bucky goes down

[MUfan12]

For the first year they play GB it will increase. UW will always sell out regardless. And I've been to UWM/GB games at the Arena, very few GB fans travel for their biggest rival. They might the first year, but after that, who knows?

UWM's program is falling fast, and it's showed by the attendance figures the last 3 years. Sure, the first year was 17,000+ but it dropped badly. There were *maybe* 150 UWM fans there.

In fact, here are the numbers from our weeknight non-conference games:

UMES- 13511
USD- 13731
UWM- 14244

Unless UWM becomes good again, and the folks jump on the bandwagon, the attendance will be no better than a buy game (usually around 13,000). Is it worth giving up an away game for an extra 750 tickets? I say no.

The fact is, the only people who cared about this were in Shorewood and Madison. There is no more appreciable media buzz for the UWM game (after the first year). Don't see how UWGB would be any different, to be honest.

[MU1984]

Those numbers must be tickets sold because there werent 14k at the UWM game. 

I agree with your point that it isn't great to give up an away game for that small of an increase.  However, didn't they score four home games versus one that would be used for an ACC/SEC/etc school?  Also, a home/home versus an NC State isn't better than getting 2 for 1, in my opinion.  If they can get someone in the top 1/4 of a major conference then it is worth it, but that opportunity is obviously not available.

[downtown85]

For the first year they play GB it will increase. UW will always sell out regardless. And I've been to UWM/GB games at the Arena, very few GB fans travel for their biggest rival. They might the first year, but after that, who knows?

UWM's program is falling fast, and it's showed by the attendance figures the last 3 years. Sure, the first year was 17,000+ but it dropped badly. There were *maybe* 150 UWM fans there.

In fact, here are the numbers from our weeknight non-conference games:

UMES- 13511
USD- 13731
UWM- 14244

Unless UWM becomes good again, and the folks jump on the bandwagon, the attendance will be no better than a buy game (usually around 13,000). Is it worth giving up an away game for an extra 750 tickets? I say no.

Thanks for the numbers.  However, my understanding is that a 2 for 1 is a 3 game deal. So you get two home games and one away game. Using your math that is 1500 more tickets sold and you don't need to pay a cupcake for playing which can run $80,000 per game which for the two home games part of the series means $160,000 more in the pocket of the university.  I just think the economics are more balanced than you present.

[caltruda]

Just throwing it out there... is it possible that with Marquette's commitments to exemption tournaments for the immediate future (they're in one every season through 2012-13, right?) maybe created a change in philosophy for what they wanted in terms of a road game, whether it be economics or beyond?

I'd love to follow the old-school John Chaney Temple method of just signing up home-and-homes against quality non-conference opponents and do a Bataan death march that preps for the rigors of Big East play, but I know that's not feasible beyond 1-2 opponents given the men's basketball status as overwhelmingly primary moneymaker for the athletic department.

That said, if these tournaments are going to consistently provide three opponents against arguably the top third or quarter of the 31 D-1 conferences (case in point, this season's were A-10, Big Ten and ACC), is it possible the coaching staff and/or the athletic department consider the risk/reward of getting that 1.4 weight
of the road win for the RPI vs. an intrastate opponent greater than a straight-up home-and-home? And that keeps in mind, the Wisconsin game is at home in those seasons.

Just a thought.

[MUfan12]

Thanks for the numbers.  However, my understanding is that a 2 for 1 is a 3 game deal. So you get two home games and one away game. Using your math that is 1500 more tickets sold and you don't need to pay a cupcake for playing which can run $80,000 per game which for the two home games part of the series means $160,000 more in the pocket of the university.  I just think the economics are more balanced than you present.

That could very well be the case. But I thought I remembered UWM getting something like $60,000 for a game, which is outrageous if it is the case.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Can anyone cite an example of a big name program falling off because of playing a lower tier in-state school? Basically I don't think that recruits, coaches or the media thinks any differently of UW in the grand scheme of things because of this one loss the GB. Do you?

Programs fall off for a variety of reasons, but not due to one or two losses to teams like UWM or GB. It has to do with coaching, recruiting, investment by the university, etc.

