Fighting Sioux -- This morning's Washington Times

[WarriorHal]

Tribe battles to keep logo for the Fighting Sioux

By Valerie Richardson

The most prominent defenders of the University of North Dakota's right to call its teams the Fighting Sioux are neither alumni nor hockey fans.

They're Sioux.

A group of Spirit Lake Sioux won a temporary restraining order last week to stop the North Dakota University System from retiring the nickname and logo, one of the last in the country associated with an American Indian tribe. A hearing for a preliminary injunction is slated for Dec. 9 in Ramsey County District Court in Devils Lake, N.D.

Most such university team names have been abandoned in the face of criticism that they were offensive or derogatory, but that view isn't the only one in Indian country. Some tribal members take pride in their association with the Fighting Sioux and worry that eliminating the moniker "will cause isolation and a diminishing of public interest, knowledge and respect for Sioux history," according to the complaint.

"There are more members of the Sioux tribe that support this than oppose it," said Frank Blackcloud, a Spirit Lake Sioux and member of the tribe's Committee for Understanding and Respect, which brought the complaint.

The committee's decision to weigh in on the Fighting Sioux nickname is the latest - and most ironic - twist in a decades-old debate over the university's nickname and logo.

While Spirit Lake Sioux members are fighting to save the name, they're meeting resistance from largely nonnative groups like the faculty Senate, the College Anti-Racism Team and even the state Board of Higher Education.

Board President Richie Smith, who has come out in favor of retiring the logo and nickname, called the judge's decision to issue the restraining order "bizarre."

All this has Patrick Morley scratching his head.

"It's definitely a turnaround," said Mr. Morley, a Grand Forks, N.D., lawyer representing the Committee on Understanding and Respect.

"I don't think most people realize the Fighting Sioux is actually a source of pride to a majority of those in the tribe. You can see Fighting Sioux jerseys everywhere when you go on the reservation."

Still, pressure to eliminate the Fighting Sioux is intensifying - and not just from those who find the nickname offensive. The university, which recently moved to Division I athletics, wants to join the Summit League athletic conference, but league officials have said the nickname dispute must be resolved first.

The legal debate centers on the deadline for resolving the nickname issue.

The University of North Dakota remains the last holdout among 19 schools identified as having "hostile and abusive" mascots by the National Collegiate Athletic Association in 2005 and 2006. The other universities have either retired their Indian mascots or kept them after securing the approval of their namesake tribes.

Under a settlement reached with the state of North Dakota, the NCAA agreed to give the university until Nov. 30, 2010, to settle the matter. But the state board later passed a resolution moving up the deadline to Oct. 1, 2009, which was later extended to Oct. 31.

The Spirit Lake Sioux tribal council approved the use of the Fighting Sioux in September, after a tribal referendum election in April in which 67 percent of voters supported the university's use of the nickname and logo. To win NCAA approval, however, the university needs the blessing of a second tribe, the Standing Rock Sioux.

That tribe's leadership had long opposed the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo, but in September, the Standing Rock elected a new chairman, Charles Murphy, who has previously supported the moniker.

At a state board meeting Thursday, North Dakota University System Chancellor Bill Goetz said Mr. Murphy had told him that no referendum vote is imminent. The previous council passed a moratorium on a referendum vote, which is still in effect.

Mr. Murphy also said the issue remains contentious on the tribal council and reservation at large, Mr. Goetz said.

Even so, Mr. Blackcloud said he was confident that the Standing Rock would ultimately give its approval for the nickname, but that it's likely the tribal council doesn't want to be hurried.

"Tribal leaders like to do things in their own time," Mr. Blackcloud said. "They don't like people on the outside telling then what they have to do or when they have to do it."

His committee wants the court to move the deadline to resolve the dispute back to Nov. 30, 2010, the date set by the agreement with the NCAA, which would presumably give the Standing Rock Sioux sufficient time to come to a decision.

"For someone to try to impose a deadline on us that wasn't part of the original agreement is wrong," Mr. Blackcloud said. "The Sioux name is ours."

Critics counter that the Spirit Lake Sioux have no legal standing because the university, not the tribes, owns the nickname and logo.

"It's hard to imagine so foggy a ruling can survive clear-eyed legal scrutiny," the Fargo (N.D.) Forum editorialized.

The wait-and-see approach may be gaining steam. Mr. Blackcloud's group won an unexpected vote of confidence Sunday when the Grand Forks (N.D.) Herald, which has criticized the nickname and logo in the past, came out in favor of holding to the original deadline.

"What's the rush?" said the editorial. "After generations of being called the Fighting Sioux and several decades of controversy, UND now has a chance to resolve the issue honorably and with full and considered input from the tribes. That's worth a short - in historic terms - wait."

[LastWarrior]

"There are more members of the Sioux tribe that support this than oppose it," said Frank Blackcloud, a Spirit Lake Sioux and member of the tribe's Committee for Understanding and Respect, which brought the complaint.

