I feel bad for Marquette84

[Pakuni]

Yes, because we all know that consistency that O'Neill, Deane and Buzz have shown in landing Chicago area recruits.  Wisconsin recruits as well, for that matter.

When after Kevin O'Neill landed the first wave of Key, McIlvane and Logterman, Craig Aamont and Shannon Smith, how many Wisconsin players did he land?  How many illinois players?  

Lets see.  We had Shane Littles from GA, Zach McCall from MA, Dwyane Streeter and Amal McCaskill from the St. Louis area, Abel Joseph from Canada, Faisal Abraham from the Virgin Islands, Chris Crawford from Michigan, Aaron Hutchins from Ohio.

Doesn't look like a deep roster from Chicago.

Amal McCaskill was from Chicago. As was William Gates. And Charles Brakes. Ronald Curry was from the Bloomington/Normal area. O'Neill did just fine with Illinois players.

I'm not one who believes MU must focus its recruiting on Illinois and Wisconsin in order to succeed, but the fact of the matter is O'Neill did seem to do that. By my count, of the 23 scholarship players he brought to Marquette, 12 of them were from Wisconsin or Illinois (Stewart, Zavada, Brakes, Key, McIlvaine, Logtermann, Curry, McCasskill, Gates, Smith, Streater, Pieper) .

[Marquette84]

Amal McCaskill was from Chicago. As was William Gates. And Charles Brakes. Ronald Curry was from the Bloomington/Normal area. O'Neill did just fine with Illinois players.

I'm not one who believes MU must focus its recruiting on Illinois and Wisconsin in order to succeed, but the fact of the matter is O'Neill did seem to do that. By my count, of the 23 scholarship players he brought to Marquette, 12 of them were from Wisconsin or Illinois (Stewart, Zavada, Brakes, Key, McIlvaine, Logtermann, Curry, McCasskill, Gates, Smith, Streater, Pieper) .

I'd consider Brakes and Curry part of the first group of recruits--and I think its a stretch to include Bloomington as part of "Chicago." 

I stand corrected on McCaskill. 

Meanwhile, of the 12 players from Wisconsin or Illinois, only one of them (Pieper) was from his final two recruiting classes. 

I think you'd agree that there was a shift away from Wisconsin and Illinois later in O'Neill's tenure. Whether it was intentional on O'Neill's part, or a reaction of the local community, I only post that observation to counter the comment that a shift of recruiting focus away from Illinois was a a sign of poor recruiting by one particular coach.

Rather, a shift to a national recruiting base is something that MU coaches have worked for 20+ years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

1) TC has a little more margin for error at a state school that is also one of the top 6 jobs in America.  Heck even Bo Ryan can p!ss off a WI HS hoops coach or too and not feel the ramifications.  At MU, you can't do that, from what I've heard, TC did.  That all being said, if laying money, I would go on the he'll be fired in 5-6 years side.

Now it's 5-6 years?   A few months ago you said 4-5 years....are you getting soft in your old age?   

[Pakuni]

I'd consider Brakes and Curry part of the first group of recruits--and I think its a stretch to include Bloomington as part of "Chicago."  

Huh? Where did I say Bloomington/Normal was part of Chicago?
Read again:

" Ronald Curry was from the Bloomington/Normal area. O'Neill did just fine with Illinois players."

This was in response to your question:

"How many illinois players?"

[ChicosBailBonds]

Amal McCaskill was from Chicago. As was William Gates. And Charles Brakes. Ronald Curry was from the Bloomington/Normal area. O'Neill did just fine with Illinois players.

I'm not one who believes MU must focus its recruiting on Illinois and Wisconsin in order to succeed, but the fact of the matter is O'Neill did seem to do that. By my count, of the 23 scholarship players he brought to Marquette, 12 of them were from Wisconsin or Illinois (Stewart, Zavada, Brakes, Key, McIlvaine, Logtermann, Curry, McCasskill, Gates, Smith, Streater, Pieper) .

