Crean on Dan Patrick Radio Show

[Tribby]

Agreed 100%

McNeal is better because he is shooting better.

Why is he shooting better? Well, that could be Buzz's offense, it could be shot selection, it could just be that 'Rel is on a roll.

I'm encouraged by the performance of the team under Buzz... I'm just not sure somebody can say that they are "better" because of him. 

What is Buzz doing that is making them so much better?

He's a better guy? Probably.

Does that make the team better? Maybe.

I like Buzz a lot. I just don't think its so easy to compare his performance to the previous coach.

Different? Yes.

Better? Probably/maybe... but it's really tough to determine that type of stuff.

This is kind of where I'm coming from. I'm not saying Buzz definitely, absolutely deserves zero credit for where this team is at. I AM saying that it's an absurd leap of assumption to think he is definitely THE reason, and that there could be no other explanation for it.

As noted above, Jerel was playing better even before Buzz got here.

Wes is having his best season. That's awesome, but you guys act like you've never seen a player emerge in his senior season. I hate to just say it happens a lot, but... it happens a lot.

The ONLY halfway decent argument I've seen in this thread is that James is playing less selfishly, and that's been attributed not to Buzz being a good coach, but to his being a nice guy. Woopdyfreakindoo.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is kind of where I'm coming from. I'm not saying Buzz definitely, absolutely deserves zero credit for where this team is at. I AM saying that it's an absurd leap of assumption to think he is definitely THE reason, and that there could be no other explanation for it.

As noted above, Jerel was playing better even before Buzz got here.

Wes is having his best season. That's awesome, but you guys act like you've never seen a player emerge in his senior season. I hate to just say it happens a lot, but... it happens a lot.

The ONLY halfway decent argument I've seen in this thread is that James is playing less selfishly, and that's been attributed not to Buzz being a good coach, but to his being a nice guy. Woopdyfreakindoo.

Agreed.

I only bring up the "better guy" thing because I think some people find Buzz easier to root for than the previous administration, and this can sometimes cloud judgment.   

Truthfully, Buzz is easier to root for, but that doesn't mean he is "better"... just means he is more likable.

[Lennys Tap]

DJ went from a 1st round draft pick to honorable mention BEast in 3 years under TC. Despite the fact that he was/is a miserable shooter, he was always option 1or1/A in Crean's offense. When one of our 300 alleged plays or sets broke down (often), he was forced to take low percentage shots as the clock wound down. He is still an awful shooter but he is rarely dribbling 35' from the basket with 5 seconds on the shot clock. Anyone who argues that Buzz's offense doesn't do a better job of covering for DJ's weakness as a shooter hasn't been paying attention. It has nothing to do with nonsense like Buzz "being a better guy".(Though there's every indcation to suspect he is)

[warrior_jr]

So the best endorsement you can give of Buzz is that he's got a good personality?

No, its not about personality, its about attitude.  Attitude is everything in team sports, and if the coach has a bad attitude it will percolate.  And I didn't mean to say that this is the entire difference between the two coaches, I just think it is probably a factor, particularly w/ the difference in DJ's playing.  At the least a parallel, to say nothing of causality.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

DJ went from a 1st round draft pick to honorable mention BEast in 3 years under TC. Despite the fact that he was/is a miserable shooter, he was always option 1or1/A in Crean's offense. When one of our 300 alleged plays or sets broke down (often), he was forced to take low percentage shots as the clock wound down. He is still an awful shooter but he is rarely dribbling 35' from the basket with 5 seconds on the shot clock. Anyone who argues that Buzz's offense doesn't do a better job of covering for DJ's weakness as a shooter hasn't been paying attention. It has nothing to do with nonsense like Buzz "being a better guy".(Though there's every indcation to suspect he is)

I'm inclined to agree with you...

However, to play devils advocate... maybe DJ doesn't shoot as much because McNeal is shooting the lights out (thus he always has the green light and shoots a lot earlier in the clock) and Lazar and Wes have improved a lot. All of these things limit DJ's 35fters that everybody hates.

Now, you could argue that Buzz is making those guys better by using a more flexible offense (which I would probably agree with)...

