Vander Blue reopening his recruitment according to Rivals

[ChicosBailBonds]

let's do whatever it takes to get this guy.

Whatever?  I assume you mean within the rules.   

[Marquette84]

I think there is some confusion here, so let me restate my general idea.

#1 I know Buzz comes in with a reputation as a good recruiter. I believe he has shown good/promising ability at MU so far.

#2 I don't think Buzz promised a bunch of things to the incoming recruits. The point of my previous post was that it's not just about getting signatures on the dotted line. I think a new coach could go out and sell players and families on a lot of promises in an effort to get them to sign. When these promises aren't fulfilled, the players will be unhappy and probably leave. By your definition, that coach is a great recruiter because he got the players to sign. My definition is that the players have to sign, come to MU and be relatively successful over a period of time.

#3 I do think that Buzz is a good coach, and I'm very optimistic for the future.

#4 I do NOT think we've seen enough to simply label Buzz a "GREAT" recruiter... I think it's ok to say TBD. Can you say "great so far"? Yes. Promising? Yes.

Does this make sense?

I think the problem is that you're using 20/20 hindsight on Crean and making a direct comparison to Buzz based on promise.

For example:

• Brandon Bell was a highly recruited guy we beat Arizona (among others) to get
• Junior Cadougan was a highly recruited guy we beat Michigan, MSU, Syracuse,Arizona, Florida State and Illinois (according to rivals) to get.

You use Bell as an example of what a poor recruiter Crean is, but Cadougan as an example of what a great recruiter Buzz is, even though both both coaches landed highly recruited players over other elite programs.

If THAT is your criteria for who a great recruiter is, then Crean and Buzz were both great recruiters.

Buy you are using a double standard.
Your view of Crean's recruiting is based only how his failed recruits performed over time.
Your view of Buzz's recruiting is solely based on their future promise.

That is two different standards.  

For example, if you're honest, you'd admit that you cannot possibly know if Maymon will be any different than Mbakwe or Amoroso.  You just can't do it.  All three players were highly rated.  All three were recruited by top programs.  The only difference is that we know how Mbakwe and Amoroso turned out.  You simply don't know what will happen with Maymon.  

And that's just one example.  We can go down the list.  Compare Kinsella to Mbao.  Cadougan to Bell.  Johnson-Odom to Christian.  Buycks to Wade.  Clark to Merritt.  Butler to ODB.  Etc. etc. etc.

The only difference in each comparison is hindsight versus promise.  In each comparison, both players were  promising recruits, in most cases under the radar, and players that MU beat other high-major programs to get.  The only difference is that you know what happened with Crean's recruits.

Let's face it--you're not making a single honest comparison here--the only comments you seem capable of making are infused with your anti-Crean bias.

[ChuckyChip]

+1 - Best comments I've read on this board in a long while.

We all hope the new recruits work out, but I don't think you can evaluate things until 2-3 years down the road.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think the problem is that you're using 20/20 hindsight on Crean and making a direct comparison to Buzz based on promise.

For example:

• Brandon Bell was a highly recruited guy we beat Arizona (among others) to get
• Junior Cadougan was a highly recruited guy we beat Michigan, MSU, Syracuse,Arizona, Florida State and Illinois (according to rivals) to get.

You use Bell as an example of what a poor recruiter Crean is, but Cadougan as an example of what a great recruiter Buzz is, even though both both coaches landed highly recruited players over other elite programs.

If THAT is your criteria for who a great recruiter is, then Crean and Buzz were both great recruiters.

Buy you are using a double standard.
Your view of Crean's recruiting is based only how his failed recruits performed over time.
Your view of Buzz's recruiting is solely based on their future promise.

That is two different standards.  

For example, if you're honest, you'd admit that you cannot possibly know if Maymon will be any different than Mbakwe or Amoroso.  You just can't do it.  All three players were highly rated.  All three were recruited by top programs.  The only difference is that we know how Mbakwe and Amoroso turned out.  You simply don't know what will happen with Maymon.  

And that's just one example.  We can go down the list.  Compare Kinsella to Mbao.  Cadougan to Bell.  Johnson-Odom to Christian.  Buycks to Wade.  Clark to Merritt.  Butler to ODB.  Etc. etc. etc.

The only difference in each comparison is hindsight versus promise.  In each comparison, both players were  promising recruits, in most cases under the radar, and players that MU beat other high-major programs to get.  The only difference is that you know what happened with Crean's recruits.

