[GoMarquette.com] MU Concludes 2008-09 Ranked 10th In Attendance

[The Lens]

The Bucks? They'll be gone in four years or less. Who cares about them. MU will be the only show in town!

Where they going Niv?  Tel Aviv?  There aren't a whole lot of towns in America dying for a mediorce NBA franchise.  Maybe Kansas City?  And would that market be an improvement?  Maybe Seattle?  Think they'll pony up now for a arena?  The fact is Milwaukee, while currently not a great NBA market, is better than damn near every market without a NBA team.  Also I never heard of people saying Milwaukee was done in 2001.  Back then MU was the boring game and the Bucks were the hottest ticket in town.  As soon as the product on the floor improves, attendance and the fan experience will vastly improve...see the Milwaukee Brewers who are averaging 1,900 more people this year than they did last year (must be the good economy).  This town really supports a winner.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The Brewers are averaging more fans this year because the Cubs have already been in town. It'll average itself out.

[The Lens]

The Brewers are averaging more fans this year because the Cubs have already been in town. It'll average itself out.

They had 35,000 yesterday for a Noon game against the Marlins.  This isn't 2004, Brewers fans are holding their own.

[rocky_warrior]

As far as "outrage", I feel like a lot of the criticism was somewhat pointed at the old MU head coach

Well, I think yes and no.  There has been a lot of discussion about seats sold vs. seats filled.  However, without clicking the nice links you provided, most "outrage" seemed to occur when the previous coach tried to announce each consecutive game** as a new record for an NCAA game in the state of wisconsin...usually with about 10 more people in the building than the previous.

** - I know it wasn't consecutive games, but there was an amazing string of "record attendance" games. See 2007 & 2008

[mu_hilltopper]

Once again we get the thread about "6000" no-shows for cupcakes and people bent out of shape about our reporting process.

I'd like to compare our attendance to that of Wisconsin--#6 on the attendance list.

They reported a full house for every game--averaged a capacity crowd of 17,230 for the season.  That means they reported sellouts for the likes of SIU Edwardsville, Idaho State and Coppin State. It didn't matter whether it was a November early-season game, or a Christmas Break game--if it was played in Madison, it was a sellout.

BTW, same thing with Louisville--#5 on the list, with 19K+ attendance--even for their cupcake games. For example, they drew 19,493 for Morehead State (about 100 over their season average of 19,397).  Similar attendance for teams like South Alabama, Lamar and Ohio.

This means one of two things:

a) Wisconsin and UL fans are significantly more loyal, showing up even to the cupcakes on the schedule.
b) They also had no-shows for their cupcakes and report attendance (as we do) based on tickets sold.

Since I'm the only one in this thread who has written anything about 6000 no-shows/cupcakes, I assume this comment is directed at me.   

I'm not bent out of shape in the least.  You get more bent out of shape than anyone over this subject.

MU does what MU does, and indeed, perhaps every other ticket selling organization.

That does not change the fact that the word "attendance" means "attendance," and reporting 13,000 when 6,000 are in attendance is, by Webster's definition, inarguably incorrect.


Slightly off subject ..

Curious .. anyone know if venues like the BC use attendance figures to set advertising rates (like readers :: periodicals) for the various ads that show up surrounding the BC?   I wonder what they use?  I mean, if you were an advertiser, and the BC said 1,000,000 people/year will attend BC events, seeing your ad, but really only 900,000 people come through the doors .. wouldn't they be overcharging? -- Perhaps advertisers really use the "actual attendance" figures, which are surely kept.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, I think yes and no.  There has been a lot of discussion about seats sold vs. seats filled.  However, without clicking the nice links you provided, most "outrage" seemed to occur when the previous coach tried to announce each consecutive game** as a new record for an NCAA game in the state of wisconsin...usually with about 10 more people in the building than the previous.

** - I know it wasn't consecutive games, but there was an amazing string of "record attendance" games. See 2007 & 2008

Agree, and I think that stuff is somewhat "fishy" as well.

I'm not trying to re-hash old debates, but it is interesting to see how people perceive certain things (like attendance) now that Buzz is the coach.

It's actually better, because for the most part it shows that people like Buzz.

[The Lens]

Agree, and I think that stuff is somewhat "fishy" as well.

I'm not trying to re-hash old debates, but it is interesting to see how people perceive certain things (like attendance) now that Buzz is the coach.

It's actually better, because for the most part it shows that people like Buzz.

Probably b/c we stopped making claims about the largest crowd ever to watch a game in the state of Wisconsin.  Those claims started and ended with the TC admin.  Those issues right or wrong were important to our former coach.

[GGGG]

so now lets build our own complex and stop paying to use the BC.

Unless someone steps up to provide the entire thing, I really doubt that will ever happen.  I think it would be kind of a waste with the McGuire Center already in place.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Probably b/c we stopped making claims about the largest crowd ever to watch a game in the state of Wisconsin.  Those claims started and ended with the TC admin.  Those issues right or wrong were important to our former coach.

Quite possible, I can't deny that.

The next question is:

IF Buzz has "the largest attendance in MU history" announced at a game, or mentioned in the article in the future... who is "to blame" for that?

