"Academic Standards"

[Wareagle]

As a graduate of both UW and MU, Badger Nation's all too familiar "superior academic standards" argument is flatout ridiculous. 

There is a standard path for UW athletes at the school to guarantee they stay eligible and minimize their studying time.  Ask any student there about "rocks for jocks" or "clap for credit" and they will be able to give you the course numbers for a class where you can get a C just by showing up. 

Clap for credit met for 55 minutes on a Friday.  When you walked in, you got a scantron sheet and a different sheet with 5 questions on it.  The professor would then proceed to talk for 3 minutes about the music you were going to hear, and in the process answer all the 5 questions on the sheet.  You'd fill out the sheet, the music would play, it would end after 50 minutes, and you would clap and turn in the sheet at the end.  Therefore, if you were present at the class, you would get a one credit A for being attentive for 3 minutes a week, once a week.  Then, you could sleep for the rest of the class, which the 40 football players enrolled in the class did.  You could also take this class 3 times.  You can bet every football player took it 3 times.

When I was there, all the athletes, and I mean ALL the athletes, from football players to softball players, took Portuguese.  Why, you ask?  Because it was the only intro foreign language class that met 4 times a week instead of 5.  My girlfriend was in it and the players enrolled in the "money" sports studied from old exams which were not given to any other students.

Do these classes exist at MU?  Who knows.  But the Badgernation posters are the ones who need to stop kidding themselves and realize that UW's "academic standards" do not carryover to athletes.

[MU_Iceman]

GREAT post!

I always hated hearing about classes that friends were taking at some of the big State schools...weight lifting...bowling...BS!

Don't get me wrong I was in classes with some MU b-ball players and those classes always ended up being among the easiest on my schedule, but they were still legitimate classes (philosophy, theology, statistics, marketing, etc).  I know that the players were given study guides by tudors who had a very good idea of what was going to be on the tests, but our boys still had to learn (or memorize) real course material in most cases...

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Iceman-

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14767.msg135802#msg135802

Here's the response I just typed up on your comments on the main Vander Blue thread.  I have a link to the NCAA qualfiying standards on here if you're curious how they work.

Also, I'll give you one gimme class at MU:  History of Jazz.  All the basketball players take it at one point or another, but it's also one of the first classes to fill up because every student needs a fine arts credit while at Marquette now.

[77ncaachamps]

Iceman-

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14767.msg135802#msg135802

Here's the response I just typed up on your comments on the main Vander Blue thread.  I have a link to the NCAA qualfiying standards on here if you're curious how they work.

Also, I'll give you one gimme class at MU:  History of Jazz.  All the basketball players take it at one point or another, but it's also one of the first classes to fill up because every student needs a fine arts credit while at Marquette now.

I can attest to that class, as well as the recycled papers that made their way into Johnston Hall.

It's a fun class for writing research papers, but the actual seat time is more of a feat of labor.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Every Badger alumnus needs to watch one episode of CollegeLife on MTV and then come to the Marquette message boards and tell us about their high academic standards.

Judging from 80% of the people I knew who went there, the most high thing at UW-Madison weren't the academic standards.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

Every Badger alumnus needs to watch one episode of CollegeLife on MTV and then come to the Marquette message boards and tell us about their high academic standards.

Judging from 80% of the people I knew who went there, the most high thing at UW-Madison weren't the academic standards.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000

I nominate this for MUScoop Post of the Year.

[DegenerateDish]

If Wisconsin wants to be the "Harvard" of the state, that's fine by me. If it in turn means Vander Blue winds up at MU (qualified and meets the standards), then I'm all for it. They can keep their Ivy League requirements, I'll enjoy watching Vander Blue and MU beat down the Badgers and their rocket scientists.

[Mayor McCheese]

If Wisconsin wants to be the "Harvard" of the state, that's fine by me. If it in turn means Vander Blue winds up at MU (qualified and meets the standards), then I'm all for it. They can keep their Ivy League requirements, I'll enjoy watching Vander Blue and MU beat down the Badgers and their rocket scientists.

rocket scientists?  They all want to follow Mike Wilkinson and become full-time farmers.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I'm sure all this talk about Marquette's academic standards will cease when the team contains 5 or more junior college transfers.