What if the worst case scenario unfolds here: say we lose 2 of 3 to GB. Will we lose recruits to GB? No. Will the local media drop MU coverage in favor of GB? No. Will the BEast kick us out? No.

You say that the downside outweighs the upside, but I don't see it. Even in a worse case scenario I don't really see these non-conference games having much effect in the big picture. Our success will be determined by our recruiting, coaching, big east, and tournament results; not minor essentially meaningless games against GB.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I haven't read a single good argument not to play the series.

I'll give it a go


1)  By having 2 for 1's with UWM, UWGB, and UW-Madison, by nature this forces MU to not be able to play any other home and home series with non conference opponents from major conferences IF we stick to 17 or 18 home games (this has fluctuated in the past from 17 to 18 games the last 6 years with one exception when we hosted the beginning of the season tournament).  This is because we play 9 Big East home games, and the remaining 8 or 9 we need from a revenue perspective to fund the program. 

Basically we have substituted out our home and home, to a large extent, with these games at UWGB and at UWM.  Depending on how we stagger it, we can still have a home and home every once in awhile, but not each year UNLESS they are going to play with the number of home games we need in the future.  That is possible, but that is a significant departure from years prior.  If that's where we are going, I'd love to hear the financial argument on that.

2)  UWM is a non-player in the Milwaukee market right now.  When UWM was good a few years ago, they were getting significant press, exposure, etc.  That impacts MU.  MU has to fight the Bucks and Packers for coverage as is, adding ANOTHER entity to fight with when media resources are stretched is not something I'm excited about.  Milwaukee is too small a town, no need to help out another entity grab the public's attention.  All it takes is one or two wins in the series to accomplish this.

3)  You lock yourselves into a worse and worse deal moving forward.  As someone that negotiates deals for a living, this makes no sense to me what they have done.  We go from a 4 for 1 to a 2 for 1.  Next time around, they'll want a 2 for 1 again, and if we don't give it to them they start whining in the press again.  If they actually beat us once or twice in their gym, then it gets really problematic because they demand 1 for 1 and play another PR card.  "We're now your equals, this is great for the city, blah blah blah...we should play every year and alternate, why is MU not taking the next step".   Each year we have lost more and more control over OUR schedule by doing this and I don't think they've contemplated the what-if scenarios from a PR perspective. 

We have walked into what amounts almost to a progressive scheduling tax essentially. The more we give up, the more we will have to CONTINUE to give up.  We were in a position of strength and we have negotiated as if we held none of the cards.  How many naked pictures are out there?   

Here are the upside arguments I hear, and they are all of the fluffy, stroke me kind

1) It's good for the state  (where is it good for MU?)

2) It's good for the city (where is it good for MU?)

3) It will save on travel costs (we're talking peanuts here...the cost of traveling to Green Bay is no different that the cost of traveling to DeKalb, IL or Chicago (UIC) or slightly less than Valpo, IN)

4) It's better than playing cupcakes.  I agree, but the cupcakes aren't asking us to play at Presbyterian, N. Florida, Grambling, etc.    So if we want to replace the cupcakes with UWGB and UWM...fine....play them at MARQUETTE ONLY

5) It's not really a road game, it's an extra home game for us.  This one takes the cake.  Unless MU is getting the gate receipts and 90% of the best seats, this is hardly an extra road game.  Yeah, it's easier to travel to UWM but it will hardly be a home game for us.  Ask UW-Madison how much of a home game they had last night.  Better yet, how much of a home game did Marquette have a few years ago when we played in Green Bay against Southern Mississippi?


Now the downsides

Why put yourself in a position to lose in your backyard?  If you're going to lose, lose to someone that isn't in your backyard, won't affect your media coverage, won't help out the other guy's ticket sales, won't give bragging rights to the guy down the street.

Why substitute these games against directional hyphenated schools for programs from major conferences.  Nebraska, Wake, Arizona, etc have all done home and home with us the last number of years.

