With all this talent how can we not get a solid big?

[CAINMUTINY]

Granted I haven't looked at who is available, but any player that would want to play and win should seriously consider MU.

I have to say we really need to commend Buzz on his recruiting abilities; as he is certainly consistant.

[Markusquette]

Really solid bigs are hard to get because many of them are going to the top schools.  I am a bit surprised we haven't gotten a solid big yet because Buzz was good at recruiting big men before coming to MU.  However, Buzz did get Monterale Clark and from what I read he would have been a solid contributor and was a top JUCO big man.  Unfortunately he made some bad decisions and don't expect to see him in blue and gold.  I think his best chance now is nabbing one of the better big men in JUCO for 2010, but anything is possible.....especially with the three players we have coming in.

[HoopsMalone]

Buzz got Liam too don't forget.  He has gotten Otule to keep his commitment, Liam, Oooz part II, and Clark.  Just has not had any luck yet, though we will see how they develop.

We need a solid big man from the Marquette area (Wisconsin, Twin Cities, and Chicago) to come to MU over one of the elite schools.  Someone who just wants to go to MU.  Or Buzz can work som magic in Texas.  Otherwise, MU is not an obvious spot for a big guy to come play for what seems like a guard only team. 

I don't know how many bigs from Memphis or the east coast are going to come when they have other options that consistently produce solid bigs.

[hdog1017]

It's hard to get quality big men because they are mostly "one & done" players that go to the big time schools.  They play their one year/two years tops, then leave for the association.  The big schools then replenish with said big men, the cycle repeats itself. 

[Rockmic87]

Lets face it, we have done poorly in recruiting big men, only jackson and Merrit are the only bigs from the state of wisconsin. Otherwise, we have lost a number of descent bigs to UW or other schools. There are a number of 3 star bigs available both in HS and JUCO, so I would expect buzz to sign one by the end of the spring signing period. However, to this day, I have never understood why Brian Butch went to UW over MU, where he would have started as a freshman and not have had to redshirt.

[Daniel]

Once we get a pretty much ready-to-play big, the cycle may change for us - hope it does with the last scholie@

[El Duderino]

With the way the roster is shaping up, just finding a big man that can rebound well and play good defense would be fine with me. Any offense provided would be gravy.

[Rockmic87]

I think Buzz could use a legit Big man coach on the team as an assistant to help lure Bigs into coming to MU.

[Rockmic87]

BTW...are we 100% a no go for Jayvaughn Pinkston? Im pretty sure he could get a lot of minutes, if not start for us as a freshman.

[bma725]

Granted I haven't looked at who is available, but any player that would want to play and win should seriously consider MU.

I have to say we really need to commend Buzz on his recruiting abilities; as he is certainly consistant.

Most of the top level bigs end their recruitment a long time ago.  There is literally one true big man left unsigned in the Top 100, and chances are he never plays college ball.  The others are tall skinny guys that want to play outside, or inside guys that lack size.

There just aren't many big men out there.

[Rockmic87]

Most of the top level bigs end their recruitment a long time ago.  There is literally one true big man left unsigned in the Top 100, and chances are he never plays college ball.  The others are tall skinny guys that want to play outside, or inside guys that lack size.

There just aren't many big men out there.

Were still having a hard time landing 3 star bigs, let alone 4/5 star ones.

[bma725]

Were still having a hard time landing 3 star bigs, let alone 4/5 star ones.

True, but there aren't many of those either.  The traditional back to the basket big man with the traditional post moves and larger than normal size is a dying breed.  There's generally less than 10 of them per year. 

What you've got is a hodge podge of guys with the appropriate size but without the skill(think Otule) guys with the height but without the weight(Mbao) or guys with the skills that just aren't big enough(Maymon).  Throw in the fact that many teams at all levels are running offenses that have turned the 4 man into a perimeter player and the number of college ready big men shrinks even more.

[StillWarriors]

Having followed the Black and Pinkston discussion in the context of MU's need for solid big men, I can't help but wonder whether Black or Pinkston would fulfill that need. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been nice to land Black or be nice to land Pinkston, but it doesn't seem to me they are true big men at 6'7" or so. Am I missing something here?

[bma725]

Having followed the Black and Pinkston discussion in the context of MU's need for solid big men, I can't help but wonder whether Black or Pinkston would fulfill that need. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been nice to land Black or be nice to land Pinkston, but it doesn't seem to me they are true big men at 6'7" or so. Am I missing something here?

