Bitcoin

[Hards Alumni]

Yeah.  Crazy Run.  Talk about feeling bubbly.  I still won't touch it.

*pokes bear*

[TSmith34, Inc.]

*pokes bear*

Hards, you've obviously done extremely well on your investment.

For you, is it a speculative investment, or more than that? Because other that some very niche situations like overseas transactions (where you are giving up safety and regulation in return), I still don't see any use case other than grift and crime.

Convince me that I am wrong.

[Hards Alumni]

Hards, you've obviously done extremely well on your investment.

For you, is it a speculative investment, or more than that? Because other that some very niche situations like overseas transactions (where you are giving up safety and regulation in return), I still don't see any use case other than grift and crime.

Convince me that I am wrong.

Sure.  It is a store of value and a hedge against currency issued by nations.  The USD has experienced a loss of value of about 11% since the start of this year.  I also use it as a hedge against inflation.

Bitcoin itself is a deflationary asset.  Much like gold.  That is the best way to view it.  Except I don't need to send a metal via the post or store it in a vault.  I have mine on a small USB sized drive.  If I need to send any I can do it (fairly) easily.  I don't have to send a full Bitcoin either.  One of the best things about the asset is that it is easily divisible.  I can send 0.0000001 BTC to someone and the only fee I need pay is the transaction fee to the miners.  No one can shut down my wallet, I cannot overdraw my wallet, it can't be stolen, I don't need permission from someone to spend it should I choose to.  It's mine.

Saying Bitcoin is used in grift and crime is somewhat laughable considering the amount of financial crime that is committed worldwide with USD.  Every Bitcoin wallet and transaction is accounted for on the publicly available blockchain.  Which is also searchable. If I send you bitcoin today, that transaction will be available and searchable as long as bitcoin exists.

[Skatastrophy]

Saying Bitcoin is used in grift and crime is somewhat laughable considering the amount of financial crime that is committed worldwide with USD.  Every Bitcoin wallet and transaction is accounted for on the publicly available blockchain.  Which is also searchable. If I send you bitcoin today, that transaction will be available and searchable as long as bitcoin exists.

There's a reason that the current admin is all over cryptocurrency, and the crypto companies were big supporters of the current admin. The vibe of the overall ecosystem of those dudes is pro-stateless corporatocracy. That may be grift or it may be more problematic than that.

I've held some BTC and ETH for a while. Still, something ain't right.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Sure.  It is a store of value and a hedge against currency issued by nations.  The USD has experienced a loss of value of about 11% since the start of this year.  I also use it as a hedge against inflation.

Bitcoin itself is a deflationary asset.  Much like gold.  That is the best way to view it.  Except I don't need to send a metal via the post or store it in a vault.  I have mine on a small USB sized drive.  If I need to send any I can do it (fairly) easily.  I don't have to send a full Bitcoin either.  One of the best things about the asset is that it is easily divisible.  I can send 0.0000001 BTC to someone and the only fee I need pay is the transaction fee to the miners.  No one can shut down my wallet, I cannot overdraw my wallet, it can't be stolen, I don't need permission from someone to spend it should I choose to.  It's mine.

Saying Bitcoin is used in grift and crime is somewhat laughable considering the amount of financial crime that is committed worldwide with USD.  Every Bitcoin wallet and transaction is accounted for on the publicly available blockchain.  Which is also searchable. If I send you bitcoin today, that transaction will be available and searchable as long as bitcoin exists.

Yes, I should also have said store of value as one of its properties. That was my oversight.

But how about as an actual currency? I mean, I certainly take your point that it is infinitely easier than making payment via gold coin. But what advantages, if any, does it have over current payment methods? What problem does it solve?

[Hards Alumni]

There's a reason that the current admin is all over cryptocurrency, and the crypto companies were big supporters of the current admin. The vibe of the overall ecosystem of those dudes is pro-stateless corporatocracy. That may be grift or it may be more problematic than that.

I've held some BTC and ETH for a while. Still, something ain't right.

Oh, there are absolutely scammers and grifters across almost the entire crypto space.  Almost all of the 'coins' you can buy are purely speculative and without use.

I have consolidated all of my holdings to BTC and ETH because they're not just bullshit tokens with no use value other than to extract money from fools.  There are a couple out there that are probably worth having besides BTC and ETH, but they're not for me.

[MUBurrow]

There's a reason that the current admin is all over cryptocurrency, and the crypto companies were big supporters of the current admin. The vibe of the overall ecosystem of those dudes is pro-stateless corporatocracy. That may be grift or it may be more problematic than that.

I've held some BTC and ETH for a while. Still, something ain't right.

I'm by no means a fan of crypto broadly (for environmental reasons).  But I think this is as much due to the regulatory purgatory of crypto as it is anything inherent to crypto itself.  We're in the age of "just do quasi illegal crap until you get so big that no administration dare unravel your gains" and crypto has gotten to dance around in that space for like, over a decad now. Hell, 75% of the regulatory state (to the extent it still exists) still needs to call their grandkids to hook up their new printer.

[Hards Alumni]

Yes, I should also have said store of value as one of its properties. That was my oversight.

But how about as an actual currency? I mean, I certainly take your point that it is infinitely easier than making payment via gold coin. But what advantages, if any, does it have over current payment methods? What problem does it solve?

Durability:
Money needs to be able to withstand repeated use without significant deterioration.

Portability:
It should be easy for individuals to transport and transfer money.

Divisibility:
Money should be easily divided into smaller denominations to facilitate transactions of varying amounts.

Uniformity:
Each unit of money should be identical and interchangeable with other units.

