Big East preview

[Marquette84]

1. Any players stats improve when the competition (both internal and external) is diminished. So yes, DJ (or Lazar or Jerel or any high D1 player) would see his numbers improve while playing with and against much weaker players.

Fine--you think BU had better finishers than MU.  I think Jerel, Wes and Lazar were FAR more capable of finishing than anyone on BU's squad.  Lets just agree to disagree on this, end of story.

2.Fulce and O'Tule were in Crean's last class not Buzz's first. After TC left and Taylor and N. Williams reneged, Buzz was forced to scramble and signed Butler and McMorrow. Liam was unfortunately injured so will never be able to evaluate him. Butler is head and shoulders above the dregs TC historically brought to MU in the late signing period. Remember Niv, Christian, etc.? Advantage Buzz in both Class 1 and 2.

So do we get to count Erik Williams a Crean recruit as well?   

I think you're forgetting that Buzz recruited these players as an MU assistant.  It wasn't as if all of a sudden he "forced to scramble"  He was already out recruiting on MU's dime to find players to attend MU.  The only thing that changed was that his business card said "head" instead of "assistant".

Liam was unfortunately injured so will never be able to evaluate him. Butler is head and shoulders above the dregs TC historically brought to MU in the late signing period. Remember Niv, Christian, etc.? Advantage Buzz in both Class 1 and 2.

So now you're no longer comparing to Crean's "average" class, you're singling out "the dregs TC historically brought to MU in the late signing period." Nice.

Why don't you focus on the core rotation both coaches have recruited?

3.You have put forth the proposition that somehow 2005-6 = 2009-10. You then draw conclusions based on this flawed and false premise. Garbage in garbage out.

I've offered you to tell me exactly how this comparison is flawed--but you give me generalities like 'these are different teams with different players'.  Funny, the "different teams/players" argument wasn't a factor when it comes time for you to declare Buzz a better recruiter or coach.

Let me remind you how closely the two teams match up in terms of position and experience:

Starters:

• Novak (sr) vs. Hayward (sr)
• Chapman (sr) vs. Butler (jr)
• McNeal (fr) vs. DJO (soph)
• James (fr) vs. Buycks (jr) and Cadougan (fr)
• Matthews (fr) vs. Erik Williams (fr)

Bench:

• Amoroso (so)/Burke(fr) vs. Maymon (fr)
• Barro (so) vs. Otule (so)
• Lott (Jr. Juco transfer) vs. Fulce (Jr. Juco transfer)
• Fitzgerald (soph transfer) vs. Roseboro (fr)
• Kinsella (so Juco Transfer) vs. Mbao (fr)
• Grimm (sr) vs. Cubillan (sr)

I'm not sure why you keep saying these teams aren't comparable.  I think position by position, it provides the opportunity for an almost perfect comparison.

Actually, I know exactly why you claim the comparison is flawed.  You know in your heart of hearts that its highly unlikely that 2010 will match the 2006 performance.  But you don't want to offer even begrudging credit to Crean for recruiting and coaching that 2006 team.

As I've consistently said, the jury is still out on Buzz.  I'm not making a decision based on my personal feelings toward either coach--I'm going to use the on-court performance.  If Buzz surpasses Crean's accomplishments, i'll be the first one to give him credit.

I don't think Buzz has proven anything yet--this year will be a good test.

[Lennys Tap]

Fine--you think BU had better finishers than MU.  I think Jerel, Wes and Lazar were FAR more capable of finishing than anyone on BU's squad.  Lets just agree to disagree on this, end of story.


So do we get to count Erik Williams a Crean recruit as well?   

I think you're forgetting that Buzz recruited these players as an MU assistant.  It wasn't as if all of a sudden he "forced to scramble"  He was already out recruiting on MU's dime to find players to attend MU.  The only thing that changed was that his business card said "head" instead of "assistant".

So now you're no longer comparing to Crean's "average" class, you're singling out "the dregs TC historically brought to MU in the late signing period." Nice.

Why don't you focus on the core rotation both coaches have recruited?

I've offered you to tell me exactly how this comparison is flawed--but you give me generalities like 'these are different teams with different players'.  Funny, the "different teams/players" argument wasn't a factor when it comes time for you to declare Buzz a better recruiter or coach.