But, you could also say that Buzz is able to loosen the offense up because he has McNeal is shooting so well that the offense often looks good when he just steps in and cans a 3pter (see Cincinnati). Also, Lazar is improved this year offensively (rebounding especially).

Maybe the offense is helping make the players better... but maybe the better players (improved from last year) are making the offense look good. Its easy to say one or the other... but it's harder to prove.

Here's a question for everybody: McNeal is shooting better this year but DJ is shooting worse from the line. What does Buzz get credit/blame for and why?

[MUWarrior06]

You can't sit there and honestly say that Crean doesn't give himself a big pat on the back every time MU wins.

1) He recruited these guys (just couldn't get them to play this well)
2) He hand-picked Buzz to be an assistant/recruiter. MU would have never hired Buzz had he not been on Crean's staff

However, I'm not going to fall into the Brett Favre woulda coulda shoulda trap and start comparing how this team would have played if TC stayed. We will NEVER know the answer. Different maturity with this team, different opponents, etc.

You can't say TC would be better or worse this year. All we know is that the players like playing for this team more (Wes being the only one I know of to have hinted at having a "blanket over him" the last 3 years... hint hint) and TC never got this kind of play out of any of his players not named D. Wade (who could credit his talent to just being a freak athlete, not so much to TC).

My opinion- in the last 3 years with this same group of guards TC never always won the games he was supposed to win. At this point MU typically had about 5-6 losses already. South Florida was the second game along with Dayton we should have won that we didn't. But, like Dayton, we just did not play well at all. I expect we would have lost a few more games in there with TC, just because he couldn't get it done. Hard to argue though because we will never know and no one can ever prove it. But history has shown TC could not win the games he was supposed to.

I think Buzz is a much better coach than TC ever was. He has already recruited a very impressive class for next year. I think Buzz is on equal if not greater levels compared to TC. Hopefully he'll stick around for a long time




And Tribby- Who is this "Golden Eagle" team you are referring to? I thought this was the Marquette Warriors message board????

[Tribby]

But history has shown TC could not win the games he was supposed to.

Strangest argument I've heard to date, coming immediately after Buzz lost a game to South Florida. I'm sorry, was that not a game Buzz was supposed to win? Or do you just give him a pass on that because it happens to fly directly in the face of the argument you were trying to make? 

And Tribby- Who is this "Golden Eagle" team you are referring to? I thought this was the Marquette Warriors message board????

Not all of us live in the past. Just most of you.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm inclined to agree with you...

However, to play devils advocate... maybe DJ doesn't shoot as much because McNeal is shooting the lights out (thus he always has the green light and shoots a lot earlier in the clock) and Lazar and Wes have improved a lot. All of these things limit DJ's 35fters that everybody hates.

Now, you could argue that Buzz is making those guys better by using a more flexible offense (which I would probably agree with)...

But, you could also say that Buzz is able to loosen the offense up because he has McNeal is shooting so well that the offense often looks good when he just steps in and cans a 3pter (see Cincinnati). Also, Lazar is improved this year offensively (rebounding especially).

Maybe the offense is helping make the players better... but maybe the better players (improved from last year) are making the offense look good. Its easy to say one or the other... but it's harder to prove.

Here's a question for everybody: McNeal is shooting better this year but DJ is shooting worse from the line. What does Buzz get credit/blame for and why?


2002 - Playing the devil's advocate is something the Jesuits encouraged in the Dark Ages when I attended MU. I'm glad it's still part of the program. I agree for the sake of discussion that this subject doesn't lend itself to any mathematical or scientific certainty. But we agree that Mcneal, DJ and Wes are thriving under Buzz in ways we did not see under TC. Is it possible that this is just the result of some "perfect storm" scenario? Possible, but when I see a significant change in results I look first to  changes in circumstances. Buzz is the the one major variable of change and therefore gets, for me, the lion's share of the credit or blame.

[Marquette84]

Anyone who says we would be the same team this year with TC has either not watched MU play for the last four years or has no clue about what they watched.

Here's my challenge.

Reverse the schedules.


Say that Buzz were sitting on a 17-6 record that included a neutral court loss to Duke, plus conference losses @UL, @WVU, @UConn, @ND, and UL at home.

