More likely to win a National Title - UW's system or MU's system

[Mayor McCheese]

This has been a topic of conversation at where I work.  Two co-workers and I have been debating this for quite some time.  The on co-worker is new to Wisconsin and the previous year was an assistant coach at Iowa St.

Me and him have been talking about this for some time.  He always says "the sweet sixteen ain't a bad year".  And I agree, what Bo Ryan does every year at Wisky is quite amazing, and I swallow my pride when I say that.  I despise Bo and the Badgers (especially being a UW-Platt grad) Ive been stuffed with enough Bo lovers to fill a gym.  Bo knows how to win, and Bo knows how to win consistently with a system that is good enough to be 1-3 in the Big Ten (more than likely a consistent 4-7 in BE, with an exception the Tucker year where he would have been 1-2 in BE).  But 1-3 in BT will get you a 3-6 seed, which will usually result in you having a chance at making it past the first weekend in March in the tourny.


However, what I stand my opinion on is this.  Although Bo Ryan is a consistent winner with his system, his system ultimately doesn't allow him to recruit the players needed to win the whole thing.  To win the NCAA tournament, you need the weapons/horses/whatever analogy you want to give to good players.  When it comes down to it, a very long, athletic team will always beat Bo's system.  The system is fantastic in the Big Ten, where the majority of the teams (minus Mich St) are bruisers like the Badgers.  The Badgers also beat Duke this year, a team that is more systematic than athletic.

Although MU and Buzz's system more than likely won't get the same consistency that UW and Bo's system will get year in and year out, I like MU's chances of winning a national title (or making the Final Four) than UW's chances in the near future, a Swing offense and Bo system isn't geared for that.  Jon Leuer is a very nice player, a player I would love to have at MU... but when it comes down to it, he is absolutely out of place against players across the country.


Basically, what I try to tell my co-workers is although MU doesn't get the consistent success that UW receives, I am confident that the direction and program at MU is better suited to make a LONG deep run into the tournament than UW, who peaks at the sweet sixteen...

Any thoughts?

[tower912]

Systems are fine for regular seasons, where, if you lose a game, there is still another one next week.    Where systems like Wiscy's break down is in a one-and-done, do or die format.     When the system isn't working, a la Davidson, you need the horses to make plays beyond the system.    Wiscy got smoked, but didn't have the horses to press, go box and one, get quck shots when things turned against them.   Same thing with the Princeton offense.     This is why Izzo has been more successful in the tourney than Bo.    Sparty can play grind it out in the B10, but can run with anybody (except UNC last year.   Wow) in the tourney.    So Wiscy may win at home tonight, but seriously, which one is likely to go deeper in the tourney?   Syracuse plays that zone and is blessed with the athletes to play it.   What is their plan b when a team starts shredding the zone?    Play more zone.       
I am withholding judgement on Buzz' "system" until I see what it looks like with a healthy team.       the best system of all is still to recruit good athletes with good character.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wisconsin's system is awesome for winning DIII non scholarship national titles.

Where the big boys play, they have only made the Elite 8 one time and that was with an absolute gift seeding of playing three straight double digit seeds.   Otherwise, they haven't even been close to making the Final Four.

[GGGG]

I basically agree with your premise, and the follow-up comments, but I have a couple of issues:

1. The "system" isn't the reason Bo can't get the horses.  Bo is the reason.  He doesn't like to recruit.  If he had the desire to recruit like Buzz, he'd get the horses.

2.  Jon Leuer could play anywhere.

3.  UW fans by and large are happy with the Sweet 16.  For most of their history, UW basketball has been simply awful.  Their transformation to a top 25 program has happened in less than 20 years, and for most Badger fans remember those dark days and are just glad they aren't here any longer.

[mikeDEANmeminger]

This has been a topic of conversation at where I work.  Two co-workers and I have been debating this for quite some time.  The on co-worker is new to Wisconsin and the previous year was an assistant coach at Iowa St.

Where do you work that you are working with a guy that was an Iowa State assistant last year??

[buckchuckler]

Pitching and Defense, its all about pitching and defense.

[RawdogDX]

Why don't you just keep asking him when the last time a team in the bottom 50% of scoring won a title.  I don't know the answer but it is over 10 and may be over 20.

Last year on the badger board there was a thread about how madison's scoring total was ONLY 6 points below avg.  Teams like that have no shot. 

But congrats on having another solid regular season bucky.

[NersEllenson]

I basically agree with your premise, and the follow-up comments, but I have a couple of issues:

1. The "system" isn't the reason Bo can't get the horses.  Bo is the reason.  He doesn't like to recruit.  If he had the desire to recruit like Buzz, he'd get the horses.