Let's face it--you're not making a single honest comparison here--the only comments you seem capable of making are infused with your anti-Crean bias.

I actually agree with most of what you said... I think you might be directing this post at somebody else.

[Lennys Tap]

But what if all of these kids come in and are unhappy about the direction of the team or their minutes?

Let's say a coach promises the world to some kids and gets a great recruiting class. If those kids come in and realize the program is not what the coach promised and leave, is that coach still a great "recruiter" because he got them on campus as a frosh. but then they all leave after 1 or 2 years?

Again, I don't understand the rush to say that Buzz is either "great" at something or "terrible" at something.

Isn't it reasonable to say TBD?

Until someone delivers your eulogy I guess everything is TBD. From now on, let's refrain from any judgements until all the facts are in. I assume you don't vote - how could anyone possibly make an informed judgement without the benefit of hindsight.

All of your what ifs are possible. Let me add a few more. What if Buzz is buying these players? What if he hires someone to write  papers to keep players eligible? What if this aw shucks stuff is an act and he turns out to be a phony? Then I will have been wrong about him and I'll admit being wrong. Won't be the first time or the last.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I really don't think all this talk of great/tbd recruiter is going anywhere.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Until someone delivers your eulogy I guess everything is TBD. From now on, let's refrain from any judgements until all the facts are in. I assume you don't vote - how could anyone possibly make an informed judgement without the benefit of hindsight.

All of your what ifs are possible. Let me add a few more. What if Buzz is buying these players? What if he hires someone to write  papers to keep players eligible? What if this aw shucks stuff is an act and he turns out to be a phony? Then I will have been wrong about him and I'll admit being wrong. Won't be the first time or the last.

You know what, you're right.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree...

I don't think there is anything wrong with waiting a couple of years before I fall in love with a coach.  I've always been this way with coaches/teams. I did the same thing for TC. I've done the same for pro coaches. It's just the way I look at it. I don't think you can know if a guy is "terrible" or "great" after 1 year. Takes time to evaluate.

If Buzz had lost more games this year and didn't have a highly ranked class, I would NOT being saying "he's terrible", I'd be saying "TBD", let's see what the guy can do for a couple of years.

You've made it clear that you don't necessary follow this type of thinking, so we can just agree to disagree.

No problem. It's all good.

[Hards Alumni]

Brandon Bell had personal problems... he was still a good player... and a pretty good person.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Until someone delivers your eulogy I guess everything is TBD. From now on, let's refrain from any judgements until all the facts are in. I assume you don't vote - how could anyone possibly make an informed judgement without the benefit of hindsight.

All of your what ifs are possible. Let me add a few more. What if Buzz is buying these players? What if he hires someone to write  papers to keep players eligible? What if this aw shucks stuff is an act and he turns out to be a phony? Then I will have been wrong about him and I'll admit being wrong. Won't be the first time or the last.

That's one way of looking at it.  Some people pass judgment day one, others like to kick the tires around, take her for a spin.   Did you marry the first girl you kissed?    

I don't see a problem with either viewpoint.  But I do see one side attacking others that aren't ready to proclaim the Messiah is here.  That by no way means we don't support Buzz, doesn't mean we want him to fail, nothing of the kind.  We're just not ready to marry him yet.      We'd like a few years of success.

Doesn't make us wrong, doesn't make you wrong.  I think some of us just get tired of the label of anti-Buzz or whatever because we haven't put all the chips in.  You're there, you've made your decision.  Good for you.  Others haven't and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

[THEGYMBAR]

I said months ago I thought Buzz was promising the world and still believe that. There is a reason why "a great recruiter" never had a real HC job in the past. Buzz is doing whatever it takes and it might be making promises that hard to deliver on. I believe that we will have a revolving door during Buzz's time and graduation rate or kids lasting 2 or 4 years will be much lower than TC's time. Also believe we will have exciting basketball on the court and great gossip online.

[Warrior97]

I said months ago I thought Buzz was promising the world and still believe that. There is a reason why "a great recruiter" never had a real HC job in the past. Buzz is doing whatever it takes and it might be making promises that hard to deliver on. I believe that we will have a revolving door during Buzz's time and graduation rate or kids lasting 2 or 4 years will be much lower than TC's time. Also believe we will have exciting basketball on the court and great gossip online.

