OT: If you couldn't leave for the NBA early

[spiral97]

I'm not even sure where the NCAA has the leverage to ask for this or where the NBA has the business interest to implement this (even the 1 year rule currently in place).  Enlightenment?

[Djgoldnboy]

Yes, but the extra year is only going to make a difference if you're the only one staying the extra year. If everyone is bound to college for the two years, the guys who still aren't ready after two years are still gonna come out and not make it - same as those guys who would come out prematurely after their Freshman year. Make it as many years as you want - guys who are not ready are still going to come out too early. Meanwhile guys like Oden, Durant, Carmelo Anthony, etc. would be the victims of this kind of rule.

I would hope that college coaches would be there to go over and give fair assesments to these players on the border of going pro...I would be willing to bet quite a bit that if it was mandatory that kids stay in two years, those borderline kids wouldn't jump and there would be more success stories than failure.  I would hope to hell that if a coach is getting a feeling from his sources that the kid may not go where the guaranteed money is, he'd let the kid know that and advise him when making the decision.

The money will still be there for the Oden's, Carmelo's etc....after two years, and they'll be that much closer to getting a degree.  Granted some kids will not need it with the money they'll make, but for some it can be another goal they may strive for, rounding them out as an individual.  I see nothing but good that come from kids staying in a program for a year or two. 

Even now there are some reports that Oden is considering staying since he enjoys college so much.  How factual they are I do not know, but I know they are out there.

[Mayor McCheese]

Yes, but the extra year is only going to make a difference if you're the only one staying the extra year. If everyone is bound to college for the two years, the guys who still aren't ready after two years are still gonna come out and not make it - same as those guys who would come out prematurely after their Freshman year. Make it as many years as you want - guys who are not ready are still going to come out too early. Meanwhile guys like Oden, Durant, Carmelo Anthony, etc. would be the victims of this kind of rule.

not true... the guys that leave high school battle those who played in NCAA for those years.. so they lose picks that way, not only that but your skills can be enhanced more than others while in college (look at D-Wade, was a great player in HS, but didn't even start on his AAU team).  Darius Miles, who did start on D-Wade's AAU team went straight to the NBA... where is Darius Miles these days, not the face of the NBA.  Thats what NCAA does to players, makes them better

[Djgoldnboy]

Great post Mayor.

[WashDCWarrior]

Enlightenment??  I'm a Marquette fan, not Buddha.

But I'll try.

The NBA should have a business interest in bringing the best players into their league.  This would be helped by giving kids an extra year, 2, or 3 in college.  Also (as evidenced on this board) there are a number of college basketball fans who barely follow the NBA.  If these NCAA fans get to see players play in college, then go to the NBA, they'd be more likely to follow them there.

The NCAA having leverage is tricky.  They can argue that they're doing this in the best interest of the student-athletes.  Not sure their track record will help though.

I remember when Maurice Clarett fought to go early to the NFL his case was that if he is qualified to make a living in the (footbal) profession and was of legal working age, he should be allowed to.  The NFL's side was that it was their league and could set their own guidelines.

This solution sort of apeases both sides.

[spiral97]

Enlightenment??  I'm a Marquette fan, not Buddha.

And thus your signature quote is born...


I guess I understand what you says is the NBA benefit of getting more developed players and getting more interested fans following those players in... that still seems a bit weak but I'll go with it.  Not sure there is any NCAA leverage in there yet.. if the NBA didn't care to impose the restriction the NCAA would be helpless in dealing with the issue.

[Mayor McCheese]

For the NBA to get me to watch the games again... they need to not make the game such a street game... its all 1 on 1, why is Steve Nash the two-time(up for three-time, if not for injury) MVP, because he is one true team player in the league, and is the most valuable player.  Sure Kobe scores, but what does he do for his team.  The game in the NBA is trash, the rules have been bent (travels are almost non-existent), and the plays seem to be just iso's.  The Lost Art of the Mid-Range Jumpshot, that better be a title of a movie or a book, I would buy either, because thats what the NBA is.  Three or Dunk, all it is, no defense, and teams still are hard to get to 100, unlike if you watch old games, 100 was easy, why, because the teams were just that more basketball sound.  Ill take a good NCAA team to beat an average NBA team on a neutral floor anyday, better coached, better gameplan, better team chemistry.