McCasskill was a throw in player essentially in a package deal.  Let's also not forget, as so many here do, that UW-Madison was an absolute joke for 50+ years until they finally made the NCAAs in 1994.  So picking up Key, Logterman, MacIlvaine, Pieper and others were a LOT easier back then because there was no competition in state.  Illinois was also on a slide when 1990 rolled around.  The 1990-91 season was the last in which they won 20 games for 5 years...including two years while KO was at MU where the Illini didn't make any tournament at all.  The competition for Wisconsin and Illinois players was much different than it has been the last decade.

[Murffieus]

I don't like your insinuation that Nick Williams, Tyshawn Taylor, Erik Williams Joe Fulce and Chris Otule are idiots becuase they signed (or verballed) to MU.


BTW, does this same excuse hold for Majerus?  He never managed to land a player equal to Andre Miller or Keith Van Horn after getting to a final four.

I guess he didn't know how to market that succeess either.

Nick Williams signed because of Crean having coached D Wade and already has become disillusioned and has left Crean after only one year----so that Wade bond wasn't very strong at all. Crean brought  D Wade to Madness in October 2007 to recruit Schmpert, but instead came away with Erik Williams-----we'll see how that works out.

Taylor didn't sign because Crean coached Wade or he would have followed him to Indiana-----ditto for Fulce and Otule.

I think Rick's problem at Utah in the last few years was health-----didn't have the same energy level-----Rick never was a great recruiter-----his forte is developing players.

BTW-----Final 4s didn't seem to bother programs with great recruiters like Memphis, UCONN, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Duke, etc------along with generally having to have very good players to reach the final 4 you also have to have some good fortune as well!

[Marquette84]

Huh? Where did I say Bloomington/Normal was part of Chicago?
Read again:

" Ronald Curry was from the Bloomington/Normal area. O'Neill did just fine with Illinois players."

This was in response to your question:

"How many illinois players?"

Whatever. 

It hardly changes the fact that O'Neill's recruiting changed significantly later in his tenure. 

I think you're just looking for ways to disagree. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Without Wade it's still likely that TC would no longer be at Marquette, but it would not be by his choice.

Oh c'mon.

Hyperbole at it's finest.

Even before Wade started a game (and everybody saw how good he was) Crean had already landed

- Diener (future NBA player)
- Merrit (one of the higher ranked recruits MU had seen in a while)
- Blankson (very good college player)
- Sanders (good role player)
- and was close to landing Steve Novak (future NBA player) (not sure when Steve verbaled).

Wade certainly has helped Crean a ton... but to think that Crean would have been fired without him is one of the dumber things I've read.

Even without Wade, that's still a pretty good selection of talent that would have been better than anything MU had seen since 94. Certainly Crean would have been solid enough to not get fired (especially coming off of Deane).

Guys, don't let your dislike of the guy cloud your judgment of his ability to coach college basketball.

[Marquette84]

BTW-----Final 4s didn't seem to bother programs with great recruiters like Memphis, UCONN, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Duke, etc------along with generally having to have very good players to reach the final 4 you also have to have some good fortune as well!

Well this is the point, isn't it?  Marquette isn't a Duke or UNC or UCLA-type program.  Marquette was a stepping stone program, unable to hold onto a coach.

Those type of schools can reload.  Marquette wasn't in that situation in 2003.
--We were non-BCS school.
--The conference we DID play in was not perceived highly by our own fans, no less possible recruits.
--26 years between final four appearances.
--coach in his 5th year, where the average coaching tenure over the previous generation was just over 4 years.

That doesn't quite fit Duke or UNC, does it?

[Murffieus]

But as I say----the reason Crean didn't "reload" after the final 4 was because he showcased Wade's abilities rather than his own!

If I'm being recruited I want to know how and what a coach /school is going to do for ME to get to the NBA-----not what he did for someone who had extraordinary largely unduplicable abilities in the first place!

[ChicosBailBonds]

But as I say----the reason Crean didn't "reload" after the final 4 was because he showcased Wade's abilities rather than his own!

If I'm being recruited I want to know how and what a coach /school is going to do for ME to get to the NBA-----not what he did for someone who had extraordinary largely on duplicable abilities in the first place!

Didn't Wade, himself, say Crean was a great coach?  Diener as well?   So if those guys are saying that, then it's an endorsement for additional recruiting.  In other words, certainly he's selling Wade's abilities, but Wade is selling Crean's as well.  Wade was a better player when he left then when he came.  So was Diener, Novak and many others.