I am definitely in the group that is excited with what I have seen, but have not made up my mind with regards to Buzz.  However, I think this statement is pretty crazy.  He started his first year as a head coach (UNO) at the age of 33.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I think the problem is that you're using 20/20 hindsight on Crean and making a direct comparison to Buzz based on promise.

For example:

• Brandon Bell was a highly recruited guy we beat Arizona (among others) to get
• Junior Cadougan was a highly recruited guy we beat Michigan, MSU, Syracuse,Arizona, Florida State and Illinois (according to rivals) to get.

You use Bell as an example of what a poor recruiter Crean is, but Cadougan as an example of what a great recruiter Buzz is, even though both both coaches landed highly recruited players over other elite programs.

If THAT is your criteria for who a great recruiter is, then Crean and Buzz were both great recruiters.

Buy you are using a double standard.
Your view of Crean's recruiting is based only how his failed recruits performed over time.
Your view of Buzz's recruiting is solely based on their future promise.

That is two different standards.  

For example, if you're honest, you'd admit that you cannot possibly know if Maymon will be any different than Mbakwe or Amoroso.  You just can't do it.  All three players were highly rated.  All three were recruited by top programs.  The only difference is that we know how Mbakwe and Amoroso turned out.  You simply don't know what will happen with Maymon.  

And that's just one example.  We can go down the list.  Compare Kinsella to Mbao.  Cadougan to Bell.  Johnson-Odom to Christian.  Buycks to Wade.  Clark to Merritt.  Butler to ODB.  Etc. etc. etc.

The only difference in each comparison is hindsight versus promise.  In each comparison, both players were  promising recruits, in most cases under the radar, and players that MU beat other high-major programs to get.  The only difference is that you know what happened with Crean's recruits.

Let's face it--you're not making a single honest comparison here--the only comments you seem capable of making are infused with your anti-Crean bias.

TWo truly terible examples 84.

First of all Brandon Bell was never offered a scholarship by Arizona, he was significantly more lightly recruited than Junior.  Junior is a consensus top 75 recruit, top 50 and top 25 in some lists.  brandon Bell was never on a top 100 list of any kind that I recall, maybe he made one.  he was generally a top 10 rated recruit out of Michgan a decent player but While Junior is rated a top 10 PG nationally Bell was atop 10 player from Michigan. Junior was named MVP of multiple AAu tourneys and camps and led his teeam to some pretty exclusive titeles...bell none of that. Worlds apart.

Smae goes for Amoroso he was a 3 star recruit, jerrone a 4.  Jerronne was a two time State player of the year playing for a two time state finalist.  Jerrone was the center of many recruitng articles and in the middle of a feverish recruiting battle of many top programs and did glowingly at many of the top competitons....Amo not so much.   Jerrone again is a consensus top 75 recruit higher on some lists, Amoroso was never a top 100 kid.  

MAybe you are comparing them becasue they play the same position?...apart from that I see absolutely no similarities.

[Niv Berkowitz]

All ratings on incoming classes is purely subjective. So, that being the case, you have to evaluate the talent level you have coming in based on a balanced review of all the ratings players have. And, in the case here, you have to compare apples to apples.

If comparing Crean's classes to Buzz', you have to do so based on incoming rankings (4 stars, 3 stars, etc...). So far, based on who Buzz has been able to bring in, he's done a phenominal job, especially givien his short coaching resume.

Now, we can't truly rank the results/players as college ballers for a couple years. That's obvious. But, based on where all the "experts" have h.s. players ranked, Buzz has been 'great' so far.

In two/three years, we'll all be able to find out how well he does coaching these guys and making them improve their game.

[Blackhat]

With Crean you usually knew if he got a 4 star they would be good to great.   We have to see if the same holds true with Buzz now or if his players and ultimately team underachieves.   The only constant is the recruiting evaluators the variable is Buzz & Crean.   

[bma725]

Bell was rated #57 by Bob Gibbons in his final class of 2003 ranking.  

At the time he committed to MU in 2002, he was ranked in the top 100 by Gibbons, Rivals and what was then TheInsidersHoops, now Scout.com.  Prior to the commitment he'd been ranked by either HoopScoop or HoopMasters, I can't remember which.  He didn't have the senior season everyone thought he would have, so all those services dropped him.

[wadesworld]

...I would love to get some information on Vander Blue in this topic that was made for Vander Blue.

[Kramerica]

...I would love to get some information on Vander Blue in this topic that was made for Vander Blue.

+1. 