Previously it was the head coach. With Buzz, I don't feel like people will blame him for stuff like that.

[The Lens]

Quite possible, I can't deny that.

The next question is:

IF Buzz has "the largest attendance in MU history" announced at a game, or mentioned in the article in the future... who is "to blame" for that?

Previously it was the head coach. With Buzz, I don't feel like people will blame him for stuff like that.

If Buzz does it, I'll call him on it too.  It's contrived and cheesy.  Buzz doesn't walk on water with me, I have no problem criticizing him.  The lack of open-mindedness about TC is one of the things that drove me crazy.  I almost hated the game more than the player. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I was there right after AllStar weekend and everyone was saying NEVER AGAIN. Waitresses at NY NY left the restaurant after people repeatedly left without paying and took tips off other tables as they left. Cabbies went home after constantly being stiffed.
Still a bad taste in their mouths even today

Yup, it was not a good scene on many many fronts. 

[reinko]

Yup, it was not a good scene on many many fronts. 

I read about more than a couple of deaths that were strategically not mentioned on the news until the NBA left town.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If Buzz does it, I'll call him on it too.  It's contrived and cheesy.  Buzz doesn't walk on water with me, I have no problem criticizing him.  The lack of open-mindedness about TC is one of the things that drove me crazy.  I almost hated the game more than the player. 

Fair enough.

I think head coaches often get too much credit and too much blame anyways... and attendance #'s and "marketing" probably fall in that category.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU inflates their "attendance number" to the # of tickets sold.  There's no "claiming" about it, they do it.

I wouldn't use the term "inflated"....but you are correct that it is tickets sold &/or distributed that MU announces.   Many other schools do the same thing.  Simply put, if the ticket is sold and every ticket is sold, that would mean no tickets are left to be sold = SOLD OUT.   A game could be sold out and 10% don't both to show up, but that's not MU's fault....there were no more tickets to sell as all inventory was gone.


Some schools count turnstyle counts.   Most of the schools I dealt with in the conference used the method MU uses.

[Marquette84]

Since I'm the only one in this thread who has written anything about 6000 no-shows/cupcakes, I assume this comment is directed at me.   

I'm not bent out of shape in the least.  You get more bent out of shape than anyone over this subject.

MU does what MU does, and indeed, perhaps every other ticket selling organization.

That does not change the fact that the word "attendance" means "attendance," and reporting 13,000 when 6,000 are in attendance is, by Webster's definition, inarguably incorrect.

Wasn't directed at you personally--frankly I didn't even look at who posted it.  Sorry to have made you feel that way.

For the fact of the matter, I'm not bent out of shape either.  Then again, I'm not the one pulling out the dictionary.  

I recall a game in the early '80's in the middle of a raging snowstorm--Xavier if I recall correctly. Despite an arena that was quite obviously less than half-filled, the announcer boomed that attenance was "Eleven Thousand Fifty Two . . . a Sellout".  Webster be damned.

I think the real issue here is why MU seems to be more prone to having such a huge numbers of no-shows to particular games.  I understand if there is a raging snowstorm in the case above.  But on ordinary nights in ordinary weather, we'll see thousands who hold tickets simply not show. 

Other teams like UW and UL not only sell tickets to their cupcakes, but they actually get their fans in seats as well. 

I'm really more curious as to why is this continues to be a bigger problem for MU.

And I don't buy the "crappy game" theory.  SIU-Edwardsville sold out the Kohl Center, and didn't generate 6K worth of no-shows. 

[mu_hilltopper]

Good points.  I dunno about UW .. but I'll tell you why UL gets people to go to crappy games:

They're so expensive, you'd be stupid not to use 'em.

Here's the required donation schedule for UL:
http://louisville.edu/athletics/development/seating-mbb.htm

Priority Level
2007-08 CAF Annual Donation
Priority I:  (These seats are all the courtside and corner sections.  Basically about 70% of the lower bowl.)
4 seats: $1600 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $150,000 payable over 5 years
2 seats: $1600 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $100,000 payable over 5 years

Priority II - Upper deck, but center court
$900 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $25,000 payable over 5 years

Priority III - lower bowl end zone
$500 per seat + ticket cost

Priority IV - upper ends & corners
$150 per seat + ticket cost

I mean WOW!  Those lowers are unbelievably expensive.  $20k per year donation, plus $1600/seat, plus the ticket?  Holy jesus.    Now, sure, after 5 years, you're done with the $20k/year donation.  Fine, stretch out your $100k donation over 20 years.  Still $5k/year, plus tickets!

I'm surprised the PIII seats are "only" $500/year plus ticket cost. 

So, if I've got this right, .. for most lowers, let's say totaled up over 10 years, it's $100k + (1600 + ($30 (?) * 22 gpy )*10years = $123,000 div by 220 games = $560 bucks a game per seat!   (The math gets somewhat better over 20 years = $330/game.)

You don't use your 2 UL tickets, you're blowing over a grand.   

You don't use your 2 MU tickets, you're blowing a paltry $60.