Why reward a school that has treated you like crap in the papers, media, etc, in begging for games.  Is that the new way to act, scream loud enough and whine enough and you shall be rewarded with a bigger and better deal?  Hey Viterbo....start your bitching now, we might write you a check for $1 million and play you there 10 straight games

[avid1010]

Very little talk about the financials involved, and I can't believe that's not a part of this.

Two home and one away (with slightly better attendance) instead of having to pay for a team to come in....someone with knowledge in this area care chime in on what makes better financial sense for MU?

[ChicosBailBonds]

That could very well be the case. But I thought I remembered UWM getting something like $60,000 for a game, which is outrageous if it is the case.

They got $58K, then $60K last year, and this year $62K

[ChicosBailBonds]

Can anyone cite an example of a big name program falling off because of playing a lower tier in-state school? Basically I don't think that recruits, coaches or the media thinks any differently of UW in the grand scheme of things because of this one loss the GB. Do you?

I can site plenty of big name programs that don't even allow it to be considered because it could happen.

I can also name plenty of former big name programs that now play their cross town opponents and are basically stuck playing them forever.  Depaul & St. John's to name just a few.


Do you honestly think if Marquette lost to UWM the local media wouldn't think differently of MU....you are kidding yourself.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Very little talk about the financials involved, and I can't believe that's not a part of this.

Two home and one away (with slightly better attendance) instead of having to pay for a team to come in....someone with knowledge in this area care chime in on what makes better financial sense for MU?

Don't forget to factor in that loss of revenue when you go on the road and the loss in revenue for not bringing in a non-cupcake for the home & home.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I can site plenty of big name programs that don't even allow it to be considered because it could happen.

Do you honestly think if Marquette lost to UWM the local media wouldn't think differently of MU....you are kidding yourself.

So looked up a few schedules of our fellow Beast teams over the past few years. Doesn't seem many of them flinch at playing in state lower tier schools. Let's see:

Pitt - Duquense
Syracuse - Colgate
UConn -Quinnipiac
Nova - St. Joes / LaSalle
Notre Dame - IPFW
Louisville - Western Kentucky

These seem to be pretty reputable programs, they don't back down from in state competition. Are we that fragile?

And about the local media, I was referring to long term. Do you think many local media members now consider UW-GB a better basketball program than UW? No obviously. Do they consider UW much differently? No. Be real

[ChicosBailBonds]

So looked up a few schedules of our fellow Beast teams over the past few years. Doesn't seem many of them flinch at playing in state lower tier schools. Let's see:

Pitt - Duquense
Syracuse - Colgate
UConn -Quinnipiac
Nova - St. Joes / LaSalle
Notre Dame - IPFW
Louisville - Western Kentucky

These seem to be pretty reputable programs, they don't back down from in state competition. Are we that fragile?

And about the local media, I was referring to long term. Do you think many local media members now consider UW-GB a better basketball program than UW? No obviously. Do they consider UW much differently? No. Be real

As I stated earlier, if they are both reputable programs, go for it.  But why help build one up?

Louisville - Western Kentucky has been played for decades...WKU actually has the series lead on Louisville.  They are both solid programs.

Nova - St. Joes is part of the Big Five in Philadelphia, both reputable programs, been going on for decades, all programs involved actually help each other out because they are all quality programs.  None of them "control" Philly or dominate Philly.  Poor comparison.

UCONN does not play Quinnipiac at Quinnipiac....all games at home (when they even bother to play them which is not all the time.  They do it right, games at UCONN, not AT Quinnipiac)

Syracuse v Colgate...yup....AT SYRACUSE.  They aren't stupid enough like we are to do a 2 for 1 deal and play at Colgate.  The last 8 games, all at Syracuse.

Do I think the Green Bay media think that about UW?  No.  It's UW, they're always going to get the fair shake.

Do I think if MU lost to UWM would the media in that town go into full blown erection mode?  Not a doubt in my mind.

Notre Dame vs IPFW....they've played 3 times in 10 years.

Pitt vs Duquense....as I said yesterday, there are exceptions and this is one of them.  DePaul plays UIC.  St. John's plays Fordham.  There are exceptions.