Let me remind you how closely the two teams match up in terms of position and experience:

Starters:

• Novak (sr) vs. Hayward (sr)
• Chapman (sr) vs. Butler (jr)
• McNeal (fr) vs. DJO (soph)
• James (fr) vs. Buycks (jr) and Cadougan (fr)
• Matthews (fr) vs. Erik Williams (fr)

Bench:

• Amoroso (so)/Burke(fr) vs. Maymon (fr)
• Barro (so) vs. Otule (so)
• Lott (Jr. Juco transfer) vs. Fulce (Jr. Juco transfer)
• Fitzgerald (soph transfer) vs. Roseboro (fr)
• Kinsella (so Juco Transfer) vs. Mbao (fr)
• Grimm (sr) vs. Cubillan (sr)

I'm not sure why you keep saying these teams aren't comparable.  I think position by position, it provides the opportunity for an almost perfect comparison.

Actually, I know exactly why you claim the comparison is flawed.  You know in your heart of hearts that its highly unlikely that 2010 will match the 2006 performance.  But you don't want to offer even begrudging credit to Crean for recruiting and coaching that 2006 team.

As I've consistently said, the jury is still out on Buzz.  I'm not making a decision based on my personal feelings toward either coach--I'm going to use the on-court performance.  If Buzz surpasses Crean's accomplishments, i'll be the first one to give him credit.

I don't think Buzz has proven anything yet--this year will be a good test.

You are certainly entitled to any whacky theories you choose. You are not, however, entitled to distort my words and their meanings. I made the simple statement that the easier the competition (both internally and externally) the better a player's numbers (statistics) would be. In other words, a good player on a good HIGH D1 team would become a DOMINANT player on a LOW D1 team.

Last year, for example, Jonathon Jones (Oakland) and Brock Young (East Carolina) were nos. 1 and 2 in assists per game in D1, easily outdistancing, among others, Ty Lawson of North Carolina. I think we can agree that Lawson played with the very "best finishers" in college basketball at UNC. Ergo, his numbers would dip (based on your theory) if he was forced to play with Jones or Young's teamates, widening the statistical gap between them. I think that even you will agree that this is unlikely since Lawson isa much better player than Jones or Young. What would happen is that Lawson, being head and shoulders above both his teamates and opponents, would dominate at an Oakland or East Carolina. The same holds true for DJ at a place like Bighamton.

I'm waiting for your acknowledgement regarding your distortions of my position. When received I'll respond to the rest of your post.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Hey guys,

Isn't there already a 2006 vs 2010 thread?

Can't we merge this pissing match in with the other one?

I'm not sure starting/redirecting a new thread is really helping either of your cases.


EDIT: For the record, my statement in this thread has nothing to do with Lenny, but rather just do to the time I read the thread and had time to respond.

I'm not taking sides. I just think this debate could be contained in 1 thread.

[Lennys Tap]

Hey guys,

Isn't there already a 2006 vs 2010 thread?

Can't we merge this pissing match in with the other one?

I'm not sure starting/redirecting a new thread is really helping either of your cases.

The "2006 vs 2010 thread" as you call it has indeed been talked to death. Since 2005-6 represented TC best coaching performance in a 10 year career 84 wants it to be the gold standard in evaluating TC vs Buzz. The majority of the board sees through the ruse and is on record to that effect. My last post, though, has nothing to do with 84 or anyone else painting a biased (pro or con) assessment of the Crean era. It's about posters intentionally misrepresenting other's statements.

84's post (including his ongoing 2006-10 rant which has become his holy grail) was up for almost 24 hours before I responded to the part that was most egregiously dishonest personally towards me - a part, by the way, that had nothing to do with 2006 vs 2010. Yet you waited until after my reply to offer your 2 cents/lecture. Wonder why that is?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think what Lenny is trying to say is .... "that often you will ignore the meat of a post and start an argument on the margains over what amounts to a throwaway line. You also do this frequently to effectively "change the subject" when the discussion is not going well for you."


 

[Marquette84]

You are certainly entitled to any whacky theories you choose. You are not, however, entitled to distort my words and their meanings. I made the simple statement that the easier the competition (both internally and externally) the better a player's numbers (statistics) would be. In other words, a good player on a good HIGH D1 team would become a DOMINANT player on a LOW D1 team.