[sailwi]

What I find the most ironic in all the threads on the Badger board is BB Fran espousing about the UW academic standards, this coming from a person who graduated from UWM.  Of course every person who graduated from a UW dash school seems to think they graduated form UW-Madison.

Having done a lot of campus recruiting most employers look at the program (accounting, etc) and not the institiution as a whole, so this whole institution superiority doesn't translate to the real world.  I was accepted to Michigan but went to MU so according to most of the badger pundits I am inferior to them intellectually yet most objective 3rd parties would rate UM superior to UW acadmeically.  The whole academic superiority really is old and tired but whatever works I guess.

[Blackhat]

junior college player= the devil


mom and kid walking down Wells:

"look mommy it's jimmy butler a JUCO transfer"  

"Run Johnny, Run!!!!!"

[esotericmindguy]

rocket scientists?  They all want to follow Mike Wilkinson and become full-time farmers.

Strange post, are you suggesting farmers aren't smart?

[MUfan12]

No, he's saying people who write about farmers aren't smart. 

(Wilkinson majored in Agricultural Journalism)

[avid1010]

I think it's safe to say UW and MU are both wonderful schools that also happen to toss out some easy credits for  athletes.  I've taken courses from more schools than I care to admit, and at every school I've seen this happen.  Then again, if you think grades or GPA's are valid and/or reliable you're nuts.  I'm always a bit surprised there aren't more kids not qualifying who decide to get a lawyer and go to town. 

[HoopsMalone]

UW-Madison only really carries weight inside of the state, and rightfully so.  In Chicago, no one is impressed by UW-Madison.  When I was applying for law schools, Madison was one of the schools people specifically told me not to go to because people know that it is easy. 

[MilWarrior]

Also, I'll give you one gimme class at MU:  History of Jazz.  All the basketball players take it at one point or another, but it's also one of the first classes to fill up because every student needs a fine arts credit while at Marquette now.
[/quote]

History of Jazz = Awesome. Slept through the final and still got a B. So pretty much a joke of a class. But as a roommate of a UW transfer, I can guarantee you that weightlifting is just as much of a joke. I found it hard to discover any joke classes at MU while I was there. (Tried pretty hard) Simply put, they are few and far between. The only difference between UW and MU is that UW has more students and thus more competition to enter into the respective colleges. And Marquette girls are uglier. (I dare you to refute that one.)

[Lighthouse 84]

Also, I'll give you one gimme class at MU: 

Back in the day, there was a class at MU everyone called "Basketball Physics".  It was at the Varsity Theater and as I remember, all the basketball players took it.  Attendance wasn't taken and for the mid term and final,
 you were allowed to bring in a half sheet of paper with as much tiny writing on it as you could fit and use it during the multiple choice exam.

Marquette girls are uglier. (I dare you to refute that one.)

Again, back in the day, as a whole that was true.  But UW has so many more to choose from.  And exceptions were certainly there....like my wife...

[Marquette84]

Also, I'll give you one gimme class at MU:  History of Jazz.  All the basketball players take it at one point or another, but it's also one of the first classes to fill up because every student needs a fine arts credit while at Marquette now.

Rick Majerus--as a Raymond's assistant-- used to teach a class called something like "the Philosophy of Coaching."

[Mayor McCheese]

Strange post, are you suggesting farmers aren't smart?

I'm suggesting they're not rocket scientists.



And I resent whoevers comment it was that anybody that went to a UW dash school acts like they went to Madison.  I went to one of those UW dash schools, and theres not a chance in hell I would say I went to Madison.

[GGGG]

Both UW and MU admit athletes that wouldn't get into the schools otherwise.  Both UW and MU have easier majors that athletes gravitate towards.  I think it is silly from people on either side to claim some superiority in both regards.