[🏀]

Mayor has been dead on.

1.) The Darius Miles point was excellent. Arguably, Wade and Miles are both on the same level athletically, but Wade went to college, and honed his skills. Miles went to the NBA, hasn't improved his skills, and is stuck in NBA-mediocrity.

On top of being mediocre, he didn't recieve a fine set of values that college provides a man that might come from a backround that lacks such, he wouldn't be having troubles with the wacky-tacbackie.

2.) The NBA has a lot of work to do. I would for one love to see a shortened season, I love to follow baseball, all 162 games. But the NBA season just seems to drag on and on. I feel like this is due to the team being in a new town every other night. Set up a three or two game series in a city.

And to quote Jim Rome, "What's next? David Stern's going to tell us NBA players don't love hippie lettuce and XBOX? Come on Commissioner, we know what goes on off the court."

[NavinRJohnson]

not true... the guys that leave high school battle those who played in NCAA for those years.. so they lose picks that way, not only that but your skills can be enhanced more than others while in college (look at D-Wade, was a great player in HS, but didn't even start on his AAU team).  Darius Miles, who did start on D-Wade's AAU team went straight to the NBA... where is Darius Miles these days, not the face of the NBA.  Thats what NCAA does to players, makes them better

Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. I'm not denying some guys can benefit from an additional year of college, but what would forcing LeBron James or Josh Howard to go to college have done for them? Answer: Nothing. In fact it would have hurt them tremendously from a financial standpoint. What would Carmelo Anthony or Chris Bosh have gained from being forced to stay another year? Nothing. I understand your point that players can improve with more college experience. Of course they can, but you seem to be completely missing mine that the mistake of coming out early will still be made routinley - it might just be made by different guys. To think that making guys stay two years will somehow stop guys from entering the draft prematurely, or even reduce the number is silly. Guys go too soon because they think they are more desireable to the NBA then they are, usually due to bad advice. Whether that happens after one year of college or two makes no difference - players are still going to overestimate their abilities and pay a price for it. Guys just won't be getting that bad advice until they are eligible. Doesn't mean they are necessarily going to be any better or more attractive to NBA scouts.

You are proposing trying to protect the dumb at the expense of the players who make good decisions (LeBron, Carmelo, Howard, Durant, etc.). Problem is, the dumb ones are still going to be there - like I said it may just be a different set of dumb guys a year later.

BTW, Darius Miles didn't get a qualifying SAT, and was the third overall pick in the draft, and immediatley made several million dollars. How much would he have made at St. John's those first two years? What guarantees would he have had beyond that? Now he is out for the season with a knee injury and will be paid $8 million dollars. What if he injured that knee in collge? Then what?

Andre Miller was a partial qualifier like Wade and played all four years? Did the extra two years make him better than Wade? Some guys are just better than others and college has little or nothing to do with it.  

[NavinRJohnson]

Mayor has been dead on.

1.) The Darius Miles point was excellent. Arguably, Wade and Miles are both on the same level athletically, but Wade went to college, and honed his skills. Miles went to the NBA, hasn't improved his skills, and is stuck in NBA-mediocrity.

On top of being mediocre, he didn't recieve a fine set of values that college provides a man that might come from a backround that lacks such, he wouldn't be having troubles with the wacky-tacbackie.

The Darius Miles point is a terrible one. Neither qualified to play their Freshman year. Wade went to college because he had nowhere else to go - as Mayor accurately pointed out. Had Wade entered the draft he wouldn't even have been given a work out. Darius Miles went to the draft and was the third player taken!!!! You are advocating that he be forced to go to college for not one, but a minimum of two years, where anything could happen. Meanwhile he put, what...$3million+ in his pocket in that time. You also assume that he would somehow have been a better NBA player had he gone to college. What evidence is there to support that? DWade is better than a whole lot of guys that spent 3 and 4 years in college. Why is he better than Miles simply because Miles didn't go to college? There are a ton of mediocre NBA players and many of them went to college. He's stuck in NBA-mediocrity with $50million guaranteed.