I think there are at least 3-4 threads that are currently being commented on right now that are about Buzz and Crean.  I know that the one about the replacement for Dale Layer has been hijacked into Crean vs. Buzz thread.  I really wish we could just have a place for all Buzz vs. Crean discussions to go and recruiting threads could be left alone. 

[bma725]

...I would love to get some information on Vander Blue in this topic that was made for Vander Blue.

There isn't any information.  This whole thing is based off a facebook status he put up yesterday.  Since then he's been out of touch.  He's not returning calls or texts, his mom isn't returning calls, his coaches aren't returning calls, even his teammates aren't saying anything.  The coaching staff at UW hasn't even heard from him, and there's nothing official saying he's opening it up.  

Anything beyond that is just speculation, because the kid and those close to him have gone in to lockdown mode.

[Blackhat]

I don't know what your threshold is for official however rivals.com and sportsbubbler.com have put it as a news headline on their website based on "inside source" information. 

It'd be pretty reckless for both of them to put that on their websites off of a facebook mention. 

[tower912]

I have been guilty of jumping to conclusions here.    I have yet to see a quote from Blue, or anyone close to him.   Everything is 'unnamed sources' and a facebook entry.   While it has been wildly entertaining and amusing, we need to all chill until something from a reliable, attributable source comes out.   Until then, it is nothing but an internet circle jerk.

[bma725]

I don't know what your threshold is for official however rivals.com and sportsbubbler.com have put it as a news headline on their website based on "inside source" information. 

It'd be pretty reckless for both of them to put that on their websites off of a facebook mention. 

While it may be reckless for sites to publish it claiming "inside sources" that kind of thing happens all the time.  Just last week there were reports that Louisville recruit Josh Langord had opened up his recruitment.  When reached, Langford said it wasn't true, and the reporter that wrote story had turned his quote of "no, I'm staying committed" into "I still like Louisville, but I've decided to open it back up and listen to other schools also".

So really, nothing is official until the kid says it is and confirms it more than once.

[MR.HAYWARD]

There isn't any information.  This whole thing is based off a facebook status he put up yesterday.  Since then he's been out of touch.  He's not returning calls or texts, his mom isn't returning calls, his coaches aren't returning calls, even his teammates aren't saying anything.  The coaching staff at UW hasn't even heard from him, and there's nothing official saying he's opening it up.  

Anything beyond that is just speculation, because the kid and those close to him have gone in to lockdown mode.

in other words it's true ....if it were not true he would be responding via the media like he did last time. to know the firestorm is out their and to turn off you cell phone and respond in no way...well the silence is deafening as they say.  


sort of like  how Crean operated all the rumors yet nothing, the only time he responded to the rumors was each summer after a freshly renegotiated contract.  and then par for the course last spring responded in no way to the rumors even after his team had heard about it.  In no way would I compare Vander to our classless ass of a former coach just saying the situations are the same but in no way would I say the men are the same.  buzz recruits character.

[Big Papi]

There isn't any information.  This whole thing is based off a facebook status he put up yesterday.  Since then he's been out of touch.  He's not returning calls or texts, his mom isn't returning calls, his coaches aren't returning calls, even his teammates aren't saying anything.  The coaching staff at UW hasn't even heard from him, and there's nothing official saying he's opening it up.  

Anything beyond that is just speculation, because the kid and those close to him have gone in to lockdown mode.

Absolutely nothing has come out of the Vander Blue camp and yet that speaks volumes in and of itself.

[MU_Iceman]

I have been guilty of jumping to conclusions here.    I have yet to see a quote from Blue, or anyone close to him.   Everything is 'unnamed sources' and a facebook entry.   While it has been wildly entertaining and amusing, we need to all chill until something from a reliable, attributable source comes out.   Until then, it is nothing but an internet circle jerk.

Amid all the pointless rhetoric proclaiming Buzz the NCAA's newest recruiting messiah and the subsequent arguments between people with common sense (ie. those who choose to take the WAIT AND SEE approach when dubbing a coach / recruiter "great") and the anti-Crean folk who merely needed the committment of a few big (albeit unproven) names to grant a coach Diety-status...THIS POST, referencing the rumors and arguments as being nothing more than an internet circle jerk, was the one that made my wasted time worth while...thanks for the chuckle, Tower!   

[4everwarriors]

Hay is absolutely right on both accounts. First, were it not true, loud denials would have already surfaced. Secondly, Crean is a useless ass.