Last year, for example, Jonathon Jones (Oakland) and Brock Young (East Carolina) were nos. 1 and 2 in assists per game in D1, easily outdistancing, among others, Ty Lawson of North Carolina. I think we can agree that Lawson played with the very "best finishers" in college basketball at UNC. Ergo, his numbers would dip (based on your theory) if he was forced to play with Jones or Young's teamates, widening the statistical gap between them. I think that even you will agree that this is unlikely since Lawson isa much better player than Jones or Young. What would happen is that Lawson, being head and shoulders above both his teamates and opponents, would dominate at an Oakland or East Carolina. The same holds true for DJ at a place like Bighamton.

I'm waiting for your acknowledgement regarding your distortions of my position. When received I'll respond to the rest of your post.

Let me make this absolutely clear for you:

I remain convinced that if you put Tiki Mayben on MU's team, he would have more assists than he had at Binghamton.  Likewise, I am convinced that if James played for Binghamon, his assists levels would fall.  Both of these are a direct reflection of the relative quality of the finishers of the two teams.

I believe that Lawson's assist numbers would drop if he went to Oakland or East Carolina-- for much the same reason.

I am confident making that statement about Mayben because he had a reputation as an outstanding passer in HS, was good enough to be ranked #43 on RSCI out of HS, was signed by Jim Boeheim to play at Syracuse (but didn't make the academic cut).  

I haven't looked at Young or Jones so I'm not going to comment on them.

Is that clear enough for you?

Now, I've stated this very clearly on several occasions, and all you seem to be able to do is reply with insults.  If you want to disagree, then just say you disagree.  

Finally, your willingness to pepper your posts with terms like "clueless", "sophomoric", "intellectually dishonest", "whacky," or any of the other loaded words you use leaves me unsympathetic to your hurt feelings over any self-perceived "distortion" of your view.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

84's post (including his ongoing 2006-10 rant which has become his holy grail) was up for almost 24 hours before I responded to the part that was most egregiously dishonest personally towards me - a part, by the way, that had nothing to do with 2006 vs 2010. Yet you waited until after my reply to offer your 2 cents/lecture. Wonder why that is?

Good grief, Lenny.

The fact that I posted after one of your posts has nothing to with you. Please don't read anything into that.


Mods, can you can move my original post up in the chain to go after one of MU84's posts so it doesn't seem like I'm taking sides? I think both people in this argument are equally annoying.

[Marquette84]

Good grief, Lenny.

The fact that I posted after one of your posts has nothing to with you. Please don't read anything into that.


Mods, can you can move my original post up in the chain to go after one of MU84's posts so it doesn't seem like I'm taking sides? I think both people in this argument are equally annoying.

Fine--you want me--here I am.

In fact, I'll take your shot and hit it right back:

You've made two posts in this thread--both of which were complaints about the direction the discussion has taken.   I thought this was a Marquette basketball board--not a "Complain About the Direction Threads may take" board.

You yourself haven't offered any opinion, agreement, disagreement, added facts, considered response, or other significant contribution, other than to state that you "don't want to take sides" or find these discussions "annoying."
  
Has anything I or anyone else said prevented you from participating?  

If you want to participate in the discussion--then participate.  If you want to go in a different direction, post some opinions.   Agree.  Disagree.  Whatever.  



I may disagree with Lenny, but this type of post is more annoying because its cloaked in a holier-than-thou tone of self-appointed guardian of what we should and should not talk about.


BTW, if you don't like the direction the thread has taken in the comparision of 06 versus 10, then go after Nukem--he was the one who first inserted it into the discussion in the fifth post of the thread:
"People should not have unrealistic expectations for this team.  Comparing it to the Amigos frosh season is silly since these are different players and coaches in a BE that has changed. "

I responded by saying that the comparison is absolutely appropriate--and things took off from there.

Since that post, every post I've made has been to respond to a shot taken at me by someone else--including yours.  

Now, aren't you glad you insisted that your post should have been under one of mine?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Fine--you want me--here I am.

In fact, I'll take your shot and hit it right back:

You've made two posts in this thread--both of which were complaints about the direction the discussion has taken.   I thought this was a Marquette basketball board--not a "Complain About the Direction Threads may take" board.

You yourself haven't offered any opinion, agreement, disagreement, added facts, considered response, or other significant contribution, other than to state that you "don't want to take sides" or find these discussions "annoying."
  
Has anything I or anyone else said prevented you from participating?  

If you want to participate in the discussion--then participate.  If you want to go in a different direction, post some opinions.   Agree.  Disagree.  Whatever.  



I may disagree with Lenny, but this type of post is more annoying because its cloaked in a holier-than-thou tone of self-appointed guardian of what we should and should not talk about.


