Big Name Teams to take a Fall in 09-10

[DJO's Pump Fake]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-fallers071009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Cameos by MU, Lazar and Kevin O'Neill

[TomW1365]

Who will get Lazar the ball?!?  How about Robert Frozena?

[TallTitan34]

I'm pretty happy to see Pittsburgh and Louisville on that list!

[ZiggysFryBoy]

I guess it's good that we are "big name."  got to be big name to fall.

[TomW1365]

I guess it's good that we are "big name."  got to be big name to fall.

I couldn't agree more... Even after our final four run, we weren't considered to be one of the big names.  We've come along way in the past ten years.  To be a "big name" means people have high expectations on a year in and year out basis.  I think we will surprise some teams this year. 

[HoopsMalone]

It is great to be considered a big name team.  We have come to a point where we expect to make the tourney and the NIT is a disaster of a year.  People were calling for Crean's head when he made the NIT those two years which is a good sign for the team's expectations. 

I woud say MU's general expectations are:

Conference season
Bottom half- horrible season
top half- satisfactory
top 4- great season
Champs- incredible season

Post-season
No tourney- absolute disaster of a season.
NIT- terrible, but hopefully the team was rebuilding
In tourney- satisfactory
Sweet 16- great season
Elite 8- even better
Final Four- Incredible season
NCAA Champs- Hope I see it once in my life!

[dsfire]

Are you saying those are general expectations or for next year specifically?

[🏀]

It is great to be considered a big name team.  We have come to a point where we expect to make the tourney and the NIT is a disaster of a year.  People were calling for Crean's head when he made the NIT those two years which is a good sign for the team's expectations. 

I woud say MU's general expectations are:

Conference season
Bottom half- horrible season
top half- satisfactory
top 4- great season
Champs- incredible season

Post-season
No tourney- absolute disaster of a season.
NIT- terrible, but hopefully the team was rebuilding
In tourney- satisfactory
Sweet 16- great season
Elite 8- even better
Final Four- Incredible season
NCAA Champs- Hope I see it once in my life!

I think you better be preparing yourself for a terrible season.

[HoopsMalone]

Are you saying those are general expectations or for next year specifically?

Kind of like an average of expectations for all years.  Obviously, if we recruit LeBron or something that particular year would higher.  But year in and year out, that is how I think an average MU fan would look at the season.  A coach is not on the hotseat unless we don't make the tourney and finish in the bottom half of the conference.

[MU B2002]

  Obviously, if we recruit LeBron or something...

I didn't even hear that he was opening up his recruitment, good thing we have the schollie open for 09-10!!!

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Labeling an NIT season "terrible" is not quite right. This season, we may start slow and eliminate ourselves from NCAA at large consideration by mid-season. If that were to be the case and we rallied for an NIT birth and won a couple games in the NIT, it would hardly be considered "terrible."

Our previous NIT's were terrible because A) they were in consecutive years after the Final Four; B) they were years 6 and 7 of the previous regime and C) that rout in the Bradley Center to Western Michigan was absolutely putrid.

If Buzz is making back-to-back NIT appearances in years 6 and 7, it would be terrible. This year, not so much.

[thanooj]

I think you better be preparing yourself for a terrible season.

Steve Novak's senior year I was praying to just make it respectable against uconn on National TV in our first ever big east game.  Little was known going into that year about James, McNeal, and Matthews.  With alot of youth and a very good senior this team could be alright.

Lazar, Cubillan are comprable to Novak, Chapman.  Butler may be better than Amaroso and otule worse than barro.  The  other bigs more than equal Grimm and Kinsella even without seeing them play. An unproven Fulce has more potential and a whole big east season under his belt to put him above lott imo. Two juco guards (DJO and Buyks) seem to be as good if not better than the sophomore transfer Danny Fitzgerald.  Junior, maymon and williams may not be the three amigos, but the potential is there.  

I think if we gel, ncaa is not setting the bar to high.

5th place conference and ncaa bid would be a good season.  nit appearance and 6-9th Big East would be satisfactory to a disappointment.  

I am optimisticly looking forward to a very good season.  

[rocky_warrior]

Junior, maymon and williams may not be the three amigos, but the potential is there.  