2.  Jon Leuer could play anywhere.

3.  UW fans by and large are happy with the Sweet 16.  For most of their history, UW basketball has been simply awful.  Their transformation to a top 25 program has happened in less than 20 years, and for most Badger fans remember those dark days and are just glad they aren't here any longer.

+1 to all points.  Strongly agree Leuer could play anywhere.  He's got a very nice skill set at his height. 
I do think Buzz can possibly take us to the Final Four, possible National Championship in the next 5 years.  That said, I would genuinely be happy to be a consistent Top 25 team, that makes frequent Sweet 16 appearances, and occasionally breaks through to the Elite 8/Final Four.  Only 4 teams out of 336 get to be Final Four caliber, to expect that year in and year out at MU may be a bit of a reach.  Basically only Al was able to make us a perinneal threat to make Final Fours/Elite 8's - but I do believe Buzz is the best combination of coach/recruiter/charisma/character we've had at MU since Al.

[damuts222]

 I think Bo is a good coach and his system is working, thus is successful. Yet I think when you are playing in the tournament you need to be able to adapt to the different teams you are playing on defense and try to run your offensive sets. Bucky's offense frustrates teams that like to run up and down the court making teams force their offense.

  MU's system under Buzz allows more freedom for players to play and not over think what they are doing on the court. Do first, ask questions later basketball. That is why a player like Vander Blue would rather come to MU since he won't feel as controlled under Buzz, its all about the freedom. We want paint touches but were not "required" to pass the ball 5 times before we shoot, which I like.

[RawdogDX]

Does anyone know when the last time a team in the bottom 50% of scoring won a title?  It's a hard thing to google.  I was told it was 20+ years.  Doesn't that end the argument if that is correct?

[LAZER]

I basically agree with your premise, and the follow-up comments, but I have a couple of issues:

1. The "system" isn't the reason Bo can't get the horses.  Bo is the reason.  He doesn't like to recruit.  If he had the desire to recruit like Buzz, he'd get the horses.

2.  Jon Leuer could play anywhere.

3.  UW fans by and large are happy with the Sweet 16.  For most of their history, UW basketball has been simply awful.  Their transformation to a top 25 program has happened in less than 20 years, and for most Badger fans remember those dark days and are just glad they aren't here any longer.

I'd be really happy with Sweet a couple sweet sixteens in the upcoming years too.  While I guess I agree with your points about actually winning the whole thing, I'm pretty jealous of Wisconsin's tournament success.

[JWags85]

I'd be really happy with Sweet a couple sweet sixteens in the upcoming years too.  While I guess I agree with your points about actually winning the whole thing, I'm pretty jealous of Wisconsin's tournament success.

Really? I am jealous of the fact that they have made it 9 years in a row, as much as I dislike them, thats pretty special.  However, what they have done there, in relation to their seeding as such, isn't super desirable.  They have an Elite 8, which is cancelled out by our FF.  Then other than that, all their trips are highlighted by disappointing losses.  Upset in the 2nd round as a 2 seed, looking at another Elite Eight to be knocked out by Davidson (which suddenly is spun to look like it wasnt a big upset), and then a number of second round exits.  They can make fun of the 3 Amigo's tourney record all they want, the point is, their performance is not any more impressive, just more wins over lesser teams.

[bilsu]

I think the question is about systems and not schools. Take the same players and which system is better. The more fundamently sound system is better, which would be Bo's system. Having said that, I think neither school has a chance to win an NCAA title in the next 25 years. Usually the NCAA title team has three a four first round draft choices on it. Neither school has or do I forsee them having that kind of talent.

[MarquetteDano]

I basically agree with your premise, and the follow-up comments, but I have a couple of issues:

1. The "system" isn't the reason Bo can't get the horses.  Bo is the reason.  He doesn't like to recruit.  If he had the desire to recruit like Buzz, he'd get the horses.

I agree with "The Sultan" on this one.  Bo is a great coach and has a great system.  If you gave Bo UNC's atheletes with his system he win would a National Championship sooner or later.  The problem is he isn't a good recruiter.  I am sure Madison fans believe it is because the Harvard-esque demands of athletes that keep away the top recruits at UW-Madison.  Either way, he doesn't have the horses and that has nothing to do with "the system".

If the man ever did have back-to-back recruiting classes that were Top 10 look out.

[Freeport Warrior]

Really? I am jealous of the fact that they have made it 9 years in a row, as much as I dislike them, thats pretty special.  However, what they have done there, in relation to their seeding as such, isn't super desirable.  They have an Elite 8, which is cancelled out by our FF.  Then other than that, all their trips are highlighted by disappointing losses.  Upset in the 2nd round as a 2 seed, looking at another Elite Eight to be knocked out by Davidson (which suddenly is spun to look like it wasnt a big upset), and then a number of second round exits.  They can make fun of the 3 Amigo's tourney record all they want, the point is, their performance is not any more impressive, just more wins over lesser teams.

