Great Article - Bob Knight, Dominic James

[SoCalstu09]

This article is on ESPN about the impending 880 for the General. It's a notable one because it talks about what his career would have been like had his uncontrollable anger not held him back.

Anyway, read away! Pay close attention to all the Indiana superstars that would have never been dispersed throughout the nation (Dominic James, Sean May, Greg Oden, Josh McRoberts!)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2705032

[SonofPianoMan]

thanks SoCal, that is really a great article and in reality not far from reality.  It could have been almost easy.  Could you imaging that Indiana bred team.  Damn.

[SoCalwarrior]

I don't know about that.  I'm not sure Bobby would have been forced out had Indiana been the Indiana of old.  No, he wasn't a has been, but Bobby was starting to lose his mojo at Indiana. 

[bma725]

I don't know about that.  I'm not sure Bobby would have been forced out had Indiana been the Indiana of old.  No, he wasn't a has been, but Bobby was starting to lose his mojo at Indiana. 

You must have missed what may be the crux of the "article".  Knight being confronted by administrators after the chair throwing incident and going into anger management.  So he never would have lost his mojo because he'd have taken care of all of the things that caused him to lose it. 

[Coach Norman Dale]

What is Pat Forde talking about?  Didn't Bob Knight enroll in Anger Management?  I am sure I saw a "documentary" about it starring Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson.

Also, I was at the chair throwing game, (the first college basketball game attended by former JS Marquette beat writer Lori Nickel), and, as I recall, Knight surprised the crowd twice that day -- the chair throwing incident was preceded by Knight appearing courtside at Assembly Hall for the first time without his then trademark plaid jacket!  So bring back the plaid and all is good!   

[SoCalwarrior]

I don't know about that.  I'm not sure Bobby would have been forced out had Indiana been the Indiana of old.  No, he wasn't a has been, but Bobby was starting to lose his mojo at Indiana. 

You must have missed what may be the crux of the "article".  Knight being confronted by administrators after the chair throwing incident and going into anger management.  So he never would have lost his mojo because he'd have taken care of all of the things that caused him to lose it. 

My point is, Knight always had anger problems, but that didn't determine whether or not Indiana was good or not. Even with anger managment, to say he would have had 1000 wins or Oden, James, McRoberts and May is silly. 

[Coach Norman Dale]

I also question the inclusion of Eric Montross and Jason Gardner.  Montross' decision was between UNC and the University of Michigan as he comes from a loooooong line of UM alums, and Gardner chose the desert climate due to his ashtma and/or allergies. 

Contrary to what Pat Forde presumes, Knight did not automatically get the top Indiana players, see also Glenn Robinson who went to Purdue.  So listing the best Indiana players as part of Forde's  scenario is a stretch.

Instead a lot of his success -- including at Texas Tech -- has been getting the most out of the talent he has.  Look back at the 1987 championship team.  A lot of role players working within a system, Knight's motion offense, a big part of which was geared to getting a slow-footed dead-aim shooter (Steve Alford) open.   That success was further enhanced by Knight adapting and adding two junior college players (Keith Smart and Dean Garrett) something he scoffed at others doing in previous years.

So the Indiana situation was changing well before Knight's departure.  I am a Bob Knight fan -- I think I discussed in the past on the Ahoya board the huge personal favor he did for me -- but I remember thinking when he was fired that while I would have preferred the end be different than it was, (and I hated to see Myles Brand win) that it was time for Knight to seek other challenges. 

One thing that cannot be disputed in Forde's story is the simple fact that Indiana fans would have appreciated, and I believe do appreciate, Knight's accomplishment a whole lot more than the TT fans are doing right now.

[bma725]

I also question the inclusion of Eric Montross and Jason Gardner.  Montross' decision was between UNC and the University of Michigan as he comes from a loooooong line of UM alums, and Gardner chose the desert climate due to his ashtma and/or allergies. 

Contrary to what Pat Forde presumes, Knight did not automatically get the top Indiana players, see also Glenn Robinson who went to Purdue.  So listing the best Indiana players as part of Forde's  scenario is a stretch.

Again, you're missing the biggest part of his article.  What actually happened is inconsequential, because what Forde is talking about is Knight making changes in his behavior and seeing the results of that on the court.  So the fact that the real Bob Knight didn't get Big Dog or Montross or Gardner doesn't mean anything, but Forde isn't talking about the real Bob Knight. 

[Coach Norman Dale]

With all due respect BMA, I am the 2nd person you have suggested did not understand the gist of Forde's article.  That is not true -- we all understand his *very simple* point that, in his opinion, if Knight had gone to anger management after the chair throwing incident then the world would have fallen at his feet.  That is Forde's opinion but there is no basis to support it.  It is a fairly tale to say that is all that stopped Knight from staying and continuing to thrive at Indiana.  The world, life, and human nature, including the thought processes of 17 and 18 year old high school basketball stars, are far more complicated than that.  I, and I think it is safe to guess the others who challenge his conclusions, simply do not buy Forde's suggestion that anger management is all that stood in Knight's path.

[bma725]

With all due respect BMA, I am the 2nd person you have suggested did not understand the gist of Forde's article.  That is not true -- we all understand his *very simple* point that, in his opinion, if Knight had gone to anger management after the chair throwing incident then the world would have fallen at his feet.  That is Forde's opinion but there is no basis to support it.  It is a fairly tale to say that is all that stopped Knight from staying and continuing to thrive at Indiana.  The world, life, and human nature, including the thought processes of 17 and 18 year old high school basketball stars, are far more complicated than that.  I, and I think it is safe to guess the others who challenge his conclusions, simply do not buy Forde's suggestion that anger management is all that stood in Knight's path.

You say its a fairy tale to think that Knights anger was the only thing holding him back, but since he never dealt with it, we could never possibly know for sure that it wasn't  the only thing holding him back.  Since we don't know that, we couldn't possibly know that he wouldn't have gotten Gardner or May or whomever had those changes happened.  You simply can't project what we know actually happened into the fantasy world Forde is trying to create.

You're right, there is no basis to support Forde's theory, but by the same token there's no basis to support your theory either.  To suggest that what happened in real life is what would have happened in the scenario that Forde is talking about just doesn't work.  You can talk about all the evidence you want or all the ways things actually played out, but those are all inconsequential because none of them have the same scenario as what Forde is talking about.

In a world where Bob Knight can control his anger and the effects that would have on his personality, there's no telling how he would then be changed as a coach and what effect that would have on recruits/players.  All the evidence from the real world where he can't control his anger doesn't mean anything in the fantasy world thats being discussed.

[Coach Norman Dale]

BMA, I read your last message and now I have a headache!  Have a Happy New Year!!!   8)

[SoCalstu09]

I think it's safe to say that James would be in Indiana had they wanted him. The night before his verbal to MU, he called up Mike Davis and Co. and said that this is their last chance to land him. They weren't interested and the rest is history.

Bobby would have wanted the runner up Mr. Basketball in Indiana, no doubt.

[herboturbo]

People keep bringing this rumored story up but hasn't James' AAU coach denied it repeatedly on other boards?   Something along the lines of Indiana not entering the picture until very late in the procedings and being dropped because of it?