Too bad Junior's not even on Campus yet.  Too much missed time and he might be the most disappointing player this year - through no fault of his own.

[Brewtown Andy]

Too bad Junior's not even on Campus yet.  Too much missed time and he might be the most disappointing player this year - through no fault of his own.

I really don't think not being in summer school is THAT big of a problem.  Buzz can still talk to him all the time and make sure he's staying in shape, blah blah.  And they still have to go the first 8 weeks of the school year before practicing as a team.

[Chili]

Lazar, Cubillan are comprable to Novak, Chapman.

No freaking way. Steve Novak was one of the best shooters EVER in college basketball. EVER. And Chapman was much better all around than Cubes.

[AZWarrior]

No freaking way. Steve Novak was one of the best shooters EVER in college basketball. EVER. And Chapman was much better all around than Cubes.

Not sure I agree.  I will grant you that Novak is clearly a better outside shooter than Lazar.  But Lazar is a clearly better rebounder.  Maybe a better "close in" scorer as well - I don't feel supremely confident in that claim, but I suspect its true (comments anyone?).  So net, I think Lazar and Novak are close enough to justify the "comparable" rating.

I think Chapman was superior to Cubes, BTW.  I would not equate them.

[79Warrior]

I really don't think not being in summer school is THAT big of a problem.  Buzz can still talk to him all the time and make sure he's staying in shape, blah blah.  And they still have to go the first 8 weeks of the school year before practicing as a team.

disagree. He is not getting an oppportunity to work with and meet his teamates. It is not about talking to buzz, it's about being around his peers.

[rocky_warrior]

it's about being around his peers.

And hitting the weight room, and playing pickup games against NBA players, and getting familiar with how his teammates like him to get them the ball (and vice-versa, them getting used to his distribution of the ball). 

Sure there are no "official" practices, but a LOT happens during these summer months, especially for "new" guys.

[Lennys Tap]

No freaking way. Steve Novak was one of the best shooters EVER in college basketball. EVER. And Chapman was much better all around than Cubes.

+1

[4thAndState]

+1

I think comparing Lazar to Novak is a bit of an apple-orange thing. Different players, similar average points. Where Novak was the premier 3-pt. shooter, LH has a more all-around game, plus he's a better rebounder. I'd say overall they are pretty close to the same "value" to their respective teams (2005-06 vs. 2009-10). I also think the better comparsion is with Butler to Chapman. On that one, JB has the advantage.

[thanooj]

I think comparing Lazar to Novak is a bit of an apple-orange thing. Different players, similar average points. Where Novak was the premier 3-pt. shooter, LH has a more all-around game, plus he's a better rebounder. I'd say overall they are pretty close to the same "value" to their respective teams (2005-06 vs. 2009-10). I also think the better comparsion is with Butler to Chapman. On that one, JB has the advantage.

I agree.  If Lazar and Novak are apples to oranges as a player but have the same "value" to their team and we take butler over chapman (again apples to oranges) than this team has the same potential as the three amigos freshmen year.  I know that all of these newcomers are unproven commodities, but so were the three amigos back then.  I don't think we should expect a terrible fall.  We won't have the three four year starters of last year, but I think we can expect a season that keeps with MU's success over the last four years.  A respectable finish in top half of the Big East and an NCAA bid with this young team is where the bar is set.  We will lose some stupid games, but let's hope it is early and that there is a big learning curve for the players and the coach.

And yes steve novak was the best shooter I ever saw. 

[Chili]

I think comparing Lazar to Novak is a bit of an apple-orange thing. Different players, similar average points. Where Novak was the premier 3-pt. shooter, LH has a more all-around game, plus he's a better rebounder. I'd say overall they are pretty close to the same "value" to their respective teams (2005-06 vs. 2009-10). I also think the better comparsion is with Butler to Chapman. On that one, JB has the advantage.

I just look at how Steve Novak made James such a great PG by giving him the outlet to do dish to him for a 3pt'er every time. Steve could stretch a defense like no other. Lazar cannot. I just think to what it would have been like to have a shooter like Steve last year on this team and they would have been deadly.

[Lennys Tap]

Opponents whole game plans revolved around Novak. Someone had to be up in his face from 35' on in. This opened up the court for James, McNeal etc. Those too arrogant or lazy (Connecticut for example) to pay special attention to Steve paid the price. Lazar is a wonderful player but doesn't open up the court for the rest of the team like Novak did. Just comparing their numbers doesn't come close to telling the real story.