As far as the values thing goes, I can swear I watched many games where Rasheed Wallace, Latrell Sprewell, Zach Randolph, JR Rider (sort of), Jayson Williams were all wearing college uniforms. I guess sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't.

[Mayor McCheese]

Mayor has been dead on.

1.) The Darius Miles point was excellent. Arguably, Wade and Miles are both on the same level athletically, but Wade went to college, and honed his skills. Miles went to the NBA, hasn't improved his skills, and is stuck in NBA-mediocrity.

On top of being mediocre, he didn't recieve a fine set of values that college provides a man that might come from a backround that lacks such, he wouldn't be having troubles with the wacky-tacbackie.

The Darius Miles point is a terrible one. Neither qualified to play their Freshman year. Wade went to college because he had nowhere else to go - as Mayor accurately pointed out. Had Wade entered the draft he wouldn't even have been given a work out. Darius Miles went to the draft and was the third player taken!!!! You are advocating that he be forced to go to college for not one, but a minimum of two years, where anything could happen. Meanwhile he put, what...$3million+ in his pocket in that time. You also assume that he would somehow have been a better NBA player had he gone to college. What evidence is there to support that? DWade is better than a whole lot of guys that spent 3 and 4 years in college. Why is he better than Miles simply because Miles didn't go to college? There are a ton of mediocre NBA players and many of them went to college. He's stuck in NBA-mediocrity with $50million guaranteed.

As far as the values thing goes, I can swear I watched many games where Rasheed Wallace, Latrell Sprewell, Zach Randolph, JR Rider (sort of), Jayson Williams were all wearing college uniforms. I guess sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't.

Before you said making LeBron James or Josh Howard go to college (I think you meant Dwight Howard... Josh Howard went to Wake Forest, Dwight Howard is the HS player)

I never said two... I think one is fine, it is enough to show a player if he needs more time or not, yes Darius Miles was drafted third, but look at that draft, it is so WEAK!!!  Kenyon Martin was 1, which is alright, Stromile Swift went 2, Miles 3, Marcus Fizer 4, Mike Miller 5, and DeMarr Johnson 6.  It goes on and on.

To look at some other high school players in the draft (which is year 2000).  You have Darius Miles who went 3rd, DeShawn Stevenson went 23rd (who is on the Wizards, though I had to look that up).

2001 draft High Schoolers: Kwame Brown went 1, Tyson Chandler went 2, Eddy Curry went 3, Desagna Diop went 8, Ousmane(nice name) Cisse went 47th(bad choice),

Cisse plays in Israel, Brown is for Lakers, Chandler is on the Hornets, Curry is the Knicks and Diop plays on the Mavericks... besides Curry in this group, who else do you see on Sportscenter (telling me that Brown's choice was a good one to not go to college, get drafted number 1, get that paycheck, and then struggle, what message is that to upcoming players?)

2002 draft: only HS player was Amare Stoudamire... which Ill allow (although him at Memphis would have been impressive)

2003 draft: well we got LeBron James with 1, Travis Outlaw with pick 23, Ndubi Ebi with pick 26, Kendrick Perkins with pick 27, James Lang with pick 48.

LeBron with the Cavs, Outlaw plays for the TrailBlazers... here comes the good ones... 

Ebi, drafted by T-Wolves, after three years the T-Wolves tried to send him to the NBDL, but they only take guys who have played under 3 years, so they dropped him before the 2005-2006 season, he was picked up by the Mavs in the 2006 season, played a couple preseason games, sucked and was dropped.  Thats all that is said on his Wiki site, so who knows what he is doing now.  Man that committment to Arizona and playing for Lute Olsen doesn't look pointless now.

