TC have exercised full disclosure, unless some of his biggest supporters voted multiple times...

In retrospect the '02-'03 Final Four team does look like a Final Four team and most would have probably been upset if they never got there. They had D-Wade and three other future NBArs in Deiner, Novak and Grimm.  Robert Jackson was a beast and Scott Merritt was no slouch.  Add 800+ minutes from Todd Townsend, 500+ from Terry Sanders and solid contributions from Joe Chapman and Karon Bradley.  In the NCAAs they sure looked like one of the top four teams in the country...until the first half vs. Kansas.

I don't ever recall Mike Deane's bench coaching being heralded to any great degree, not by writers, game announcers, anybody until reading it here...

For this alum, and hundreds that I have spoken with, the change in name from Warriors was a far greater blow to the psyche than the I4 comment...

I'd echo what many have said that Tower's post pretty accurately describes my feelings.  I would add that the character aspect that Buzz brings alone over TC would make it an easy vote for me.  I did laugh and agree with every syllable of PRN's post.

I think we are in great shape with Buzz; game coaching, recruiting, representing the University...and the future looks bright.

I am not indifferent about TC.  He was smarmy and disingenuous, both on camera and in person.  I wish him nothing but the worst at II-II; I hope that his legacy will forever be people questioning why he left MU--and Buzz can help make that legacy come true.

[4everwarriors]

Jesus, Chicos. You know damn well he tried to leave every year but his personality is so distasteful that NOBODY WANTED HIM OTHER THAN ARKANSAS!!

He begged Illinois to hire him and they probably would have...until they met him. I know this for an iron clad fact. He spoke with the go-betweens and it was all systems go. This was "4 seconds after" the Final Four. Of course, once a couple people at Illinois got a chance to speak with the horse's ass they called it off and hired Bruce Weber. A career assistant. A person they'd rather take a chance on then Mr. Tanning Booth. What sane person wouldn't make the same choice?

Ohio State, Virginia, Kansas, Kentucky, etc. He was begging for these jobs and, as I pointed out at the time, was having media guys like Katz mention him as a candidate. You know this. Why do you keep giving him credit for staying when he had no choice?

Oh...but he was offered by Arkansas. That's proof he "stayed" despite opportunities. If you've ever been to Little Rock, you'd know that anybody would rather spend a year licking ass cracks at Bradford Beach then live there. But kudos to him for turning down the humidity in bumblef*ck Arkansas.

Are you denying he was looking for jobs the minute the first half buzzer went off in New Orleans? If you are, you're just flat out lying. That's what is so confounding. If you have all these "contacts" why do you choose to deny that this prick was looking elsewhere the ENTIRE TIME HE WAS HERE?! He took the first decent job that was offered...as did O'Neill.

It makes me sick to think that this guy was at Marquette as long as he was and is even an issue. He's such a complete dick that it lessens the basktball program that he was a part of it. Every time his name comes up during a broadcast it makes me want to puke. I would rather Marquette be in Conference USA, the Horizon League, an independent...anything, but to see his like again. There is no more disengenuous, self-serving person in all of sports...collegiate or professional. Yet you keep defending him. This is a guy who makes "friends" by sending fan letters! He goes to tanning salons! He was driving a gold Hummer! In a million years, if a guy like that was your neighbor would you want anything to do with him? He'd actually be a good addition to Jersey Shore!

He's an absolute, complete and total tool!!



Eloquent man, simply eloquent. Great visual also, "licking ass cracks at Bradford Beach. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[77ncaachamps]

Crean did a lot for the program and his egress (how and when) did upset me.

With that said, I think Crean hit his ceiling at MU. How do I know that? Just look at what Buzz is doing with the program.
Not much dropoff (if any) and Crean's struggling at an iconic college basketball program.

[MU B2002]

hey show some respect PRN, the univ of arkansas is in fayetteville not little rock.  And is actually a very nice campus with outstanding football and poultry science facilities (SERIOUSLY.).  Carry on...
;-)

[PE8983]

Buzz is a breath of fresh air and a better overall coach than TC.  TC's only real strength was marketing.
I'll give props to Mike Deane for one thing - he emphasized defense and was a master at coaching it.

[LastWarrior]

It's nothing like checking out Penthouse magazine but not cheating on your wife. More like carousing all over town but ending up at home because none of the pretty girls are interested. Maybe that's your idea of a "stable" marriage - not mine.

I was thinking the exact same thing... nothing like looking at Penthouse, he just got turned down by every drunk slut at the bar.

[rocky_warrior]

For this alum, and hundreds that I have spoken with, the change in name from Warriors was a far greater blow to the psyche than the I4 comment...

Prolly shouldn't rehash this debate, but .....

Funny, I've heard lots of the GE crowd say they don't understand why the Warrior crowd is so fanatic about it.  "Get over it".  But if there were a return to the Warriors, I think they'd "get it" in a heartbeat.  No controversy required.

[gumbyandpokey]

Prolly shouldn't rehash this debate, but .....

Funny, I've heard lots of the GE crowd say they don't understand why the Warrior crowd is so fanatic about it.  "Get over it".  But if there were a return to the Warriors, I think they'd "get it" in a heartbeat.  No controversy required.

Whenever I wear my MU Warriors t-shirt to work out at the Rec Center or Rec Plex, I get compliments from current students.  Even though they are technically "Golden Eagles" (blech...it sickens me to even type that pansy name), they still "get it".  GO WARRIORS!!

[#MUBB]

Buzz is a BLESSING.  Crean did some great things for the program and we owe a lot to him, but Buzz is a coach I'm proud to have represent my university and who I believe will make some noise in college basketball before he's finished.  Buzz makes me want to lace up the sneakers and be a warrior for MU, never got that feeling from TC.