Question about Crean

[4everwarriors]

Crean will never win a national championship at IU and the reasons for which are obvious for those who have observed the man for the past 10 years now. Hey, but at the end of the day, he's a wealthy man. All Crean, all the time.

[ErickJD08]

I agree with Hayward.  Except he forgot to throw in MN in the Big Ten mix.  I think they will be pretty solid next year.  

I am confused about the recruiting thing.  People give him alot of credit for recruiting but he recruited Wade and coincidentally had a great class after the final four run.  Mark my words, we make a final four run this year, our 2010 class will be top 5.  So I believe some of the credit of the amigo class should go to Wade's triple double against UK.  Someone mentioned that Crean had a really good recruiting class coming in next year and I would disagree.  It is good but it should be better.  All the hoopla about Crean to IU should have created good hype.  I think the 2010 class will be weak after this terrible season, I would be shocked if it were better than 2009.  Not to mention that the recruiting in state is much tougher.  Now there is ND, Baylor and Purdue in the mix.  Toss in Indiana's neighbors, Illinois, OSU, and MSU, and lets not forget that Lexington and Louisville are not that far away.  

One more note, I am a ND football fan so I am in close contact with fans from big programs that are impatient.  IUi is all about Big Ten Championships and Tourney wins.  I hate the Big Ten and posters knock it but it has alot of potential.  Illinois has a great class next year, Tubby is working it, Purdue has an up and coming coach, Izzo is Izzo, and OSU produces a solid team every four years AND Michigan is trying to get in the mix.  Indiana's road will get tougher and tougher.  He'll get his four year but then it will turn into a "what have you done for me lately?" and it could get ugly.    

[StillAWarrior]

So I believe some of the credit of the amigo class should go to Wade's triple double against UK.

And Diener's game against Holy Cross.

Not to mention that the recruiting in state is much tougher.  Now there is ND, Baylor and Purdue in the mix.

Psst...Baylor is in Texas.  Valpo maybe?  Or Butler?

[ErickJD08]

And Diener's game against Holy Cross.


Psst...Baylor is in Texas.  Valpo maybe?  Or Butler?

I am a dumbass.. I meant Butler

[bma725]

I am confused about the recruiting thing.  People give him alot of credit for recruiting but he recruited Wade and coincidentally had a great class after the final four run.  So I believe some of the credit of the amigo class should go to Wade's triple double against UK.   

Actually the first class after the final four was pretty bad: Christian, Mason, Bell, James Matthews and Marcus Jackson.  The 2nd class after the final four was also pretty bad: Kinsella, Barro, Amoroso. 

What gave him the great class in 2005 wasn't the final four, it was the fact that MU needed a lot of players and had a lot of playing time available for the upcoming season.  The only significant players coming back for the Amigo's first season were Novak, Chapman and maybe Fitz.  Beyond that there was no competition for playing time, and further MU needed a ton of players(hence the 6 recruits in that class). 

Look at Crean's successful classes, they both came when he had a lot of playing time to give, in the class of 2000 and class of 2005.  He got essentially 5 top 100 players in those two classes, and 7 highly rated players when you consider that Sanders was a top Prep School guy and Lott a JUCO AA.  In his remaining seven years, he got only 6 additional top 100 players and 2 JUCO AA. 

Right now, Buzz is in that same situation.  Yes he's got a great first class, but it's coming at a time when the program is going to experience massive turnover.  4 starting spots will be available and there's no one currently on the team that would have an advantage over a big time recruit.  Any coach in the country should be able to sell that. 

Before we go annointing Buzz as a better recruiter, let's wait and see how he does when he doesn't have a lot of PT available.  Anyone can recruit when they have a ton of playing time to give, great recruiters are able to convince top 100 players to come sit on the bench.  We won't know if Buzz can do that until we see the 2010 class and beyond.


EDITED:  Totally forgot that Kinsella was a JUCO AA, so I had to update the numbers.

[nyg]

Is Aaron Bowen a good start for 2010?

[Marquette84]

 But, even I was always troubled by Crean's seeming inability to make halftime adjustments (or adjustments on the fly).  I'm not saying I knew what adjustments needed to be made, but I did notice that the team didn't seem to fix things in the second half.  

A number of games last year involved significant comebacks/adjustments by MU.  We were down early to Seton Hall and came back and won. The comeback at ND was huge--that game was well in hand for ND, but MU came back from a deep hole and very nearly took the game.  As I recall we were down big against Stanford and came back to tie in regulation.  Down at the half @Villanova and won.   That's just last season--and there were probably a few others.

Last year's team didn't always come back and win every game--but we haven't yet played the type of teams--UL, Syracuse, UConn --that we didn't come back on.  Its hard to tell whether we are any better or worse yet.  I don't know if UL or UConn gets us down by 15 whether we'll find it as easy to come back as we did on Providence.  I think probably not. 


 

[augoman]

In the end, though, we all need to be thankful to Crean.  He got the University to build the Al and got us into the Big East.  We now have facilities to recruit top players which may have never happened under another coach.