[Avenue Commons]

UW-Madison only really carries weight inside of the state, and rightfully so.  In Chicago, no one is impressed by UW-Madison.  When I was applying for law schools, Madison was one of the schools people specifically told me not to go to because people know that it is easy. 

True. Northwestern is held in very high regard locally for the obvious reasons. But with the possible exception of Michigan, the Big 10 schools in Chicago are considered "6 of one, a half dozen of another." Which isn't to say they aren't respected, just that no one (outside of Big 10 alumns) really care.

[Avenue Commons]

Both UW and MU admit athletes that wouldn't get into the schools otherwise.  Both UW and MU have easier majors that athletes gravitate towards.  I think it is silly from people on either side to claim some superiority in both regards.

At Duke most of the b-ball players major in sociology. At many schools there are majors like geography, communications, etc. that the athletes (and lazy, unmotivated students) gravitate towards for majors.

How many of you majored in a hard science, by the way? Doubt there were many here with a pre-med focus.

[GGGG]

UW-Madison only really carries weight inside of the state, and rightfully so.  In Chicago, no one is impressed by UW-Madison.  When I was applying for law schools, Madison was one of the schools people specifically told me not to go to because people know that it is easy. 

Every state has a school like Madison.  It is where many of the top students in (mostly) the public high schools want to go.  By and large Madison doesn't impress people from outside the state, and those other schools don't impress kids from Wisconsin.  That's fine.

[Hards Alumni]

At Duke most of the b-ball players major in sociology. At many schools there are majors like geography, communications, etc. that the athletes (and lazy, unmotivated students) gravitate towards for majors.

How many of you majored in a hard science, by the way? Doubt there were many here with a pre-med focus.

Biomedical Science 2004.

[sailwi]

Mayor M, I'm the one who made the generalization about the dash schools should have said most or many not all with you being an obvious exception and a standard many others should aspire to.

[HoopsMalone]

Every state has a school like Madison.  It is where many of the top students in (mostly) the public high schools want to go.  By and large Madison doesn't impress people from outside the state, and those other schools don't impress kids from Wisconsin.  That's fine.

Very true, but UW-Madison should not think it is this tough school or highly respected school.  They are good, but at the end of the day in an interview Marquette and UW are the same thing.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

"easy classes" that I took at MU 1996-summer 2000:

History of Rock n Roll w/ Dr. Naylor
Jewish Thought and Practice
Intro to Advertising.

[bma725]

Very true, but UW-Madison should not think it is this tough school or highly respected school.  They are good, but at the end of the day in an interview Marquette and UW are the same thing.

You've got to be kidding.  The notion that UW not a highly respected school is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.

There's a reason they rank in the top 35 according to US News.  There's a reason UW is tied with Harvard and Princeton for most Fortune 500 CEOs as graduates.  There's a reason the London Times named it the 55th best university in the world.  There's a reason the Gourman Report ranked it as the third best undergraduate public school in the country.

Not only that, but the notion that a resume saying MU and one saying UW get the same thing just isn't true.  The UW name carries a ton of weight, especially when you get into the scientific fields.

[Hards Alumni]

You've got to be kidding.  The notion that UW not a highly respected school is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.

There's a reason they rank in the top 35 according to US News.  There's a reason UW is tied with Harvard and Princeton for most Fortune 500 CEOs as graduates.  There's a reason the London Times named it the 55th best university in the world.  There's a reason the Gourman Report ranked it as the third best undergraduate public school in the country.

Not only that, but the notion that a resume saying MU and one saying UW get the same thing just isn't true.  The UW name carries a ton of weight, especially when you get into the scientific fields.

you beat me to it bma

[StillAWarrior]

You've got to be kidding.  The notion that UW not a highly respected school is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.

There's a reason they rank in the top 35 according to US News.  There's a reason UW is tied with Harvard and Princeton for most Fortune 500 CEOs as graduates.  There's a reason the London Times named it the 55th best university in the world.  There's a reason the Gourman Report ranked it as the third best undergraduate public school in the country.

Not only that, but the notion that a resume saying MU and one saying UW get the same thing just isn't true.  The UW name carries a ton of weight, especially when you get into the scientific fields.