[MR.HAYWARD]

You know, Hayward, here's the most pathetic thing about you:

YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW WHAT CONFERENCE WE WERE IN IN 2003!!!

You are OBVIOUSLY not a Marquette fan--true Marquette fans know that our first season in the Big East didn't occur until 2006.  

Instead, every disadvantage you apply to Utah applies equally to Marquette:


***.Utah went to the Final 4 for the first time since Brigham Young played
And the last time MU went to the Final 4 was about the time Gerald Ford was handing power to Jimmy Carter.

***becuase they had two great players
And so did MU. Three if you count Novak.

***.to then expect a cinderella
Which is exactly what MU was called in 2003.

***non BCS school.

Conference USA was about as "non-BCS as you can get.  


***to repeat that is purely senseless.
So why are you so upset with MU's post-2003 performance?


*** that is why they call them cinderellas becuase they are once in a generation
1977 to 2003:  26 years--almost exactly one generation had passed since MU's last final 4.


****and that is why big time recruits dont flock there year after year becuase they know that!!
And yet, you ripped on Crean incessantly for the 2003 recruiting class, even though you admit that big time recruits don't flock to cinderella, once-in-a-generation, non-BCS schools.


*** To use that as an excuse why a coach at a BE program with all the advantages tom Crean had is terribly off base.  

MU was not a BE program

MU 84 your defense and hypothesis to defend Creans recruiting is simply pathetic....i do know what year Mu joined the BE...

let me ask this why do you keep referring to recruitng during and before 2003. 

Explain his recruitng classes 2004 thru 2008.  they were simply horrendous, apart from Hayward and Mbakwe  i think a legitiamate argumane tcan be made that we simply should not have offered a single one of those other kids.  And all those kids knew they were signing with a final 4 coach, to play in the BE, Dwade etc at the BC and at the Al.

[reinko]

MU 84 your defense and hypothesis to defend Creans recruiting is simply pathetic....i do know what year Mu joined the BE...

let me ask this why do you keep referring to recruitng during and before 2003. 

Explain his recruitng classes 2004 thru 2008.  they were simply horrendous, apart from Hayward and Mbakwe  i think a legitiamate argumane tcan be made that we simply should not have offered a single one of those other kids.  And all those kids knew they were signing with a final 4 coach, to play in the BE, Dwade etc at the BC and at the Al.

Yeah the class of DJ, 'Rel, and Matthews = simply horrendous and should not have been offered.   

[Lennys Tap]

Didn't Wade, himself, say Crean was a great coach?  Diener as well?   So if those guys are saying that, then it's an endorsement for additional recruiting.  In other words, certainly he's selling Wade's abilities, but Wade is selling Crean's as well.  Wade was a better player when he left then when he came.  So was Diener, Novak and many others.

Wade's improvement at MU pales in comparison to the strides he's made since he went to the NBA. The 5th player taken in the 2003 draft, he is now one of the top 3 players in the world, the best to come out of the college ranks since Shaq. He'll likely go down as one of 20 best in NBA history, light years ahead of where he projected based on his play at MU. That's on Wade (and maybe a little Riley) not TC.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Yeah the class of DJ, 'Rel, and Matthews = simply horrendous and should not have been offered.   

I have acknowledged Crean signed two good classes I am referring to the classes he signed since we annouced the BE deal sans the on good class he signed in those periods.  Sad thing is he wasted those three simply a criminal waste of those three byt signeing Horizon level classes year after year despite all of the luxuires of a BE BCS program.  To try to imagine what type of classes oneil would have signed with those luxuries is mind blowing hard to imagine...oh wait no it;s not Buzz just did it.  ANd like Oneill is following it up with another outstanding class. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wade's improvement at MU pales in comparison to the strides he's made since he went to the NBA. The 5th player taken in the 2003 draft, he is now one of the top 3 players in the world, the best to come out of the college ranks since Shaq. He'll likely go down as one of 20 best in NBA history, light years ahead of where he projected based on his play at MU. That's on Wade (and maybe a little Riley) not TC.