[StillAWarrior]

Priority Level
2007-08 CAF Annual Donation
Priority I:  (These seats are all the courtside and corner sections.  Basically about 70% of the lower bowl.)
4 seats: $1600 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $150,000 payable over 5 years

Hilltopper -

I'm not a STH, so this is just curiousity, but if you paid this to Marquette how many points would you have?  What section would this put you in?  (Assume all your other point factors (e.g., degrees, number of years as STH, etc) are the same)

[radome]

Good points.  I dunno about UW .. but I'll tell you why UL gets people to go to crappy games:

They're so expensive, you'd be stupid not to use 'em.


You don't use your 2 UL tickets, you're blowing over a grand.  

You don't use your 2 MU tickets, you're blowing a paltry $60.

So that's why we aren't higher in attendance, we don't charge enough.

[mu_hilltopper]

Hilltopper -

I'm not a STH, so this is just curiousity, but if you paid this to Marquette how many points would you have?  What section would this put you in?  (Assume all your other point factors (e.g., degrees, number of years as STH, etc) are the same)

Well .. $100,000 / 100 = 1,000 points.  $1,600 per seat per year = another 16 points.  So, over 5 years, 1,080 points.  (although the points depreciate from 1:100 to 1:250.

At MU, the highest 25 accounts have 1,049 points .. so .. with 1,080 points, you'd be picking the best seats, period.

If you made the donation in a non-reseating year, well, you'd be down to 320 points, which would still put you in the top 125 accounts, so you'd be sitting pretty much anywhere in the first 1-4 rows around the court.

[Brewtown Andy]

Good points.  I dunno about UW .. but I'll tell you why UL gets people to go to crappy games:

They're so expensive, you'd be stupid not to use 'em.

Here's the required donation schedule for UL:
http://louisville.edu/athletics/development/seating-mbb.htm

Priority Level
2007-08 CAF Annual Donation
Priority I:  (These seats are all the courtside and corner sections.  Basically about 70% of the lower bowl.)
4 seats: $1600 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $150,000 payable over 5 years
2 seats: $1600 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $100,000 payable over 5 years

Priority II - Upper deck, but center court
$900 per seat + ticket cost + minimum gift of $25,000 payable over 5 years

Priority III - lower bowl end zone
$500 per seat + ticket cost

Priority IV - upper ends & corners
$150 per seat + ticket cost

All this for a seat in a glorified horse barn. 

This goes a long way to explain why UL fans travel so well.  Paying 2x face value + travel expenses to Milwaukee is still cheaper than that.

[Muhoops85]

We currently sit in the priority seats (first few rows of lower bowl).  Our seats are $5K ($2500 each), plus the ticket price.  Over 5 years, that's still $30K including the tickets.  Many people choose these seats to build up points, then move to other lower bowl seats when they have accumulated enough points.  I guess it's a bargain as compared to UL!

I do believe the limited competition for your sports dollar in the Madison & Louisville market helps get fans in the arena once their bank accounts have been sufficiently drained.

[GOMU1104]

Couple of points...

-Damn near every team in sports (both collegiate and professional) uses "Paid Attendance" for the attendance figures they release to the public.  Honestly, I would bet that 100% of the teams do this...


-No matter how bad they may be, the Bucks leaving Milwaukee would be bad for the city. You NEVER want a pro franchise to leave town.


-Kansas City is a likely destination for the next franchise relocation (NBA or NHL), as they have a brand new arena with no tenants...

[boyonthedock]

first of all, I worked as the guy who passes stuff out at games at the bradley center. both the tickeet scanner do-hickeys and the turnstile numbers are taken down after every game, so the team does know how many tickets were actually used.

Secondly, the bradley center is the worst arena in the NBA at generating luxury box revenue. combined with low attendence in recent years, and the relatively small market with an underperforming team which has lowered fan interest, Milwaukee is one of the prime franchises to be relocated in the NBA. That, and the perceived unwillingness to get a new arena, a la seattle, and Sentaor Kohl's advanced age have led to rumors of a sale and eventual relocation

[The Lens]

Secondly, the bradley center is the worst arena in the NBA at generating luxury box revenue. combined with low attendence in recent years, and the relatively small market with an underperforming team which has lowered fan interest, Milwaukee is one of the prime franchises to be relocated in the NBA. That, and the perceived unwillingness to get a new arena, a la seattle, and Sentaor Kohl's advanced age have led to rumors of a sale and eventual relocation

That's all very well and good, and even true, but where are they going to go?  From what I can tell the worst NBA cities are still all better than the best non-NBA cities.

[Marquette84]

Well .. $100,000 / 100 = 1,000 points.  $1,600 per seat per year = another 16 points.  So, over 5 years, 1,080 points.  (although the points depreciate from 1:100 to 1:250.

At MU, the highest 25 accounts have 1,049 points .. so .. with 1,080 points, you'd be picking the best seats, period.

If you made the donation in a non-reseating year, well, you'd be down to 320 points, which would still put you in the top 125 accounts, so you'd be sitting pretty much anywhere in the first 1-4 rows around the court.

Just curious--if you start with no points but make the $2500/seat donation can you get seats in the first 4 rows immediately? 

And if you already have 320 points do you still have to make the $2500/seat donation every year to renew your seats in the first 4 rows?