I can't comment on most of the specifics in this post, but I do know that here in Cleveland, UW is pretty highly regarded.  People have heard of Marquette, but typically don't know where it is.  All they know is that it's a basketball school...which isn't so bad.  I'm not saying UW is better or worse than MU, but I do know that it's thought of as a good school.

[4everwarriors]

"easy classes" that I took at MU 1996-summer 2000:

History of Rock n Roll w/ Dr. Naylor
Jewish Thought and Practice
Intro to Advertising.

Dude, did you take that gem, "Individual and Dual Sports?" I pulled an all-nighter for the final. Studying golf, tennis, and bowling was a bitch. Lab consisted of bowling at the Y. Maurice Lucas was a member of my 4 person bowling team. Frazier, Ostrand, and Spychalla were also in the class.
My English lecture with John Pick included Chones, Lackey, McGuire, Frazier, and Lens' pop. Pick wearing a rubber chicken around his neck for "The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner" was priceless.

[4everwarriors]

Speaking as a double graduate of MU, UW-Madison is an outstanding school with tougher admission standards, especially for Wisconsin residents. In addition, their endowment dwarfs Marquette's. Each offers their students a different experience and to compare and contrast the two is rather pointless. Don't let your emotions confuse the obvious, UW is one of the country's outstanding universities whose graduates are well thought of by industry, professional and graduate schools.

Sorry ecompt.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Speaking as a double graduate of MU, UW-Madison is an outstanding school with tougher admission standards, especially for Wisconsin residents. In addition, their endowment dwarfs Marquette's. Each offers their students a different experience and to compare and contrast the two is rather pointless. Don't let your emotions confuse the obvious, UW is one of the country's outstanding universities whose graduates are well thought of by industry, professional and graduate schools.

Sorry ecompt.

Shockingly enough, I agree with you 100%.

UW is a great school. I can openly admit that.

I still hate everything about "Bucky", but it's a great school.

[TVDirector]

Rick Majerus--as a Raymond's assistant-- used to teach a class called something like "the Philosophy of Coaching."

took it.
rick was awesome... knew every diner, every HS coach, everywhere.

[spartan3186]

At Duke most of the b-ball players major in sociology. At many schools there are majors like geography, communications, etc. that the athletes (and lazy, unmotivated students) gravitate towards for majors.

How many of you majored in a hard science, by the way? Doubt there were many here with a pre-med focus.

Biochemistry and Molecular Biology- 2008

[ecompt]

I never said UW wasn't a fine school. What I said was that to build a Top 25 Division I football team and powerhouse men's and women's hockey teams they need to take a bunch of kids who wouldn't normally be accepted there. And once there they can hide these kids in programs like Phys. Ed, which MU cannot do.

[reinko]

You've got to be kidding.  The notion that UW not a highly respected school is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.

There's a reason they rank in the top 35 according to US News.  There's a reason UW is tied with Harvard and Princeton for most Fortune 500 CEOs as graduates.  There's a reason the London Times named it the 55th best university in the world.  There's a reason the Gourman Report ranked it as the third best undergraduate public school in the country.

Not only that, but the notion that a resume saying MU and one saying UW get the same thing just isn't true.  The UW name carries a ton of weight, especially when you get into the scientific fields.

The only issue, I have with your comment bma is about Fortune 500 CEOs.  UW graduates what 9,000 a year?  Harvard and Princeton together graduate about 2,600-2,800 per year.  Kind of a BS # IMO, but the rest I agree.

I got rejected from UW, best thing I could have ever happened to me. 

Suck on this Bucky!

[ChicosBailBonds]

Speaking as a double graduate of MU, UW-Madison is an outstanding school with tougher admission standards, especially for Wisconsin residents. In addition, their endowment dwarfs Marquette's. Each offers their students a different experience and to compare and contrast the two is rather pointless. Don't let your emotions confuse the obvious, UW is one of the country's outstanding universities whose graduates are well thought of by industry, professional and graduate schools.

Sorry ecompt.