Too lazy to do the research, but if you extend your argument one more year, didn't they have a Final Four (99/00) and an Elite Eight. I'd take that any day.

[LON]

Too lazy to do the research, but if you extend your argument one more year, didn't they have a Final Four (99/00) and an Elite Eight. I'd take that any day.

Bo had nothing to do with UW's final four

[MUBurrow]

The more fundamently sound system is better, which would be Bo's system.

I will disagree with that.  Simply because systems highlight individual talent and isolation doesn't inherently make them worse.  Fundamentally sound is a nice buzzword (no pun intended...) for systems that cover up worse players.  NBA players don't want to play for Bo because he doesn't know how to use their talents.  Look at teams like Syracuse.  They play as undisciplined as you can get sometimes, but when we were down double digits to them, they were throwing alley oops, laughing and having a great time.  Less fundamentally sound? Maybe.  But more likely to win a national championship pretty much every year.

[GGGG]

I agree with "The Sultan" on this one.  Bo is a great coach and has a great system.  If you gave Bo UNC's atheletes with his system he win would a National Championship sooner or later.  The problem is he isn't a good recruiter.  I am sure Madison fans believe it is because the Harvard-esque demands of athletes that keep away the top recruits at UW-Madison.  Either way, he doesn't have the horses and that has nothing to do with "the system".

Bo leaves recruiting up to his assistants, and fills up his spots early.  When Diamond Taylor was dismissed from the team, he turned around and got Josh Gasser.  Gasser is a nice guard, but Bo didn't hit the recruiting trail to get someone like Newbill who IMO has a much higher upside.  He took the easier route rather than shooting higher in the late signing period.

But they guy can coach.  No doubt about that.

[GGGG]

I will disagree with that.  Simply because systems highlight individual talent and isolation doesn't inherently make them worse.  Fundamentally sound is a nice buzzword (no pun intended...) for systems that cover up worse players.  NBA players don't want to play for Bo because he doesn't know how to use their talents.  Look at teams like Syracuse.  They play as undisciplined as you can get sometimes, but when we were down double digits to them, they were throwing alley oops, laughing and having a great time.  Less fundamentally sound? Maybe.  But more likely to win a national championship pretty much every year.

Again...it's not "the system" that turns away potential NBA prospects.  It's Bo's recruiting style.

[MUBurrow]

agree to disagree

[Skatastrophy]

Again...it's not "the system" that turns away potential NBA prospects.  It's Bo's recruiting style.

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.  Even Vander Blue said that he wanted to be a part of a fast paced, high scoring offense.

[LON]

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.  Even Vander Blue said that he wanted to be a part of a fast paced, high scoring offense.

Nope.  He didn't want to go to class.

That one makes me laugh, every time.

[GGGG]

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.  Even Vander Blue said that he wanted to be a part of a fast paced, high scoring offense.

Vander Blue didn't decommit because of "the system."  He decommited because of the "come to Jesus meeting" regarding his academics.  IMO, if that meeting doesn't take place, he's still going to Madison.

Bo doesn't have elite camps...he doesn't hit the road like Buzz does...he doesn't do the things that most coaches do to get the NBA level talent.  Look, Michigan State runs pretty restrictive offensive sets (that's where Tom Crean learned) but it certainly hasn't harmed his recruiting.  Georgetown is another example.

[LAZER]

Really? I am jealous of the fact that they have made it 9 years in a row, as much as I dislike them, thats pretty special.  However, what they have done there, in relation to their seeding as such, isn't super desirable.  They have an Elite 8, which is cancelled out by our FF.  Then other than that, all their trips are highlighted by disappointing losses.  Upset in the 2nd round as a 2 seed, looking at another Elite Eight to be knocked out by Davidson (which suddenly is spun to look like it wasnt a big upset), and then a number of second round exits.  They can make fun of the 3 Amigo's tourney record all they want, the point is, their performance is not any more impressive, just more wins over lesser teams.

They have a final four in 99-00( i know it wasn't ryan's), a sweet sixteen in 02-03, an elite 8 in 04-05, and a sweet sixteen in 07-08.  You can make up excuses and reasons why stuff happened and try to validate why their tournament losses are worse than marquette's and argue the merit of our wins vs. their wins, but when it comes down to it i'd take their results over ours.  And looking ahead for 09-10 and 10-11 i'd be ecstatic with a Sweet Sixteen in either of those years. Which i'd say is pretty unlikely.

[JWags85]

Well by your logic, we had a FF in 1977.  We put the restrictions on Bo's term for a reason, not an arbitrary time like UW fans do, cause it coincides with their rise.

Point to a time in that frame where we were a 2-3 seed that got knocked out by a lower seed?  I honestly don't think its making excuses to point out that UW has played a bunch of double digit seeds, and years where they didn't, they didnt have results.