I wonder if you've ever heard of people like Bill Cords, Dick Strong, Kevin O'Neill, Jim Janz, or Dr. Bob Pavlik?  THEY built the AL, rejuvinated the bball program, hired Crean, put us in the Big East, etc.!  Because of them, Crean was able to recruit and coach as he did.  I almost forgot Fr. Wild- without his 'nod' none of this happens.

[The Lens]

Look at Crean's successful classes, they both came when he had a lot of playing time to give, in the class of 2000 and class of 2005.  He got essentially 5 top 100 players in those two classes, and 7 highly rated players when you consider that Sanders was a top Prep School guy and Lott a JUCO AA.  In his remaining seven years, he got only 5 additional top 100 players and 1 JUCO AA. 

Right now, Buzz is in that same situation. 

BMA (per usual) hit the nail on the head.  I'm taking a wait and see approach to Buzzard's recruiting, a lot of coaches can recruit when you're selling tons O' PT. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm still puzzled at the success of this team.  I thought for sure you couldn't win with just guards.   

[detroitwarrior]

The Crean haters and Crean lovers need to get in a room, hug it out and move on. Let's focus on the future and the new era of Marquette basketball. Hope and change and all that 

[mviale]

High expectations are a killer -its like the $200k consultant that promises this and that. Its all about perception.  He benefited from low expectations at MU.

[bma725]

Is Aaron Bowen a good start for 2010?

Depends on how you look at it.

You could look at it and say that since Bowen only one top 100 ranking lists him, and it's not one of the major ones, he's not going to be that good.  But if you look a bit further, that changes.  ESPN rates him at an 89 despite the fact that he was injured last summer.  If you look into the state by state rankings, he's very high on most lists.  Florida Prospects, probably the #1 source for info on Florida HS sports, lists him as a 5-Star player.   HoopScoop has him at the #8 position in the state for 2010, MiamiTropics has him at #4.  In fact, you could say that because of his injury and the fact that he didn't play AAU ball, he hasn't really been properly evaluated yet since most services don't look at HS games. 

Similarly, you can look at what other schools were involved with him.   You could look at it and say that he can't be that good since the only other school to offer him a scholarship was Jacksonville.  But on the other side of that, he was just starting to get interest from Miami, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Virginia Tech, Kansas State when he committed.  In fact Auburn and Miami are still going after him and have offered scholarships even though he committed to MU.  So you could say Buzz and his staff got in early on a kid that is about to blow up nationally.

About the only thing we can say for certain at this point is that Bowen is the best player in one of the best programs in the state of Florida.  Wolfson has won 14 district championships and sent almost 40 players to division 1 ball, they have a coach that knows how to develop players into high D1 prospects having sent guys to Florida, Alabama and other places in the past.  Bowen is the best player on a very talented team, which says something.

For the most part though, it's too early to tell.  He's going to play more AAU ball this summer, which will give a better picture of his true abilities.   I don't know why, but I've got a gut feeling this kid is going to be very good.

[77ncaachamps]

My question about Crean is: Considering his friendship with Sampson and current position, has he exchanged some honest pleasantries with KS about how he left the IU program in such a mess?

Regarding this talk about winning a title at IU is plausible, but I don't think it'll happen. Tubby's got a good gig going at MN and has the edge over Crean (rings). Illinois is starting to be a real program again but is a bad coach hire away from being mediocre. If Izzo stays, MSU will always be MSU. OSU will be perennially strong. Michigan is a rising program and will probably prove to be IU's main rival in the future as long as Beilein is there. Purdue will be going head-to-head for in-state recruits.

[tower912]

If Crean was as awful as the haters here say, we would have gone the way of DePaul.   We were not good when he arrived.   It could have gone either way.   The coach he replaced was trying to sell the idea that MU should be content with NIT appearances with the occasional NCAA foray.    If Crean had been the wrong hire for the time, if he couldn't recruit and promote the hell out of the program and coach a little, we would be where SJU/DePaul/Seton Hall are.    Of course he had his flaws.   Who doesn't?    I had issues with his in game adjustments and inability to land quality bigs.   But look 90 miles south on 94 and contemplate how easy it would be for us to end up like them.   

[StillAWarrior]

A number of games last year involved significant comebacks/adjustments by MU.  We were down early to Seton Hall and came back and won. The comeback at ND was huge--that game was well in hand for ND, but MU came back from a deep hole and very nearly took the game.  As I recall we were down big against Stanford and came back to tie in regulation.  Down at the half @Villanova and won.   That's just last season--and there were probably a few others.

Last year's team didn't always come back and win every game--but we haven't yet played the type of teams--UL, Syracuse, UConn --that we didn't come back on.  Its hard to tell whether we are any better or worse yet.  I don't know if UL or UConn gets us down by 15 whether we'll find it as easy to come back as we did on Providence.  I think probably not.