While Spirit Lake Sioux members are fighting to save the name, they're meeting resistance from largely nonnative groups like the faculty Senate, the College Anti-Racism Team and even the state Board of Higher Education.

This is the problem with our country... public interest groups don't take what the public wants into account and instead pursue their own liberal agendas.  Since when does the minority dictate what the majority should do?

[Hards Alumni]

This is the problem with our country... public interest groups don't take what the public wants into account and instead pursue their own liberal agendas.  Since when does the minority dictate what the majority should do?

since always in history?

crack a book.

[Pakuni]

This is the problem with our country... public interest groups don't take what the public wants into account and instead pursue their own liberal agendas.  Since when does the minority dictate what the majority should do?

"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place"
                                                                  - Mahatma Gandhi

I'm pretty sure Gandhi wasn't speaking about something as trivial as a team nickname when he spoke of "matters of conscience."
But still, majority rule isn't always such a swell idea.

[LON]

This is the problem with our country... public interest groups don't take what the public wants into account and instead pursue their own liberal agendas.  Since when does the minority dictate what the majority should do?

I don't understand that these groups (probably made up of those not associated with the Sioux whatsoever) get offended FOR the tribe.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Ya I'm pretty sure that if the majority of the Sioux approve of the nickname it should be allowed just like FSU's Seminoles nickname is supported by the tribe.

That being said, there is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority. I may be a cynic, but I don't trust most peoples opinions about most things.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15970.msg154737#msg154737

[downtown85]

majority rule vs. minority rights is not the issue here at all.  The issue is whether a small group of brie eating, left leaning, politically correct univeristy administrators should make decisions according to their world view that, in reality, don't offend anyone.  If using Indian nicknames and symbols was truly offensive, we wouldn't have the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, Cleveland Indians, etc. etc.

Political correctness, i.e., not calling something what it is out of some fear that you might offend somebody somewhere, is offensive to me.  It has now lead to deaths when PC behavior in the army lead to looking the other way with Maj. Hasan.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

majority rule vs. minority rights is not the issue here at all.  The issue is whether a small group of brie eating, left leaning, politically correct univeristy administrators should make decisions according to their world view that, in reality, don't offend anyone.  If using Indian nicknames and symbols was truly offensive, we wouldn't have the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, Cleveland Indians, etc. etc.

I'm not in favor of changing the nickname, but your rationale here isn't very good.


Major League baseball and/or the NFL shouldn't be your compass on what is/isn't offensive.

Just because MLB allows "indians" doesn't mean that it's ok.

[Hards Alumni]

majority rule vs. minority rights is not the issue here at all.  The issue is whether a small group of brie eating, left leaning, politically correct univeristy administrators should make decisions according to their world view that, in reality, don't offend anyone.  If using Indian nicknames and symbols was truly offensive, we wouldn't have the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, Cleveland Indians, etc. etc.

Political correctness, i.e., not calling something what it is out of some fear that you might offend somebody somewhere, is offensive to me.  It has now lead to deaths when PC behavior in the army lead to looking the other way with Maj. Hasan.  

drop the politics, doofus.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Never could figure out how a positive symbol like a school or team's "Mascot" could be construed as demeaning. these are people's unifying identity. When MU asked me about changing from the Warriors, I suggested simply changing from Willie Wampun to a european but the brie eaters ignored me

[Pakuni]

What do you people have against brie?

[Skatastrophy]

What do you people have against brie?

Camembert 4 life!

[downtown85]

What do you people have against brie?

I like Brie.  

I did not intend for my comment to be political.  However, the gist of what I said stands, i.e., a politically correct elite is making poor decisions on this issue and in the name of tolerance, are in reality intolerant.   Hards_Alumni, you use an ad hominum argument, i.e., calling me a doofus, rather than supporting a counter argument with facts.  I really hope you are not an MU alum.  I thought our school taught us how to argue better than that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I really hope you are not an MU alum.  I thought our school taught us how to argue better than that.

Aren't you the guy who just said:

"If using Indian nicknames and symbols was truly offensive, we wouldn't have the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, Cleveland Indians, etc. etc."

That's terrible.

[downtown85]

Aren't you the guy who just said:

"If using Indian nicknames and symbols was truly offensive, we wouldn't have the Washington Redskins, Chicago Blackhawks, Cleveland Indians, etc. etc."

That's terrible.

I don't quite understand where you are getting with this?  Which logical fallacy did I use?

I probably should have added the Fighting Irish as well?  There's an offensive stereotype for you.  I bet you there is some Irishman somewhere upset with that name. 

Maybe I missed it but are there boycotts of the teams I mentioned? 

[wyoMUfan]

I like Brie.  

I did not intend for my comment to be political.  However, the gist of what I said stands, i.e., a politically correct elite is making poor decisions on this issue and in the name of tolerance, are in reality intolerant.   Hards_Alumni, you use an ad hominum argument, i.e., calling me a doofus, rather than supporting a counter argument with facts.  I really hope you are not an MU alum.  I thought our school taught us how to argue better than that.