UW_Madison is a great school.  I think at the end of the day, however, the crying over there is pretty weak because we're talking about student athletes.  The difference between admission standards for student athletes at UW-madison and MU is nil.  So they can pontificate about UW-madison's ratings, blah, blah, blah, but they don't mean a squirt of piss in terms of accepting athletes to their teams (or ours) for that matter.  A student athlete that is accepted to MU would be accepted to UW-madison.  Period.   Just look at the clowns they've had over the years on the football, hockey and basketball teams (even soccer) to illustrate the point. 

Ron Dayne is exhibit one and ends all arguments on the spot.  UW-madison will accept anyone, if they choose, that they feel is worth taking the risk on.  MU is no different.   Their whining is just nonsense, they need to look into the mirror.

[GooooMarquette]

You've got to be kidding.  The notion that UW not a highly respected school is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.

There's a reason they rank in the top 35 according to US News.  There's a reason UW is tied with Harvard and Princeton for most Fortune 500 CEOs as graduates.  There's a reason the London Times named it the 55th best university in the world.  There's a reason the Gourman Report ranked it as the third best undergraduate public school in the country.

Not only that, but the notion that a resume saying MU and one saying UW get the same thing just isn't true.  The UW name carries a ton of weight, especially when you get into the scientific fields.

Yes, there are reasons.  And those reasons relate to UW's larger and more prestigious graduate and professional programs, extensive research by internationally-known professors, broad (and sometimes esoteric) majors that aren't available at many other schools...and many other reasons that have no impact whatsoever for most undergraduate students.

As a result, the value of an undergraduate degree is pretty much the same as an undergraduate degree at a school like MU or many others.  The value of a PhD in Biochemistry might be different...but tell me how many football or basketball players from UW have those?

I am speaking from firsthand knowledge, as I attended and have degrees from both schools.  For undergraduates, MU is every bit as good as UW.  The differences start only when you go back for a graduate or professional degree.

As a matter of fact, I witnessed firsthand some situations where things that improved UW's reputation on paper actually compromised the undergraduate education.  I worked directly with an internationally-renouned researcher in cardiovascular physiology - huge funding from NIH, AHA and other places - the kind of reputation that US News loves.  Well, this guy was also in charge of teaching an undergraduate physiology course, and he basically ignored that part of the job.  I asked him why, and he muttered something about his research being more important, and that the curriculum was OK on autopilot.  And knowing many other folks in the biological sciences at UW, this was a common feeling.  In contrast, I worked with people who taught similar courses at MU, and they almost universally viewed teaching as the most important aspect of their job.  Result?  UW gets great external ratings, does great research, and provides nearly incomparable opportunities for graduate and professional students.  But if you just want to go and get a BS or BA, you will probably be just as well off (maybe even better) at a school like MU.

[Hards Alumni]

well, that and alumni associations and networking.

[GooooMarquette]

well, that and alumni associations and networking.

Ahhh...the "bigger is better" theory....

[WellsstreetWanderer]

"My English lecture with John Pick included Chones, Lackey, McGuire, Frazier, and Lens' pop. Pick wearing a rubber chicken around his neck for "The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner" was priceless."


   John Pick was one of my favorite teachers at MU. Others were Roger Parr and "DAD Murphy"  Sorry if you didin't get to know them

[AZWarrior]

At Duke most of the b-ball players major in sociology. At many schools there are majors like geography, communications, etc. that the athletes (and lazy, unmotivated students) gravitate towards for majors.

How many of you majored in a hard science, by the way? Doubt there were many here with a pre-med focus.

Electrical Engineering

[GooooMarquette]

How many of you majored in a hard science, by the way? Doubt there were many here with a pre-med focus.

Biology '83...followed by med school.  And yes, I had plenty of friends who did the same, ending up at med schools like UW, the Medical College of Wisconsin, the University of Chicago and Northwestern.  All from little old Marquette.

If this kind of thing surprises you, it makes me wonder who you hung around with....

[Hards Alumni]

i think he was mostly referencing people who populate this board.