I shouldn't have used the word "always."  I should have said often instead.  Of the games you mentioned, I'd say that Villanova is your best example.  They played better after the half, caught up and took the lead.  In the ND game, we trailed by 10 at the half, and ND maintained pretty much the same margin until about 3:30 left, then Marquette made some stops and made a run.  I don't really see that as evidence of good halftime adjustments.  Maybe a good timeout, but not halftime.  Seton Hall is a bit of a wash.  We were down 11 early, but already had it to 7 at the half and continued.  Maybe there were halftime adjustments, maybe not, I don't recall.  I think your recollection of the Stanford game is a little off.  We were never down big -- their largest lead was only 7 (when it was 7-0).  MU led by at the half, but after halftime Stanford took the lead, then MU took the lead, etc.  I don't recall anything from that game that suggests that Crean made any effective halftime adjustments.

Look, all I'm sharing is my perception.  I felt like Crean didn't make good adjustments.  You mentioned a few games that you think suggest he did make good adjustments.  I'm not saying he never did, and I'm not saying MU never came from behind to win.  Thus far, I'm ecouraged by what I perceive as adjustments by Buzz during the halftime (even in games that we are leading and continue to lead).

Go Warriors!  Crush Georgetown!

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm still puzzled at the success of this team.  I thought for sure you couldn't win with just guards.   

Be careful now...as has been pointed out in many of the Curb your Enthusiasm threads, we haven't won anything yet (which of course is true).

[NavinRJohnson]

If Crean had been the wrong hire for the time, if he couldn't recruit and promote the hell out of the program and coach a little, we would be where SJU/DePaul/Seton Hall are...But look 90 miles south on 94 and contemplate how easy it would be for us to end up like them.   

I have not seen anybody say this. I think most almost universally agree he was exactly the right hire for the time. However, I think many also feel (perhaps including Crean himself) that he may have peaked out and it was a good time for a change. As good a job as he did, there certainly did appear to be room for improvement. Time will obviously tell if that is the case or not.

[downtown85]

I have not seen anybody say this. I think most almost universally agree he was exactly the right hire for the time. However, I think many also feel (perhaps including Crean himself) that he may have peaked out and it was a good time for a change. As good a job as he did, there certainly did appear to be room for improvement. Time will obviously tell if that is the case or not.

+1  I think that post summarizes my view and probably the majority of readers of this board.  I would like take a moment to thank Tom Crean for the following:

* reinvigorating the program
* recruiting Dwyane Wade
* taking us to the Final Four
* helping get us to the Big East
* recruiting the current class of seniors
* hiring Buzz Williams, and
* leaving when he did. 

Good luck at Indiana.  I think he is what they need right now. 

[tower912]

Maybe he had peaked, maybe in this day and age 8-10 years in one place is the limita before we see diminishing returns.   And I have never said I thought he was Tommy Naismith.   He certainly had flaws.   However, to refuse to give him any credit for where the program is now is just wrong.     Again, see DePaul, or even MU under Dukiet, to see what happens with the wrong coach in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

[mu-rara]

It seems like anyone who finds a flaw with TC is a hater and
anyone who says anything positive is a TC lover.

Most of us saw a guy with positives and negatives. 

He left the program in better shape than he found it.  He may have peaked at MU.  His game plans were usually sound.  He had trouble with in game adjustments.  He was hard to work for.  He was a great promoter of MU (and himself).  Overall, I'd say he was a net gain. 

I love what Buzz is doing.  Can't give him an overall grade yet.

[NavinRJohnson]

He certainly had flaws.   However, to refuse to give him any credit for where the program is now is just wrong.  

You are absolutely right. I just haven't seen anybody take that position.

[Tugg Speedman]

The basic theme here is Crean is a coach that can and will take IU to a level where they are consistently ranked and always finish in the top 3 of the B10.  However, it is believed this will not cut it at IU.  Then want to be at a higher level.  They want to be at Duke's level.  Many here question if Crean can go to that level?

The doubters are saying that Crean cannot go to that level because he did not show that ability at MU.

So, here is the uncomfortable question for MU fans ... Does IU STILL hold an inherent advantage over MU on the recuriting trail.  Is Crean correct in thinking that IU will give him a little more wind at his back to get the recruits to go to the next level that he could not at MU (save 2003)?

I agree with the argument about his lack of coaching abilities.  But how good a x and o guy are Coach K, Williams at UNC and Ben Howland at UCLA?  With the talent they bring in every year, a chimp could coach them to the sweet sixteen.  So, Crean's hoping his recruiting will compensate for his lack of coaching prowess (my description of Crean's objective).

You agree?

[Brewtown Andy]

So, here is the uncomfortable question for MU fans ... Does IU STILL hold an inherent advantage over MU on the recuriting trail.  Is Crean correct in thinking that IU will give him a little more wind at his back to get the recruits to go to the next level that he could not at MU (save 2003)?

You agree?

Arguably, for the next two years, he'll be able to recruit kids on the promise of PT.  Since the team will be lousy, he may as well get the younger kids the experience.

I'm not going to consider IU to have an advantage over MU until I see a 4 year recruit over 6'9" 230 who's averaging a double double for IU.

Also, does anyone else think one of Crean's reasons for leaving was that he didn't want to get roasted for failing to win big with this MU team?

[NavinRJohnson]

Yes he will have an inherent advantage at IU. He will recruit better at IU than he did at MU. Does that mean he will recruit at the level of Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc? I guess I have my doubts. That would appear to be the expectation however. Again, time will tell.