Well of course.  At MU or any NCAA school, you're limited to practice time each week.  In the NBA, you do nothing but play basketball 24/7.  By the comparison you are using, Michael Jordan excelled tremendously when he left North Carolina so does that make Dean Smith a lousy coach?   I can't think of an elite player in the NBA that isn't better or significantly better in the NBA then he was in college. 

Almost every player gets better individually when they go to the NBA because that is their sole focus on life.

[ChicosBailBonds]

By the way, this image that I see everyday is absolutely beautiful

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Wade's improvement at MU pales in comparison to the strides he's made since he went to the NBA. The 5th player taken in the 2003 draft, he is now one of the top 3 players in the world, the best to come out of the college ranks since Shaq. He'll likely go down as one of 20 best in NBA history, light years ahead of where he projected based on his play at MU. That's on Wade (and maybe a little Riley) not TC.

C'mon Lenny.

Crean is not perfect, but to say he didn't help Wade develop at all is almost as stupid as your last comment.

I mean, by your logic, every player who exceeds expectations (ie draft position) in the NBA must have had a crappy college coach that didn't develop that player.

That's ridiculous. Just stop and think about it for a second.

For the 1,000 time. I get that coach Crean rubbed some people the wrong way, but the conclusions some of you jump to in an effort to discredit him are illogical.

[mugrad99]

Was the original argument that success in the torunament is bad for recruiting at Marquette (and other schools not named Kentucky, Kansas, NC, Duke, UCLA, and Indiana) because of the negative recruiting by other schools saying your coach is going to leave?

MU84, are you saying that is the primary factor why Coach Crean could not land a decent class immediately following the 03 Final Four?

[Lennys Tap]

Oh c'mon.

Hyperbole at it's finest.

Even before Wade started a game (and everybody saw how good he was) Crean had already landed

- Diener (future NBA player)
- Merrit (one of the higher ranked recruits MU had seen in a while)
- Blankson (very good college player)
- Sanders (good role player)
- and was close to landing Steve Novak (future NBA player) (not sure when Steve verbaled).

Wade certainly has helped Crean a ton... but to think that Crean would have been fired without him is one of the dumber things I've read.

Even without Wade, that's still a pretty good selection of talent that would have been better than anything MU had seen since 94. Certainly Crean would have been solid enough to not get fired (especially coming off of Deane).

Guys, don't let your dislike of the guy cloud your judgment of his ability to coach college basketball.

Crean's record in his first 4 years at MU without Wade was 68-52. His Conference USA  record was 32-32, with no NCAA tournament bids and 3 NIT bids (2-3 record with home court wins vs. Toledo and Boise St. and losses at home to Xavier and W. Michigan and at Iowa St.) With Wade, MU was 26-7 and 27-6 including a 1st round NCAA loss and a final 4. Without Wade I think it's fair to say that those teams are in the 20-11 range, borderline NCAA/NIT teams.

That would make TC 108-74 through 6 seasons and with little or no postseason success. When year 6 concluded with a 19-12 record, including a 7-9 CUSA slate, 1st round elimination in the CUSA tourney and a 1st round home court annihilation at the hands of Western Michigan, I'd say there's a good chance TC would have been let go. If you think that's one of the dumber things you've ever read so be it.

[Lennys Tap]

Well of course.  At MU or any NCAA school, you're limited to practice time each week.  In the NBA, you do nothing but play basketball 24/7.  By the comparison you are using, Michael Jordan excelled tremendously when he left North Carolina so does that make Dean Smith a lousy coach?   I can't think of an elite player in the NBA that isn't better or significantly better in the NBA then he was in college. 

Almost every player gets better individually when they go to the NBA because that is their sole focus on life.

Of course they get better. But Wade got WAY BETTER, beyond the bell curve better. The same is true for Jordan. I never said Dean Smith was a lousy coach, but MJ was going to become MJ regardless of what school he attended. Same with Wade.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Was the original argument that success in the torunament is bad for recruiting at Marquette (and other schools not named Kentucky, Kansas, NC, Duke, UCLA, and Indiana) because of the negative recruiting by other schools saying your coach is going to leave?

