Vander Blue

[Lennys Tap]

I noticed that Vander Blue's team lost again last night (3rd loss of the season I believe). I know they were missing one of their top players for a while, but has the team (and Vander) been somewhat of a disappointment this year? Outside of one game in Detroit (22 pts 22 rbs) his numbers as reported on this board have been rather ordinary (especially compared to guys like Blackshear). I would appreciate it if those who have actually watched him this year could report on what they've seen and project his likely role with MU next season. Thanks in advance for any information.

[jaygall31]

I'll tell you his role, starting shooting Guard.

[Lennys Tap]

I'll tell you his role, starting shooting Guard.

I guess everyone pretty much assumes he starts from the get go, but posters like Murffies have indicated he's overrated (suggesting Creamer on his own team is just as good). I hope and even assume Murf is full of it but wanted to know what those who actually watch Vander play think.

[wadesworld]

I think he is very good but to assume that he will start might be a bit premature.  With DJO and Buycks both in the running for the starting SG, it's very crowded there.  The backcourt of Cadougan, Smith, DJO, Buycks, and Blue is looking pretty strong.

[NersEllenson]

I think we all need to reality check ourselves and realize MOST Top 50 guys who come in as freshman struggle to score much more than 10 points per game.  Look at Michael Snaer who MU almost reeled in, a Top 25 guy, McDonalds All American - averages about 8.5 per game.  Due to the fact we got Vander and that he didn't go to UW, it may be natural for MU fans to get carried away in the exuberence of just landing him - to where it may inflate realistic expectations for what he will contribute next year.  He could be a 6th man, or possible starting shooting guard.  There are very few John Wall's in the country.  We are fortunate to have Vander, but to heap "savior-type" expectations on him probably is a bit too much/premature at best.

[Murffieus]

I saw Blue play over the holidays and he hasn't improved over last year-----seems satisfied with his current BB level of achievement. Weekly production reports would confirm that.

[4everwarriors]

Blue starts on this team next season.

[96warrior]

DOn't know anything about Blue, really, but agree with Ners that it's dangerous to put too high expectations on this kid. There is going to be a learning curve between HS ball and BEast play, and I really hope the fans give him the space to make his mistakes and not come out to be the saving grace right off the bat. It's always great to land a high level recruit. Let's give him time to come up to speed though.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

While I haven't seen him play recently, I wouldn't be too worried about the fact thats he's averaging 18.5 points per game, which is actually up a 1.5 from last season. Although its now jaw dropping, its still solid for a high school player. High school stats outside of points are just horrendous so there's no point in really even looking at them. Plus alot of high school games are slow down games with the score in the high forties and fifties. He lost a very complimentary player in Maymon so I'm not surprised the team is "struggling" more this season.

That all said, do I think he will be a world burner next year - no. But I think he'll make his way into the starting lineup along with Cadougan and DJO. I think he could have a Jerel-esque freshman year, and really start to heat up after a year in the system and some more time to add strength and work on his outside shot.

[bma725]

I guess everyone pretty much assumes he starts from the get go, but posters like Murffies have indicated he's overrated (suggesting Creamer on his own team is just as good). I hope and even assume Murf is full of it but wanted to know what those who actually watch Vander play think.

Murff is full of it.

Vander's production is the result of not having a team that is not as talented as it was in years past, and the scheme that Coach Collins uses doesn't necessarily utilize his talent to the fullest.

[ATWizJr]

Blue starts on this team next season.

I hope he can defend well enough to start next season.

[Nukem2]

Murff is full of it.

Vander's production is the result of not having a team that is not as talented as it was in years past, and the scheme that Coach Collins uses doesn't necessarily utilize his talent to the fullest.

Agree.  Madison Memorial's system in watching back to Wesley Matthews' days simply does not seem to emphasize an individual.  Very team oriented FBOW.

[Jay Bee]

From last night... word up.  Great shot of Van, but also check the crowd for fun things.

[mu89]

From last night... word up.  Great shot of Van, but also check the crowd for fun things.

is that my main man in the back jumping around?

[ecompt]

I think we can all agree that being the best player in Wisconsin does not guarantee instant success.

[avid1010]

I saw Blue play over the holidays and he hasn't improved over last year-----seems satisfied with his current BB level of achievement. Weekly production reports would confirm that.