[MUfan12]

They got $58K, then $60K last year, and this year $62K

Thanks, Chicos. I'm sure UWGB will be asking for similar numbers. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks, Chicos. I'm sure UWGB will be asking for similar numbers. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Not so sure....I would hope MU did this where we don't pay them a damn thing.  The 4 for 1 was setup as 3 "buy" games and then a home and home with UWM.  I would assume we had the ability to make this 2 for 1 deal where no money is changing hands.  At least I would expect we negotiated that, but nothing would surprise me

[warthog-driver]

Do I think if MU lost to UWM would the media in that town go into full blown erection mode?  

Chico - what the hell are you talking about here? Isn't Mike Hunt the columnist for the JS? This is a horrific image, to say the very least.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Chicos I may be drunk but I can still tell youra n idiot. You are arguing St. Joseph's is at the level of 'Nova? IUPFW has played ND 3 times in 10 years: how many are we comitting to? Western Kentucky is on the same level as Louisville? You are ridiculous.

[Avenue Commons]

The fact that I replied on this thread negates how little I care about the Wisconsin Badgers.The reality is only people in Wisconsin care about this "rivalry".

[MarquetteDano]

Chicos I may be drunk but I can still tell youra n idiot. You are arguing St. Joseph's is at the level of 'Nova? IUPFW has played ND 3 times in 10 years: how many are we comitting to? Western Kentucky is on the same level as Louisville? You are ridiculous.

I don't care that much about the schedule debate but let's be fair... WKU has more wins all time than Marquette.  Western Kentucky has a very good tradition.  Last time I checked WKU was in the Top 20 ALL-TIME for NCAA wins.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

So W. Kentucky has more prestige than MU in the court of public opinion?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos I may be drunk but I can still tell youra n idiot. You are arguing St. Joseph's is at the level of 'Nova? IUPFW has played ND 3 times in 10 years: how many are we comitting to? Western Kentucky is on the same level as Louisville? You are ridiculous.

You must be drunk because you're joining the conversation late.  Early on I said if both programs are solid programs and worthy of playing each other than that's different than the situation we are in.  I used the example of Xavier and Cincinnati....two solid programs.

Western Kentucky HAS THE SERIES LEAD OVER LOUISVILLE.   They are both outstanding programs.  Of course Louisville is better currently, but not by that much.  UWM is not at the same level as MU nor are they even remotely close to any level at all, so why help them go up a few notches.  And Louisville WANTS to play this series because it chaps their ass that they trail WKU in the all-time season series.

St. Josephs....you might want to do a little research on St. Joe's over the last 50 years....another strong program in a solid conference that has a rich Big 5 tradition.  They routinely go to the post season.  Not even close to a comparison of UWM or UWGB.

[reinko]

So W. Kentucky has more prestige than MU in the court of public opinion?

Certainly there mascot has more prestige.  Big red rules.

[downtown85]

What is Bruce Pearl thinking?  Playing at Middle Tennessee?  Or is that a prestigious program as well?

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/preview?gid=200912110359

[ChicosBailBonds]

What is Bruce Pearl thinking?  Playing at Middle Tennessee?  Or is that a prestigious program as well?

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/preview?gid=200912110359

You may want to do a bit more homework....the game is a NEUTRAL COURT game, not AT Middle Tennessee.  It's at the Nashville Arena where there will be 3/4 Tennessee fans just like when Tennessee played MU in Nashville.  This is not an away game.  I'm sure you also realize this is part of the Sun Belt Classic much like UCLA plays this weekend in Anaheim as part of the Wooden Classic...bascially a home game away from home.  So your example is completely wrong, but there are exceptions that I've already mentioned.

"That could change as the schedule gets tougher for the ninth-ranked Vols (6-1). So Pearl wants his players to be more in charge, starting Friday when they face Middle Tennessee State (3-4) on a neutral court at Nashville Arena  in the Sun Belt Classic"

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Tennessee


And Bruce Pearl is certainly a guy that MU should start emulating.  

[MU B2002]

It is 1 game during the season.  Who cares? I would rather see us play UWM, UWGB, or Aveda Style institute for that matter than some other no name cupcake that we run off the court.