Not really.  Like I've been saying, there just aren't many true bigs out there with Big East level talent.  There's only a dozen or so Top 100 kids that are 6'9 or taller, several of them are far to thin to play the post and a couple are better suited on the perimeter.

History has shown that you're better off sacrificing size than sacrificing talent, Pitt did pretty well with DeJuan Blair who's about the same height as those guys, and Nova was good with Cunningham who is maybe an inch taller.  Samardo Samuels may be the best big in the league and he's only 6'8.

Given the dearth of talented and ideally sized big men, you're better off taking a talented but undersized guy than a guy that's the right size but doesn't have much talent.

[StillWarriors]

Thanks, that's what I figured. I guess you could throw Harangody in that mix as well.

Xavier jumps out at me as a school that has done a great job consistently getting solid college "bigs" who ultimately end up as forwards in the NBA with Tyrone Hill, Brian Grant, David West and others.

[bma725]

Thanks, that's what I figured. I guess you could throw Harangody in that mix as well.

Right.  Just for fun, take a look at the measurements from the NBA pre draft camp last year and look at the guys that were considered to be the best big men in the Big East....i.e. those that played the 4 and 5 positions.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

DeJuan Blair - 6'6.5
Jeff Adrien - 6'6.5
Sam Young - 6'6.75
Luke Harangody - 6'8
Dante Cunningham - 6'8.25
DeJuan Summers - 6'8
Earl Clark - 6'10.25
Hasheem Thabeet - 7'2.5

So of the guys that were truly among the league's elite in the post, most were 6'8 or shorter. 

[HoopsMalone]

Fulce is probably big enough to be competitive defensively and on the boards for the next two years.  Butler also rebounds extremely well for his size too, so we have that going for us the next two seasons. 

It would be nice to have a guy with strength who can finish when the guards penetrate and dish to him though.

[El Duderino]

Not really.  Like I've been saying, there just aren't many true bigs out there with Big East level talent.  There's only a dozen or so Top 100 kids that are 6'9 or taller, several of them are far to thin to play the post and a couple are better suited on the perimeter.

History has shown that you're better off sacrificing size than sacrificing talent, Pitt did pretty well with DeJuan Blair who's about the same height as those guys, and Nova was good with Cunningham who is maybe an inch taller.  Samardo Samuels may be the best big in the league and he's only 6'8.

Given the dearth of talented and ideally sized big men, you're better off taking a talented but undersized guy than a guy that's the right size but doesn't have much talent.

I agree with that as an in general policy, but i do think it's smart to take a flier or two on bigs so long as you feel you've recruited well enough at getting guards and forwards. Like how Buzz took a flier on Mbao and Crean did with Barro. In most conferences, there is a team or multiple teams that end up with a very solid to good big man 6'8 to 7'0 that wasn't a top 100 kid in high school. The big may not be say a 15ppg scorer, but is a guy that can at least rebound, play solid defense, and score once in awhile. Sure it could be partially or a lot of luck that the guy became much more valuable than his high school ranking, but some of it also has to go on the teams staff for spotting what was an underrated big guy with room to develop. Plus, in some games, you just have to have somebody on the team with enough size, length, and/or thickness in the paint to defend a good big man on an opposing team, even if your big isn't an overly skilled player.

[RawdogDX]

Right.  Just for fun, take a look at the measurements from the NBA pre draft camp last year and look at the guys that were considered to be the best big men in the Big East....i.e. those that played the 4 and 5 positions.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

DeJuan Blair - 6'6.5
Jeff Adrien - 6'6.5
Sam Young - 6'6.75
Luke Harangody - 6'8
Dante Cunningham - 6'8.25
DeJuan Summers - 6'8
Earl Clark - 6'10.25
Hasheem Thabeet - 7'2.5

So of the guys that were truly among the league's elite in the post, most were 6'8 or shorter. 

Ok, so why can't we land a 6'6-8 stud post player?

[MU B2002]

Ok, so why can't we land a 6'6-8 stud post player?

I thought we did in J May.

[chapman]

A huge part of it is the offense.  Look at how Otule talks and how Buzz talks about him.  His whole job is to get position so he can rebound when someone else misses.  He really isn't part of the offense.  Sure you can tell a talented recruiting target that they would get touches inside and they would be a bigger part of the offense than what that role has been in the past, but they're decision is going to be to go with the team whose offense has always utilized their bigs as more than an offensive rebounder. 

[bma725]

Ok, so why can't we land a 6'6-8 stud post player?