Based on the comments around here, if anyone compared Buzz's hypthetical 17-6 with a hypothetical 20-3 record under Crean with losses to Dayton, Tennessee and @USF--and not having yet played UL, UConn, Syracuse, @VU, and @GU--what you you bet that there would be a MUCH stronger discussion of schedule strength?

We all know EXACTLY what the narrative would be:
--Crean hasn't played any of the tough teams--Syracuse, Pitt, UL, UConn
--20 wins is padded by cupcakes and the bottom dwellers of the Big East.
--ND, GU and UW are significantly worse than they were last season.
--Its a lot easier to beat WVU at home than in Morgantown
--etc. etc. etc.

I see no reason to think that our record would be any different this year if Crean were the coach--this year we're beating the same calibre of team we beat last season.  





  

[mu_hilltopper]

All I can say is .. Before I knew one iota about Buzz's ability, before I'd seen him coach a game, before I'd seen DJ, Wes, or McNeal play under Buzz, or see Butler, Otule or Fulce develop .. I had MU at 21-2 at this point in the season.  We're at 20-3.  (Damned USF game!).

What does that mean?  Either I am a preposterous optimist, or I figured McNeal, DJ, Wes, and Lazar were going to be pretty damn good, especially versus their first 23 opponents, regardless of who was at the helm.

Honestly, at this point, I think our record would be the same with either Crean or Buzz.   We would have won a few games differently, maybe won the USF game, maybe lost a different one.  Bottom line, I really don't think there'd have been that much difference.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002 - Playing the devil's advocate is something the Jesuits encouraged in the Dark Ages when I attended MU. I'm glad it's still part of the program. I agree for the sake of discussion that this subject doesn't lend itself to any mathematical or scientific certainty. But we agree that Mcneal, DJ and Wes are thriving under Buzz in ways we did not see under TC. Is it possible that this is just the result of some "perfect storm" scenario? Possible, but when I see a significant change in results I look first to  changes in circumstances. Buzz is the the one major variable of change and therefore gets, for me, the lion's share of the credit or blame.
[/quote]

Totally fair Lenny's, and a reasonable way to look at it. This is a good discussion.

I'm definitely not trying to take anything away from Buzz at all. He is the head coach, and he should get credit for being the head coach during all of these wins. As you stated, he's the major variable that has changed.

I just cringe a little bit when people seem to fall in love with him when they see the "offense flowing" or see "Wes reaching his potential".

It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg. Is the offense flowing better because McNeal is much better shooter, or is McNeal a better shooter because the offense is flowing better?

I could argue it both ways... but I can tell you that DJ isn't a better shooter this year (neither is Lazar), so maybe it's not something Buzz is putting in the water, but rather just McNeal turning into an awesome player and thus making Buzz's offense look great.

However, MU is getting to the line a TON, something they weren't able to do under TC... so I think Buzz does deserve a lot of credit for that (good coaching and game planning).

[Marquette84]

All I can say is .. Before I knew one iota about Buzz's ability, before I'd seen him coach a game, before I'd seen DJ, Wes, or McNeal play under Buzz, or see Butler, Otule or Fulce develop .. I had MU at 21-2 at this point in the season.  We're at 20-3.  (Damned USF game!).

What does that mean?  Either I am a preposterous optimist, or I figured McNeal, DJ, Wes, and Lazar were going to be pretty damn good, especially versus their first 23 opponents, regardless of who was at the helm.

Honestly, at this point, I think our record would be the same with either Crean or Buzz.   We would have won a few games differently, maybe won the USF game, maybe lost a different one.  Bottom line, I really don't think there'd have been that much difference.

Well, I guess we couldn't all have picked us to be 20-3 at this point!  

But your point is well taken--the consensus seems to be that we'd be right around 20 wins at this point of the season.

Maybe the issue is that people are more impressed by Buzz because they didn't think he'd actually deliver this type of performance---expectations for some were lowered, so that now Buzz is merely meeting the expectations that we would have had regardless of coach, well somehow he seems "better."

  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You can't sit there and honestly say that Crean doesn't give himself a big pat on the back every time MU wins.