Limited Supply:
Scarcity helps maintain the value of the currency.

Acceptability:
For something to function as money, it needs to be widely accepted as a means of payment for goods and services.

Store of Value:
It should be able to hold its value over time, allowing people to save and defer consumption.

Medium of Exchange:
Money facilitates the exchange of goods and services without the need for barter.

Unit of Account:
Money provides a standard measure of value, allowing for the comparison of prices.

If tomorrow I want to purchase a home in bitcoin I do not need to involve anyone.  The use case is that it works outside the modern banking system.  Certainly, that is not for everyone.  It's like cash, but I don't need to have a room full of bank notes (which could easily be stolen, or accidentally destroyed.) or a couple of bars of gold which I can't easily break apart, and are difficult to move because of their weight.  I can send the same value as either of these methods electronically and instantly anywhere in the world at any time of day.  The banks don't need to be open or approve myself as a sender or the recipient.

Again, the fact that it is not controlled by a government entity and is outside of the regulatory whims of nations is an important reason it exists.  The control of the asset is entirely in the hands of the users.  A truly democratized payment system.

[MUBurrow]

Again, the fact that it is not controlled by a government entity and is outside of the regulatory whims of nations is an important reason it exists.  The control of the asset is entirely in the hands of the users.  A truly democratized payment system.

I don't know if your evidence supports your conclusion here.  How is it not a truly anarchic payment system?

[Hards Alumni]

I don't know if your evidence supports your conclusion here.  How is it not a truly anarchic payment system?

If enough users agree the coin can be forked.

https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/bitcoin-fork-protocol-upgrades-blockchain-changes

Though I do take your point, it is probably a combination of both, and more anarchy than democracy.

[Shaka Shart]

Sure.  It is a store of value and a hedge against currency issued by nations.  The USD has experienced a loss of value of about 11% since the start of this year.  I also use it as a hedge against inflation.

Bitcoin itself is a deflationary asset.  Much like gold.  That is the best way to view it.  Except I don't need to send a metal via the post or store it in a vault.  I have mine on a small USB sized drive.  If I need to send any I can do it (fairly) easily.  I don't have to send a full Bitcoin either.  One of the best things about the asset is that it is easily divisible.  I can send 0.0000001 BTC to someone and the only fee I need pay is the transaction fee to the miners.  No one can shut down my wallet, I cannot overdraw my wallet, it can't be stolen, I don't need permission from someone to spend it should I choose to.  It's mine.

Saying Bitcoin is used in grift and crime is somewhat laughable considering the amount of financial crime that is committed worldwide with USD.  Every Bitcoin wallet and transaction is accounted for on the publicly available blockchain.  Which is also searchable. If I send you bitcoin today, that transaction will be available and searchable as long as bitcoin exists.

Prove it, send me one Bitcoin.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

If tomorrow I want to purchase a home in bitcoin I do not need to involve anyone.  The use case is that it works outside the modern banking system.  Certainly, that is not for everyone.

I think that is the essence right there. You are willing to trade the inconvenience(?) of having to wait a day to make a transaction through a bank, along with the safety and regulatory oversight, for speed and lack of corporate/government control.

To each their own. Personally I don't think that is a good trade off, even ignoring the high frictional costs.

Again, the fact that it is not controlled by a government entity and is outside of the regulatory whims of nations is an important reason it exists.  The control of the asset is entirely in the hands of the users.  A truly democratized payment system.

I dunno. The techbros all seem to want their own crypto, that they will control in their technocratic fiefdom they each imagine lording over. What is the exchange rate between Thielcoins and Sackscoins?

[Hards Alumni]

I think that is the essence right there. You are willing to trade the inconvenience(?) of having to wait a day to make a transaction through a bank, along with the safety and regulatory oversight, for speed and lack of corporate/government control.

To each their own. Personally I don't think that is a good trade off, even ignoring the high frictional costs.

I dunno. The techbros all seam to want their own crypto, that they will control in their technocratic fiefdom they each imagine lording over. What is the exchange rate between Thielcoins and Sackscoins?

Those guys are awful ghouls, eff em.

[Skatastrophy]

Those guys are awful ghouls, eff em.

All the major exchanges back them. It's wild. 

[Hards Alumni]

All the major exchanges back them. It's wild.

Yeah, I know.  But what ya gonna do.  WF, Chase, US Bank, etc... they're not run by great people either.

If my ethics got in the way of everything I purchased I'd probably be a hermit in a box on the street.

[Shaka Shart]

Yeah, I know.  But what ya gonna do.  WF, Chase, US Bank, etc... they're not run by great people either.

If my ethics got in the way of everything I purchased I'd probably be a hermit in a box on the street.

You'd have a lot of unfilled cavities

[Skatastrophy]

Yeah, I know.  But what ya gonna do.  WF, Chase, US Bank, etc... they're not run by great people either.

If my ethics got in the way of everything I purchased I'd probably be a hermit in a box on the street.

Yeah same. I've used coinbase for stuff and after their continued sponsorships of the current regime I looked into other alternatives. Sadly those businesses are all in the same nutjob boat. 

If you find a non-toxic alternative lmk

[rocky_warrior]

I have endless ways to send money instantly (credit card, zelle, venmo, etc).  If I want to invest money I buy index funds.

At this point most crypto is just an energy ponzi scheme.  Prices have to keep going up to support the infrastructure.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

[Hards Alumni]

I have endless ways to send money instantly (credit card, zelle, venmo, etc).  If I want to invest money I buy index funds.

At this point most crypto is just an energy ponzi scheme.  Prices have to keep going up to support the infrastructure.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Yes, you do.