Please share what your weekly production reports are?

[Benny B]

I think we can all agree that being the best player in Wisconsin does not guarantee instant success.

That, of course, would assume that every "best player in Wisconsin" have the same talents, skills, desire, motivation and production.

And that, of course, would be a very, very, very ignorant assumption.

[MUfan12]

I'll tell you his role, starting shooting Guard.

He'd start on this team, this season. No doubt in my mind. He's already a better defender than our two JUCO matadors.

[MUCam]

He'd start on this team, this season. No doubt in my mind. He's already a better defender than our two JUCO matadors.

I don't get how you can make that statement, without watching Vander Blue play against top level competition. The kid is in high school. 90% of the players he guards will likely not play at the DIV I level. Meanwhile, DJO and Buckys are playing against the best of the best.

I am not saying Vander Blue isn't a better defender, but I think its a bit premature to call it that way.

For what its worth, if Blue can earn a starting spot next year, this team will be in good shape. Buckys and DJO have impressed me considering that this is their first year of high-major basketball. They have a long ways to go, but what Div I rookie doesn't? Blue beating out either of those two, with a year experience under their belts, would be impressive, not to mention encouraging.

[MUfan12]

I've seen Vander play several times. Athletically, he's a high major starter right away. But defensively his footwork is far and away better than Buycks and DJO. The transition shouldn't be too much of a problem, he's that gifted.

Now I don't doubt that either of them are capable of becoming good defenders. But right now they completely sellout on closeouts, rather than chopping up their steps they lunge into it. This puts them in a terrible defensive position, and they get beat like a drum off the bounce. I attribute some of this to coaching.

[4everwarriors]

Div 1 experience or not, Blue starts now because he's better offensively and defensively than Acker, Cubillan, Buycks, or DJO.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Div 1 experience or not, Blue starts now because he's better offensively and defensively than Acker, Cubillan, Buycks, or DJO.

Really?  Blue has never played against DI talent offensively or defensively.  Hard for me to believe he would just step in and be better on day one, but maybe.

[4everwarriors]

My statement says as much about the 4 guards presently getting playing time as it does about Blue. Nonetheless, Vander is a huge upgrade in talent.

[avid1010]

Really?  Blue has never played against DI talent offensively or defensively.  Hard for me to believe he would just step in and be better on day one, but maybe.

Neither did DJO or DB until this year, but they're better than plenty of D1 guards including the two already on the team, both of whom are seniors.  Impossible to know, but the one thing I'm sure of is that I'll like MU's backcourt 10x more next year than I do this year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Neither did DJO or DB until this year, but they're better than plenty of D1 guards including the two already on the team, both of whom are seniors.  Impossible to know, but the one thing I'm sure of is that I'll like MU's backcourt 10x more next year than I do this year.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with that.  DJO and DB played in junior college against some kids that are now in DI.  At the very least, they played against college players.

That all being said, I agree that Blue is a huge talent and an upgrade over Cube and Acker on day one.  I'm not so convinced that he's an upgrade over DB and DJO on day one.

By the way, is that Timmy jumping in that picture?

[VegasWarrior77]

By the way, is that Timmy jumping in that picture?

That's what I was wondering...!

[Murffieus]

Murff is full of it.

Vander's production is the result of not having a team that is not as talented as it was in years past, and the scheme that Coach Collins uses doesn't necessarily utilize his talent to the fullest.

My analysis has nothing to do with supposedly not having his talent fully utilized by the coach's system----- it has to do with creating his own shot. The day i saw him his ball handling was slovenly and he had 6 TOs and his defense was non existant. Missed two perfectly set up allyoop pass dunk attempts------and had trouble creating his own shot successfully against HS kids. Also his production should be much improved this year generally-----but it isn't.

Now I still consider him a good prospect because he does have talent, but at #25 nationally he's overrated.

[MUfan12]

The day i saw him...

...at #25 nationally he's overrated.

And you wonder why people get irritated with you. Good thing you weren't Ron Wolf, you would have seen 3 snaps of Favre in Atlanta and written him off.

Unbelievable.

[4everwarriors]

Well, Blue is better than the last dime a dozen guard we had.