[Hards Alumni]

The thing about the reasoning in the last two posts is the assumption that Lazar isn't a great shooter.  In fact, he has played out of position his entire career at Marquette and was recruited for his shooting ability.

He hasn't been given the opportunity to be the go to shooter or inside out guy that Novak was.

Is he Novak? No.  But he is much more athletic, and is really a pretty good shooter.

[Chili]

The thing about the reasoning in the last two posts is the assumption that Lazar isn't a great shooter.  In fact, he has played out of position his entire career at Marquette and was recruited for his shooting ability.

He hasn't been given the opportunity to be the go to shooter or inside out guy that Novak was.

Is he Novak? No.  But he is much more athletic, and is really a pretty good shooter.

He is a game changer. Steve is a game changer.

[Ari Gold]

I'm in your corner here thanooj. until I get to sit down and watch the team get tested by some good non-conference opponents I'm going to remain optimistic and think that the NCAA tournament is an achievable goal. though I don't think Cubbie and Lazar are the new Chapman and Novak, though Novak and Lazar both are extremely valuable to the team. Butler is a better comparison to chapman though.

Remember in 05-06 when we lost to Winthrop and Nebraska early on? an early conference loss to Cinic wasn't great either. But we still rallied and played great ball for the rest of the season and made it to the NCAA. I think there is a lot of potential to see a similar situation this coming year, lets note the article. Pitt and UL are down as well and how much improvement have some of those bottom dwellers in the BE really made? I think we'll see some early struggles and losses that we shouldn't have but and otherwise impressive season for the team we have that puts us around the 20 win mark.

[HoopsMalone]

Labeling an NIT season "terrible" is not quite right. This season, we may start slow and eliminate ourselves from NCAA at large consideration by mid-season. If that were to be the case and we rallied for an NIT birth and won a couple games in the NIT, it would hardly be considered "terrible."

Our previous NIT's were terrible because A) they were in consecutive years after the Final Four; B) they were years 6 and 7 of the previous regime and C) that rout in the Bradley Center to Western Michigan was absolutely putrid.

If Buzz is making back-to-back NIT appearances in years 6 and 7, it would be terrible. This year, not so much.

I guess since I have only been a Marquette fan since this decade, I do not have the perspective that others might have who have been rooting for Marquette in the years b/w Al leaving and Wade arriving, but I would still consider NIT a big disappointment. 

If we start slow and then start playing better, make the NIT, and win a few games there I would not really consider it a great season still.  If that happens this year and someone asks me about the 2010 season I would say "It was a down year, but we showed signs at the end."  The general tone would be negative. 

Making the NIT, in my opinion, means that we would not have lived up to our potential in luring quality players to MU and the players did not execute.  You do make a good point that this is Buzz's second year and it's harder to make a case about recruits with a big gap in recruiting he is getting.  Buzz will not be on the hotseat for making the NIT, but I am thinking the average MU fan will be dissapointed with the NIT no matter the context.  I think it's good to expect a lot out of the program though because men's bball does a lot to promote name recognition of our school.

[Daniel]

The tough part at this time is we have no idea what this team can or will do.  I'm optimistic for sure - but we have no idea.  Will Mbao play?  Will Junior start and be good after missing the summer?  Will Lazar be a true leader and help develop the younger players?  Will Jimmy Butler be vastly improved, and "unleashed?" 

If we work our way into the rankings this year, and get an NCAA bid, I'd be happy.  Of course, I always hope for a miracle

[GOMU1104]

The tough part at this time is we have no idea what this team can or will do.  I'm optimistic for sure - but we have no idea.  Will Mbao play?  Will Junior start and be good after missing the summer?  Will Lazar be a true leader and help develop the younger players?  Will Jimmy Butler be vastly improved, and "unleashed?" 

If we work our way into the rankings this year, and get an NCAA bid, I'd be happy.  Of course, I always hope for a miracle

Which is why I have no expectations for next year...there are just too many unknowns.

I wouldnt expect to get anything out of Mbao. Anyone thinking any differently is just asking to be frustrated...like with COT last year.