1) He recruited these guys (just couldn't get them to play this well)
2) He hand-picked Buzz to be an assistant/recruiter. MU would have never hired Buzz had he not been on Crean's staff

However, I'm not going to fall into the Brett Favre woulda coulda shoulda trap and start comparing how this team would have played if TC stayed. We will NEVER know the answer. Different maturity with this team, different opponents, etc.

You can't say TC would be better or worse this year. All we know is that the players like playing for this team more (Wes being the only one I know of to have hinted at having a "blanket over him" the last 3 years... hint hint) and TC never got this kind of play out of any of his players not named D. Wade (who could credit his talent to just being a freak athlete, not so much to TC).

My opinion- in the last 3 years with this same group of guards TC never always won the games he was supposed to win. At this point MU typically had about 5-6 losses already. South Florida was the second game along with Dayton we should have won that we didn't. But, like Dayton, we just did not play well at all. I expect we would have lost a few more games in there with TC, just because he couldn't get it done. Hard to argue though because we will never know and no one can ever prove it. But history has shown TC could not win the games he was supposed to.

I think Buzz is a much better coach than TC ever was. He has already recruited a very impressive class for next year. I think Buzz is on equal if not greater levels compared to TC. Hopefully he'll stick around for a long time




And Tribby- Who is this "Golden Eagle" team you are referring to? I thought this was the Marquette Warriors message board????

Please read everything in red and tell me how that makes sense.

[Lennys Tap]

Last year MU finished 11-7 in a conference considerably weaker than this year's Big East. Five of those losses were blowouts of 14 points or more. Preseason expectations for 2007-08 and 2008-09 were similar. Given the much tougher nature of the conference, a 9-9 or 10-8 BEast record with 6-7 blowout losses would be the equivalent of last year. I'm expecting better, but I'll be the first to admit my eyes have been deceiving me if that's how we finish.

[Marquette84]

Last year MU finished 11-7 in a conference considerably weaker than this year's Big East. Five of those losses were blowouts of 14 points or more. Preseason expectations for 2007-08 and 2008-09 were similar. Given the much tougher nature of the conference, a 9-9 or 10-8 BEast record with 6-7 blowout losses would be the equivalent of last year. I'm expecting better, but I'll be the first to admit my eyes have been deceiving me if that's how we finish.

EXPECTATIONS were that the Big East would have improved.  REALITY isn't panning out:

--EXPECTATIONS:  ND would be just as strong as last year's 14-4 team.  REALITY:  7 game losing streak.
--EXPECTATIONS:  GU's 3 McDonald's AAs would keep them at the top the the hill.  REALITY:  4-7 in conf.
--EXPECTATIONS:  RU's Mike Rosario would make them competitive.  REALITY:  1-10 in conference
--EXPECTATIONS:  WVU and Syracuse would be competitive.  REALITY:   Both are hovering around .500, and moving closer to the bubble.

Right now the Big East is closer to seeing six bids rather than nine.  Nobody expected the collapse of ND and GU, and Syracuse is underperforming as well.

[Lennys Tap]

If you think the REALITY is that the Big East is no better this year than last you are in the minority, and that's putting it mildly. Jay Bilas says the BEast is number one and it's not even close. Last year the consensus was number four or five.


REALITY: ND returns virtually everyone from last year's 14-4 team. Their record this year is a reflection of the difficulty of the conference.
REALITY: Georgetown routed UConn on the road. Name a 4-7 team from any other conference capable of that.
REALITY: Who cares about Rutgers. Thay are irrelevent and always have been.
REALITY: WVU and Sracuse ARE competitive. To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

Finally, there is NO WAY  the BEast gets 6 teams in the tournament. I'm willing to wager at least 8. What say you, 84?

[g0ldmember42]

I am still trying to pry the knife that is stuck in my back from Crean leaving. however, I see karma in going through the worst season Indiana has had in history.

regarding the Buzz vs. Crean: Buzz is a much better in game coach than Crean. he is able to adapt to situations as they arise, something Crean really didn't have a talent in doing. he could coach a quick guard offense, but never had success at the half court game. I think this is the big difference in this season vs. past seasons. With the adaptations, each player is able to stand out where they are needed. They are able to play their game.

I am so glad we don't have car salesman Crean anymore. however, if Buzz comes up with an orangish glow all the sudden I will be worried.....