[tower912]

You beat me to it, 4ever.   Maybe he is a freakishly athletic, 6'4 dime a dozen combo guard.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Let me guess, Murffieus either A) never played past his kindergarten co-ed YMCA league (most likely) or B) made second team all-conference in high school and believes this gives him the secret knowledge to analyzes high school players' abilities.

[ecompt]

Benny, my statement about being the best player in Wisconsin not guaranteeing instant success has nothing to do with desire or emotional makeup or anything other than the fact that the state's best player is very likely to be not on the level of the best player from, say, Illinois, or Michigan, or Indiana, or Texas, etc. That's all. I hope Vander is great but I realize he will have a huge adjustment to make to BE ball.

[MUDude4]

Let me guess, Murffieus either A) never played past his kindergarten co-ed YMCA league (most likely) or B) made second team all-conference in high school and believes this gives him the secret knowledge to analyzes high school players' abilities.

Actually Murff played at MU, believe it or not

[Benny B]

Benny, my statement about being the best player in Wisconsin not guaranteeing instant success has nothing to do with desire or emotional makeup or anything other than the fact that the state's best player is very likely to be not on the level of the best player from, say, Illinois, or Michigan, or Indiana, or Texas, etc. That's all. I hope Vander is great but I realize he will have a huge adjustment to make to BE ball.

Sorry... I misinterpreted your post.  I completely agree with what you're saying.  I thought you were taking a shot at basketball players from Wisconsin.

[Murffieus]

And you wonder why people get irritated with you. Good thing you weren't Ron Wolf, you would have seen 3 snaps of Favre in Atlanta and written him off.

Unbelievable.

I've got news for you----I was the only one in the universe that said the first time i saw him in TC-----that Aaron Rodgers was going to be a very good NFL QB (all Documented for years on the Dodds Packer site)-----even the great Bill Walsh turned thumbs dow on him!

Look----I think Blue is a good prospect-----just not a # 25 prospect (more like #50-75)----he hasn't improved over last year-----anyone who thinks he has is smoking blue & gold hashish!

[reinko]

Actually Murff played at MU, believe it or not

Indeed, look through the wiki in the mid-1950's...STUD

[Blackhat]

Who was the doofus who said Keaton Nankivil was the best wisconsin high schooler to ever come out?

[Murffieus]

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with that.  DJO and DB played in junior college against some kids that are now in DI.  At the very least, they played against college players.

That all being said, I agree that Blue is a huge talent and an upgrade over Cube and Acker on day one.  I'm not so convinced that he's an upgrade over DB and DJO on day one.

By the way, is that Timmy jumping in that picture?

I would agree with that!

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Blue & Gold Hashish!?!  I like it!

[willie warrior]

And you wonder why people get irritated with you. Good thing you weren't Ron Wolf, you would have seen 3 snaps of Favre in Atlanta and written him off.

Unbelievable.

I thought everybody in Wisconsin has already written Favre off.

[21Jumpstreet]

I think Murf has a point.  I also add that a Top 25 recruit should be able to take over the game, a cliche I know, and I haven't seen it.  Yes he throws downs some amazing dunks, but in the games I have seen he rarely asserts himself offensively or defensively.  Of course, I have seen a small sample of games.  Perhaps it is the coaching scheme, perhaps he is bored.  Either way it will be exciting to see him in Blue & Gold.

[bma725]

I think Murf has a point.  I also add that a Top 25 recruit should be able to take over the game, a cliche I know, and I haven't seen it.  Yes he throws downs some amazing dunks, but in the games I have seen he rarely asserts himself offensively or defensively.  Of course, I have seen a small sample of games.  Perhaps it is the coaching scheme, perhaps he is bored.  Either way it will be exciting to see him in Blue & Gold.

He's not a Top 25 recruit.  Anyone who says he's a top 25 recruit is either ill informed or pushing their own agenda.

Current consensus rankings have him at #53, with three different services not even including him in their Top 100.

[avid1010]

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with that.  DJO and DB played in junior college against some kids that are now in DI.  At the very least, they played against college players.

That all being said, I agree that Blue is a huge talent and an upgrade over Cube and Acker on day one.  I'm not so convinced that he's an upgrade over DB and DJO on day one.

By the way, is that Timmy jumping in that picture?