Perkins actually plays for the Celtics, which suprised me, however the Celtics stink, I might as well play there

Want to see something sad, look at James Lang's wiki site... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lang_%28basketball%29   6'10" and 285 lbs, sure he was dominant in HS, but anyone could be with that size

Im done looking at the years, my point is this, yes there are few players that may not need that 1 year of college basketball, but what does it hurt.  Have you ever heard of a player who lost his chance to play in the NBA by playing college ball?  I know people will say career ending injuries, but I have never seen that happen.  You keep talking about Miles getting that first paycheck, and was drafted third, well Wade went to college, was drafted 5(worse than Miles), but I think Wade's wallet is fatter right now, not to mention a ring on his hand (there was a good article on ESPN that compared James game(no college) compared to Wade's game(college), the conclusion was their style of play is why Wade wins his jewelery and James still has to buy his, which is a WHOLE other side as to why go to college).  Yes these players are helping there financial situation, but going to college for free sure helps. 

You said Chris Bosh earlier, well if Chris Bosh would have stayed in school 1 more year, there might be a good chance that in 2004 instead of UCONN, Georgia Tech would have been champs (they were runner-ups).  I would love to be able to say I am a college champ instead of playing in Toronto, losing year after year, BUT WHO CARES, I'M MAKING MONEY! yay!  I had a lot of respect for Noah staying in school, school means more to some people than others I guess.


I also forgot all the H.S players that went to the NBA draft and never got drafted, although they had many college recruits looking at them.

[NavinRJohnson]

I will just make a couple of general points in reply because of all that was in that post.

You still haven't explained how forcing a kid to go to college for a year or two stops players from entering the draft when they're not ready. Of course some will benefit from the time and will be better prepared when they do enter, but all their absence in any given draft will do is make it more attractive for other guys who are eligible, but aren't ready and doomed to fail, to enter the draft because the other guys who aren't eligible aren't there. Instead of HS'ers entering prematurely, you'll have college Freshmen or Sophmores who aren't good enough entering the draft. The net number of careers saved will be zero. Like I said before it is all relative. The bad advice these players get will not just disappear. Different players will simply get it after their first year of college instead of in HS. Either way, if they aren't good enough for the NBA, the story is going to end the same. Until the NBA requires a four year degree for players to be drafted, guys will be entering the draft when they aren't good enough. There are only so many draft picks and NBA roster spots and too many guys thinking they can get one.

Wade went to college and yes his wallet is fatter than Miles's. Why? Because he's better. He's better than just about every player in the NBA, and his wallet reflects it. Why is college only relevant when it comes comparisons to guys who didn't go to college?

"I would love to be able to say I am a college champ instead of playing in Toronto, losing year after year, BUT WHO CARES, I'M MAKING MONEY! yay!"

Very easy for you to say. Have you been presented the opportunity to sign a multi-million dollar guaranteed contract to play basketball? Knowing niether one will ever happen for me, heck, I'd love to be able to say that too. So if you are Chris Bosh, or countless others (Dwyane Wade), you could go play basketball in the NBA and guarantee yourself milliosn of dollars and a lifetime of security, or stay in school, play basketball more or less on a volunteer basis, guarntee yourself nothing, and watch your coach and University rake in millions of dollars based largely on your play. Again, very easy for you the college basketball fan to decide what's best fo him.

As for Noah staying in school. The kid is loaded - at least his dad is. Money is no issue to him. Far easier for him to stay in school than it is for other guys.

Guess what else. Some guys just don't want to go to college or just aren't cut out for it. Forcing them to go is not going to help those guys because their gonna bomb out anyway. That's not going to help them in any way.

[🏀]

NRJ, since no kid should go to college if they have enough talent, why does the NFL require two years?

They are clearly NFL caliber players coming out of HS, why can't they go?

[MikeyT42]

Great topic I must say, Cheese presents some good points as does the Nav. I have been half and half on this issue when i think about here are my two sides to the argument take them or leave them.