MU84, are you saying that is the primary factor why Coach Crean could not land a decent class immediately following the 03 Final Four?

In following this thread, I think his argument is that once we got to the Final Four, rumors were rampant in the media and by other coaches that Crean would leave soon (just like every other MU coach in the previous 20 years).  That doesn't help recruiting.  Going to a Final Four, IMO, helps the school and can help the coach DEPENDING on what school we're talking about.  For Duke, UNC, UCLA, etc coaches don't leave those programs and as such those Final Fours just keep on helping.

But I think MU84's point is (he can correct me if I'm wrong), that when you accomplish this at a school that had only one Sweet 16 the previous 25 years, well it becomes conventional wisdom that the guy is leaving any second now and that hampers recruiting MORE than the benefit of getting to the Final Four.  At least that's how I interpret his comments.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Crean's record in his first 4 years at MU without Wade was 68-52. His Conference USA  record was 32-32, with no NCAA tournament bids and 3 NIT bids (2-3 record with home court wins vs. Toledo and Boise St. and losses at home to Xavier and W. Michigan and at Iowa St.) With Wade, MU was 26-7 and 27-6 including a 1st round NCAA loss and a final 4. Without Wade I think it's fair to say that those teams are in the 20-11 range, borderline NCAA/NIT teams.

That would make TC 108-74 through 6 seasons and with little or no postseason success. When year 6 concluded with a 19-12 record, including a 7-9 CUSA slate, 1st round elimination in the CUSA tourney and a 1st round home court annihilation at the hands of Western Michigan, I'd say there's a good chance TC would have been let go. If you think that's one of the dumber things you've ever read so be it.

What kind of team did Mike Deane hand over to Crean to muddy that record?  If I recall, it was a team that had a losing record, couldn't even make the NIT and the one recruit coming in was a guy named Krunti Hester who ended averaging about 7 points a game at Lamar.

So as much as you are assigning Wade for the success of the program you are equally ignoring what an inexperienced and realitvely untalented team he inherited.  Seems like you are cherry picking only one side of the reality to make your case.


I'm also keep forgetting, who landed Wade?  I always thought the coach that lands the recruits gets credit for such achievement?  Yet with some of you that doesn't apply to Crean. Instead it's "he won the lottery" exception.  I suppose I don't understand the double standard at play?   Didn't Buzz "win the lottery" with Maymon because the school he wanted to go to (Wisconsin) was not interested with him and didn't bother to offer?  Or does the "luck" only apply to one coach? 

I'll tell you what, I'm glad Buzz got that break with Maymon and I'm glad Crean got that break with Wade.  Either way, at the end of the day they landed those players and they get the credit for that....INCLUDING any success on the basketball court that followed as a result of landing said players.  Recruiting, afterall, is a huge part of coaching at the collegiate ranks (that's why we hired Crean and that's why we hired Buzz) 

[Lennys Tap]

C'mon Lenny.

Crean is not perfect, but to say he didn't help Wade develop at all is almost as stupid as your last comment.

I mean, by your logic, every player who exceeds expectations (ie draft position) in the NBA must have had a crappy college coach that didn't develop that player.

That's ridiculous. Just stop and think about it for a second.

For the 1,000 time. I get that coach Crean rubbed some people the wrong way, but the conclusions some of you jump to in an effort to discredit him are illogical.

First of all, please read and try to comprehend my posts before you respond. Nowhere do I say that TC "didn't help Wade develop at all".

Second, you make up stuff and try to pass it off as "my logic".

Third, for the 1,000th time, I'm not "jumping to conclusions" in an effort to discredit TC. He never rubbed me at all, let alone the wrong way. I just happen to believe that if DWade had never met TC he'd still be an NBA superstar and that if TC had never met DWade he would not be at Indiana (and maybe not at Marquette)

Fourth, acting in a condescending manner towards opinions you either disagree with or misinterpret is unseemly. It might surprise you to know that I find your postings less than illuminating but I would never call you stupid even if the shoe fit.

[NavinRJohnson]

I just happen to believe that if DWade had never met TC he'd still be an NBA superstar and that if TC had never met DWade he would not be at Indiana (and maybe not at Marquette)

I completely agree with this.