Simple, because there are very few of them as well, and they aren't going to go play for a coach that hasn't shown he can develop someone into a top level post player.  It's a cyclical thing.  You need a post player to develop in order to convince other post players to come, but you can't develop someone who didn't have the talent to begin with.

That means that MU is going to have to make due with lower level prospects and hope one develops, or take a highly regarded prospect at another position and turn him into a post player.  That's what GTown did with Summers and Nova did with Cunningham.  Those guys were both small forward types coming out of high school and even through their first year or two in college.  But they were able to coach them into being competent post guys.

It's a function of the way the game is played at the high school level today.  Perhaps its a little different at the lower levels, but AAU ball and high level high school ball is a run and gun game without much time for developing post play.  

For all the gnashing of teeth about losing Black, did anyone look closely at his videos or actually read the reports about him?  Sure he's 6'8 and a good athlete, but did you see a variety of post move or notice glowing reports about his abilities in the post?  Of course not, because he doesn't have them.  He's considered one of the best post prospects in the country, and nearly every report about him mentions how he doesn't really have post moves as part of his game.  He's essentially a garbage man, he scores most of his points off rebounds and dunks that were set up by his teammates.  But throwing the ball into the post and having him make a move...that's not going to happen, at least not for awhile.

I realize it's not what people want to hear, but it's the way it is.  MU is going to have to make due by playing small ball better than anyone else, or hoping that Buzz is able to turn one of the guys we have into a post stud.

[bma725]

I thought we did in J May.

He's not really a post player, at least not ideally.  He's got low post moves, but he's at his best in the high post(free throw line) or in the wide post.  That allows him to use his best assets more.  He's an excellent passer for someone his size, and he's pretty good off the dribble.  Those get negated a bit in the low post.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Why do we have to have this stupid discussion every month or so?????!!!!!!!!!!!


Bottom line unless you are UNC or Kansas or Ohio State you are not going to get the 5 star bigs.  In the meantime Buzz has had us in on some really nice bigs with potential and just missed out. 

So given where we and about 300 other D1 schools are in regards to big men what are our choices?????  well, we have 2 choices.  The first is to do what the previous regime did and that was to sign no bigs whatsoever.

The second option is to do what other successful programs do and that is sign big atletic bigs and develop them over time.  Now people are bitching about our dearth of bigs, but Buzz has done it right he got Otule, Mcmorrow, Mbao and Calrk in less than 18 months on the job.  Unfortunately 2 of them will not be with us.  But again the method that buzz is following is the right one...sign a big every year and work to develop him. By the time they are juniors they will be solid.  it simply takes that long.  In the meantime recruit like hell and hope you can find that player that is ready to perform as a frshman or a soph.

Sign a big every year and each year you have a junior and senior ready to perform and a freshman and sophomore in development.  unfortunately this process takes 4 years when you start with nothing.  Mu's problem this year and last is the previous regime did not stock the cupboard.  We have a freshman and a sophomore big, only.  Thanks to Buzz we have that, next year we will be closer.  i fully expect Buzz to continue to recruit a big, that at best will be ready to help next year and at worst will not be, but  after a couple of years of weight room and practice will be ready to contribute as a junior. 

People need to relax that is how other schools do it.  Just to our west Bo Ryan has done a wonderful job of it.  even using the redshirt to get the kids 5 years.  Guys like Butch, steinsma, nankivil, wilkinson, etc....none of them were superstars and none of them were counted on to achor the 5 position as freshman.  They were in many cases 4th year juniors before they even got any measurable time.  yet by that time they had put on 25+ lbs of muscle and could play in the system and worst casesdefend and rebound their position and as Buzz says not look like they just dropped in from Mars. 

Bigs take time to develop, the previous regime left Buzz a crater that cannot be filled over night.  georgetowns' Hibbert stunk until he was Junior, Aaron grey was terrible until he was a junior, Thabeet was terrible as a freshman, and the beat goes on... MU fans look at those guys and say why cant we get those guys?  well  most Mu fans probbaly did not even know they were on those teams rosters when they were freshmen... becuase they were playing behind junior and senior bigs.  Otule and Mboa will be very solid when they are a senior and junior.  Unfortunately right now they are a soph and a fresh.  Thank buzz for filling the pipeline. 

[79Warrior]

Fulce is probably big enough to be competitive defensively and on the boards for the next two years.  Butler also rebounds extremely well for his size too, so we have that going for us the next two seasons. 

It would be nice to have a guy with strength who can finish when the guards penetrate and dish to him though.

If Fulce is your answer for a big, be prepared to be disappointed in BE play. No way he qualifies as a banger