The NBA's Rule that kids need to wait until they're 19 or play one year of college hoops really hurts/helps college basketball

Hurts:

This rule hurts College teams because kids leaving early for the draft can really hamper the recruiting process and a teams overall chance at success. Say a kid knows he's gonna leave after one year, no doubt about it, all he's gonna do at that university is pass his 9 credits fall semester (thats all you need to do as a freshman in college athletics to be eligible) enroll in classes in spring barely go, and focus more on his stats rather then his education and his teams wins and losses. Kevin Durant is a hell of player, yes, but don't you think his stats are a little inflated? Kids leaving early also puts the coach in a tough position ecspecailly if his school is in a rebuilding year. He can't afford to have his blue chip leave, but it reality he's good as gone.

Helps.

Yes because of this rule we get to see kids like Durant and like buddinger and oden explode on the college scene. (whens the last time we heard about 2 freshmen up for player of the year?) It's great publicity for the game. instead of these great talents going directly to the NBA to show they're stuff. The game of college basketball is a game of what have you done for me lately game. College coaches love having these guys around because they give them a security blanket for a year.

[NavinRJohnson]

NRJ, since no kid should go to college if they have enough talent, why does the NFL require two years?

They are clearly NFL caliber players coming out of HS, why can't they go?

When did I say I agreed with that requirement? NFL can do what they want though I guess, just as the NBA can.

BTW, I never said no kid should go to college if they have enough talent. I am saying no kid should be forced to go to college for whatever period of time if they don't want to, and the NBA is willing to take them.

[Mayor McCheese]

the main reason why I see making a player play a year of college ball will prevent him from leaving early and failing is this.  If you look at most of the HS players that failed, they were big men (6'8" and up)... when you are that tall, in HS, its a man against boys.  My high school was D1 here in WI, and my senior year I think the tallest player was around 6'7", lanky, skinny, and uncordinated... any decent big man with some size is going to eat that up and look really good.  His stats will be inflated, and scouts will eat it up.  When they go to college, there playing against guys there size, their talent level, and they see how they stack up against the competition, and see that their old high school ways won't work against experienced talented players.  Thats why I think the rule eliminates some of the failures, sure some will still happen (Darius Washington) but hey, he went to Memphis, they don't graduate anyone, he was doomed from the start 

[MonsterWebWarrior]

The NFL has a rule because they believe that a person isn't physically developed enough to handle the punishment of the NFL until they're 21.  It's a brutal sport, so they're protecting people who aren't physically ready yet.

I didn't mind the NBA taking high schoolers.  In my mind, if the kid didn't want to go to school, I was perfectly happy to give the scholarship to someone who does and needs it to get through because they can't afford it themselves.  The High Schooler that gets drafted in the first round will make more money than most of us will ever make, so more power to them.   Forcing them to go a year before they enter the draft uses up a scholarship that someone else could have used and appreciated much more.

Taking this farther than what we're discussing, I've never really liked when people say a kid should stay in school to get their degree before leaving.  It's noble and all to say that, but if you were in that situation I doubt you would do the same.  I know this is an extreme example, but it's the same principle.  If I was a sophomore or junior in college and studying accounting, and someone came up to me and offered me $3 mil over 3 years to do accounting work for them, I'd have left in a heartbeat.  I'll worry about my degree some other time.  And I know each of you would too.  Especially someone coming from a poor household, take the money and help your family out.  You can always go back and get the degree later.  

On another note, one of the problems the NBA ran into with their rookie pay scale was that it encouraged players to leave earlier so they could get to free agency and their max contracts earlier.  It takes 3 years plus a club option in most cases to get to free agency and possibly a max contract.  The longer you wait, the longer it takes to get to that max contract.  That's what it's really all about.  It's not so much how good you are when you come out, but how good will you be when you hit free agency.  That's where you want to cash in.

Sorry, one more comment.  Granted there's been mistakes with drafting High Schoolers that didn't pan out, but there's all kinds of players from all classes that don't pan out in the NBA.  I would just say the risk is less with upper classmen, but it's still no sure thing at all.  The NFL drafts people who have at least 3 years college experience and there's busts in that draft all the time, same as the NBA, except everyone is a junior or senior.  You just hope that if the kid leaves early, he makes a smart decision based on current facts and not bad advice.