BTW, if you don't like the direction the thread has taken in the comparision of 06 versus 10, then go after Nukem--he was the one who first inserted it into the discussion in the fifth post of the thread:
"People should not have unrealistic expectations for this team.  Comparing it to the Amigos frosh season is silly since these are different players and coaches in a BE that has changed. "

I responded by saying that the comparison is absolutely appropriate--and things took off from there.

Since that post, every post I've made has been to respond to a shot taken at me by someone else--including yours.  

Now, aren't you glad you insisted that your post should have been under one of mine?

Yikes.

I just thought we could combine threads (seen as there was already one on this very topic), I didn't mean for this to turn into such an issue.

This thread started about the Big East preview, and degenerated into something between you an Lenny.

I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't openly admit that this has happened to me before, so I assure you that I'm holier-than-nobody.

I'm out.

Back to your regularly scheduled debating.

[Lennys Tap]

Fine--you want me--here I am.

In fact, I'll take your shot and hit it right back:

You've made two posts in this thread--both of which were complaints about the direction the discussion has taken.   I thought this was a Marquette basketball board--not a "Complain About the Direction Threads may take" board.

You yourself haven't offered any opinion, agreement, disagreement, added facts, considered response, or other significant contribution, other than to state that you "don't want to take sides" or find these discussions "annoying."
  
Has anything I or anyone else said prevented you from participating?  

If you want to participate in the discussion--then participate.  If you want to go in a different direction, post some opinions.   Agree.  Disagree.  Whatever.  



I may disagree with Lenny, but this type of post is more annoying because its cloaked in a holier-than-thou tone of self-appointed guardian of what we should and should not talk about.


BTW, if you don't like the direction the thread has taken in the comparision of 06 versus 10, then go after Nukem--he was the one who first inserted it into the discussion in the fifth post of the thread:
"People should not have unrealistic expectations for this team.  Comparing it to the Amigos frosh season is silly since these are different players and coaches in a BE that has changed. "

I responded by saying that the comparison is absolutely appropriate--and things took off from there.

Since that post, every post I've made has been to respond to a shot taken at me by someone else--including yours.  

Now, aren't you glad you insisted that your post should have been under one of mine?

I'm 100% with you on this. 2002 reminds me of the guy in the old Miller Lite "less filling/tastes better" commercials who "feels very strongly both ways". Being annoyed by people just because they actually express real opinions on a message board is annoying to me.

[Lennys Tap]

I think what Lenny is trying to say is .... "that often you will ignore the meat of a post and start an argument on the margains over what amounts to a throwaway line. You also do this frequently to effectively "change the subject" when the discussion is not going well for you."


 

Touche.

[Lennys Tap]

Let me make this absolutely clear for you:

I remain convinced that if you put Tiki Mayben on MU's team, he would have more assists than he had at Binghamton.  Likewise, I am convinced that if James played for Binghamon, his assists levels would fall.  Both of these are a direct reflection of the relative quality of the finishers of the two teams.

I believe that Lawson's assist numbers would drop if he went to Oakland or East Carolina-- for much the same reason.

I am confident making that statement about Mayben because he had a reputation as an outstanding passer in HS, was good enough to be ranked #43 on RSCI out of HS, was signed by Jim Boeheim to play at Syracuse (but didn't make the academic cut).  

I haven't looked at Young or Jones so I'm not going to comment on them.

Is that clear enough for you?

Now, I've stated this very clearly on several occasions, and all you seem to be able to do is reply with insults.  If you want to disagree, then just say you disagree.  

Finally, your willingness to pepper your posts with terms like "clueless", "sophomoric", "intellectually dishonest", "whacky," or any of the other loaded words you use leaves me unsympathetic to your hurt feelings over any self-perceived "distortion" of your view.

I apologize and I really disagree. I honestly didn't think you really believed that as a player moved down the ladder to play with and against weaker competition his numbers would suffer. Can we therefore assume that your stance would be that, say, Michael Jordan would have been nearly invisible in the NBDL? Or that a starter on the 8th grade team would see his numbers dip if he moved down to the 7th grade team? This goes counter to everything I've seen and experienced in 50+ years of playing and watching sports. I'd be interested in actual examples of this proving true if you can provide them.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm 100% with you on this. 2002 reminds me of the guy in the old Miller Lite "less filling/tastes better" commercials who "feels very strongly both ways". Being annoyed by people just because they actually express real opinions on a message board is annoying to me.