And Vander Blue spent his entire life playing with J-May who is now (??)  a DI player, not to mention all the AAU ball he plays in the summer against players that are now DI.  I have no idea the talent DB and DJO played against while being JUCO's, but the AAU teams that Vander competes against are better than plenty of "college" teams if were going to count anyone who plays basketball at a college.  What level of competition do DB and DJO play with in JUCO?  Do most of the guys they play against end up going DI or is it equal to DII or DIII type play?

[21Jumpstreet]

bma, that's my bad.  I thought I read in this post that he was Top 25.  I only know he is #53 because you just said it.  No agenda. 

[StillAWarrior]

Let me guess, Murffieus either A) never played past his kindergarten co-ed YMCA league (most likely) or B) made second team all-conference in high school and believes this gives him the secret knowledge to analyzes high school players' abilities.

I don't always agree with everything Murff says, but I'd venture a guess that he's got a hell of a lot better basketball resume that most poeple who post on this board.  It's 50+ years since he played for the Warriors and he's still got multiple top-10 records in rebounding (all-time; single-season; average; etc.).

In other words, your guess is way, way off.  Please let us know where you got all your basketball expertise.  As for me, I'm just a fan.  I've proved lots of times (both on this board and in real life) that I'm no basketball expert.

[HoopsMalone]

Blue is #22 nationally on rivals.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953

ESPN has him at #34

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/player?recruitId=44294&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fplayer%3frecruitId%3d44294


 

[bma725]

Blue is #22 nationally on rivals.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Vander-Blue-76953

ESPN has him at #34

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/tracker/player?recruitId=44294&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2frecruiting%2ftracker%2fplayer%3frecruitId%3d44294

Being a Top 25 recruit is about consensus rankings not cherry picking individual ratings.

One could look at the ones you cited and say he's great, but you could just as easily look at USA Today and Prep Stars, both of whom leave him out of the Top 100 and think he's not good.

[Lennys Tap]

Being a Top 25 recruit is about consensus rankings not cherry picking individual ratings.

One could look at the ones you cited and say he's great, but you could just as easily look at USA Today and Prep Stars, both of whom leave him out of the Top 100 and think he's not good.

Seems odd that such a disparity (#22 to 100+ and "not good") exists. Could you share your thoughts as to why that is? Also, what are your observations of Vander's game and your expectations next year and beyond. Thanks in advance.

[HoopsMalone]

Being a Top 25 recruit is about consensus rankings not cherry picking individual ratings.

One could look at the ones you cited and say he's great, but you could just as easily look at USA Today and Prep Stars, both of whom leave him out of the Top 100 and think he's not good.

True, the more opinions you have about any given topic the more developed view you can form.  Those are the ones that come up when you google a player's name and are most likely to affect people's perceptions.

[nyg]

He's not a Top 25 recruit.  Anyone who says he's a top 25 recruit is either ill informed or pushing their own agenda.

Current consensus rankings have him at #53, with three different services not even including him in their Top 100.

With Blue falling fast and no replacement for Hayward or a bigman, there's goes next year.  Oh well.

[4everwarriors]

I'm waiting for the cat who's going to post that Maymon made Blue and he's nothing without him.

[bma725]

Seems odd that such a disparity (#22 to 100+ and "not good") exists. Could you share your thoughts as to why that is? Also, what are your observations of Vander's game and your expectations next year and beyond. Thanks in advance.

I didn't mean to imply that the recruiting services think he's not good, rather I meant that one could see that he isn't ranked on those services and jump to the conclusion that he's not good.

Mostly that's a function of how often they see a kid and how he's playing when they see him.  Scout, Rivals, ESPN have much larger budgets than the smaller services because of their tie ins with the big time networks.  So they get to see a kid more often, and they get to see some variety in his game.  The smaller services don't travel as much, and don't get to see a kid as often so they generally don't have the total picture of his game.

In terms of general impressions, he's got all the tools, the issue is consistency.  He's not a great outside shooter, but he can do it.  Off the dribble there are few that can stay in front of him in the country.  Passing needs work.  Defensively, it's going to be tough.  He's stuck playing the bottom of a 1-3-1 right now, which doesn't exactly get him ready for the next level.

I think the reason many think he's struggling right now is they don't understand how different this Memorial team is than in years past.  There's a lot of guys with not much experience still trying to figure out what to do, and that effects Vander's stats and how he's able to play.