I made the mistake of taking logic at 9am mon/wed/fri first semester freshman year....needless to say I didn't learn much about arguments... Worst class in college.

[Hards Alumni]

I like Brie.  

I did not intend for my comment to be political.  However, the gist of what I said stands, i.e., a politically correct elite is making poor decisions on this issue and in the name of tolerance, are in reality intolerant.   Hards_Alumni, you use an ad hominum argument, i.e., calling me a doofus, rather than supporting a counter argument with facts.  I really hope you are not an MU alum.  I thought our school taught us how to argue better than that.

You incorrectly assume that I am arguing that in this case it is silly to force a name change.  This is what is called a moot point.  While I DO agree that there is no need to change the mascot/team name in this case, as 2k2mualum pointed out, your argument is rather lackluster when you say that the name "Redskins" doesn't offend anyone simply because it exists.  IN FACT, it offends a LOT of people (myself included).  People would be crapping their pants all over the US if there was a NFL team called the "Blackskins" with an African warrior head on a helmet.  The Redskins refuse to change their name due to 'tradition' and NOT because people aren't offended.

be real man... I just disapprove of pulling politics into the conversation... since they are forbidden on these boards... and because my views probably don't fly with most people on this forum... so rather than me (and others I'm sure) waste half my day at work typing back and forth about politics, the moderators have chosen to disallow the discussion.

[4everwarriors]

Bring back Willie Wampum and all the glory of his paper mache' head.

[LastWarrior]

since always in history?

crack a book.

Crack a book... interesting response.  What book would that be?  Perhaps a book on communism?  Communism is based on the premise that the state dictates what is best for the people (rule by minority).  Democracy is based on the principle of government by popularly elected officials (rule by majority).  Just a refresher on how the government in the U.S. works... our representatives are elected by MAJORITY,  legislation is passed by MAJORITY vote and a popularly elected (AGAIN BY MAJORITY) President signs legislation into law.  

I'm sure you'll disagree so here are the two definitions...

Democracy: government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.


Communism: A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

My point above is that it is commonplace in the U.S. these days to see special interest groups try take away the principles of democracy from the people.  If the majority of folks are for the name, then let it stand!

Also, how about you stop resorting to name calling... that's pretty immature.

[muwarrior87]

I probably should have added the Fighting Irish as well?  There's an offensive stereotype for you.  I bet you there is some Irishman somewhere upset with that name. 
 

I know quite a few personally.

[downtown85]

You incorrectly assume that I am arguing that in this case it is silly to force a name change.  This is what is called a moot point.  While I DO agree that there is no need to change the mascot/team name in this case, as 2k2mualum pointed out, your argument is rather lackluster when you say that the name "Redskins" doesn't offend anyone simply because it exists.  IN FACT, it offends a LOT of people (myself included).  People would be crapping their pants all over the US if there was a NFL team called the "Blackskins" with an African warrior head on a helmet.  The Redskins refuse to change their name due to 'tradition' and NOT because people aren't offended.

be real man... I just disapprove of pulling politics into the conversation... since they are forbidden on these boards... and because my views probably don't fly with most people on this forum... so rather than me (and others I'm sure) waste half my day at work typing back and forth about politics, the moderators have chosen to disallow the discussion.

Point taken on the politics angle.  I didn't intend to bring in politics.

Regarding the "offensive" names.  I agree that it is possible that offensive names exist but I also think that if a couple of people are offended by something that it doesn't necessarily warrant changing them.  We would live our lives in a milktoast world, living at the whims of others.  On the other hand, I would also agree that there comes a point where something becomes offensive to "society."  It is at that point when such offensive names shouldn't be used anymore.  My argument is that the NCAA decision-makers and various university adminstrations have decided something that is far away from reaching that point.

I really don't want to get into discussion now about what is offensive to "society" because you and I probably differ and it would involve discussing politics.  So I am happy to leave it at that.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't quite understand where you are getting with this?  Which logical fallacy did I use?

I probably should have added the Fighting Irish as well?  There's an offensive stereotype for you.  I bet you there is some Irishman somewhere upset with that name. 

Maybe I missed it but are there boycotts of the teams I mentioned? 

Just because major league baseball allows "Indians" doesn't mean it's not offensive.


Let me restate:

I'm not personally offended by the mascots of sport teams... but just because there are teams out there using them doesn't mean that it's right.

There are certainly arguments that can be made in favor of keeping the fightin' Sioux nickname, I just don't think "Major league baseball does it" is valid. Major league baseball should not be used as an example of some sort of moral/political high ground.

[NCMUFan]

Bring back Willie Wampum and all the glory of his paper mache' head.

I love the Warrior nick name.  But if there was a poster child for offensive mascots Willie was it.  In my opinion, if we had no Willie we would probably still be called the Warriors.  Didn't we play a team last year called the "Chippewas" from Michigan?

[______]

As an Irish-American I demand that ND rename themselves the Gold