Dude,

Notice I didn't say you couldn't have your opinions. I just suggested that you guys keep it in the applicable thread.

And yes, I'm well aware that you don't think I have strong enough opinions. I apologize that you find it so off-putting.

[Marquette84]

I apologize and I really disagree. I honestly didn't think you really believed that as a player moved down the ladder to play with and against weaker competition his numbers would suffer. Can we therefore assume that your stance would be that, say, Michael Jordan would have been nearly invisible in the NBDL? Or that a starter on the 8th grade team would see his numbers dip if he moved down to the 7th grade team? This goes counter to everything I've seen and experienced in 50+ years of playing and watching sports. I'd be interested in actual examples of this proving true if you can provide them.

Why don't we just go all the way and put Jordan on that 7th grade team.

In that case I still say yes, I think his assist numbers would go down.  I cannot see how his 7th grade teammate would finish shots as well as, say, Scottie Pippen.  And since you need your receiver to make the basket to get credit for an assist, I would say that at the 7th grade level, chances for assists will be few and far between.

I'll grant you, however, that his scoring would probably go up.

[Silky]

Agenda alert for 84 once again. 

Let's compare Lombardi's Packers to Belicheats Patriots. 

Different times, schedules, rules, injuries, timing of schedules and on and on to make a black and white comparison.  Can you look at it? I guess.  But to expect this class to do as well as that class is absurd and reeks of someone who has an ax to grind.  You really are one different cat with your obsession 84.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agenda alert for 84 once again. 

Let's compare Lombardi's Packers to Belicheats Patriots. 

Different times, schedules, rules, injuries, timing of schedules and on and on to make a black and white comparison.  Can you look at it? I guess.  But to expect this class to do as well as that class is absurd and reeks of someone who has an ax to grind.  You really are one different cat with your obsession 84.

And we could say the same thing about you Silky.  It's a good thing no on one Lombardi's Packers ever cheated or violated NFL rules, too...cough...cough. 

[TJ]

Agenda alert for 84 once again. 

Let's compare Lombardi's Packers to Belicheats Patriots. 

Different times, schedules, rules, injuries, timing of schedules and on and on to make a black and white comparison.  Can you look at it? I guess.  But to expect this class to do as well as that class is absurd and reeks of someone who has an ax to grind.  You really are one different cat with your obsession 84.

This is hyperbole to the extreme.  Wouldn't you say that a comparison between two different NFL franchises that are separated by 50 years is a little bit less accurate than one between two NCAA teams separated by 4 years?

It doesn't matter if you think it's an apples to apples comparison or not.  Certainly everyone should be able to admit that both seasons had some big pre-season similarities:
1) big roster turnover, with 1 major contributor and a few role players returning
2) 3 starting positions open for new players from day 1
3) low expectations, or at best uncertain but hopeful

There are certainly differences as well.  But to say that they are in no way comparable is disingenuous.  Expecting the same results for 2010 as 2006 is unfair as well because the 2006 team achieved about as much as they possibly could have.  I know I am hoping for this team to similarly maximize their talents and achieve similar results, but I'm certainly not expecting it.

[Marquette84]

Agenda alert for 84 once again. 

Let's compare Lombardi's Packers to Belicheats Patriots. 

I think if you had read Lenny's previous post, you'd understand the comparison.

Different times, schedules, rules, injuries, timing of schedules and on and on to make a black and white comparison. 

Really? 

Then I guess you cannot reasonably conclude that Al McGuire was a better coach than Bob Dukiet.  After all, you say that "different times, schedules, rules, injuries, timing of schedules and on and on" make a black-and-white comparison impossible.

I have no problem calling Al a better coach, even though they coached different players in different eras.

But to expect this class to do as well as that class is absurd and reeks of someone who has an ax to grind.  You really are one different cat with your obsession 84.

I have *not* said this year should do as well as 2006.  I am being criticized for stating an expectation (.500/8th place) that is already well behind where the 2006 team finished (10-6/4th place). 

Apparently, I have not lowered expectations sufficiently to satisfy those who think that I have an "agenda" or an "ax to grind." 

The irony is that the same people who chide me for setting expectations too high will turn around and argue that Buzz has already proven to be a better coach and better recruiter--even though they themselves admit that the team is unlikely to equal or surpass the performance of Crean-recruited and -coached teams over the past several years.

[LON]

The important thing in all of this bantering is,

whose dad can beat up whose?