Jamal's minutes

[MU82]

In a couple other threads, discussions have begun about whether or not Jamal Cain was under-utilized (and therefore mishandled) by Wojo during previous seasons, and whether that contributed to him not developing into a better player sooner.

Given that he just saved our bacon against Georgetown, I thought the discussion merited its own thread ...

IMHO, the allocation of Jamal's minutes has been about right given his strengths, limitations and contributions.

These decisions aren't made in a vacuum. In earlier years, he would have had to have gotten either Sacar's minutes, Joey's minutes, Sam's minutes or Bailey's minutes, and for the most part, those guys seemed ready to contribute more of what the team needed at the time.

Given the way Jamal finished as a freshman, we all wanted more. And Wojo gave him 15-18-16-15-15 minutes in the games to open his soph season (2018-19). But he clearly was not playing as well as those ahead of him, and he lost considerable PT after that.

Coincidentally or not, the decrease in Jamal's PT that season began in the exact game that Marquette beat Louisville to begin the 20-2 run that made us a top-10 team. During that 3-month stretch, I sure don't remember many Scoopers saying, "We're having a hell of a season and we've got a chance to be a top-2 or top-3 seed ... but only if Jamal were playing more."

Now, last season, whether or not Bailey should have gotten more PT is a more legit discussion IMHO.

Still, with Bailey getting most of the minutes, we were 17-6 overall and 7-4 in the BEast after a decisive National Marquette Day victory over a top-20 Butler team; Bailey went for 16-8 on 6-for-8 shooting (4-5 from 3) in that game. At that point, we were ranked No. 18 after winning 6 of 7. So while it's easy today to say, "Jamal should have been playing more," the fact is that we were an ascending team with Bailey getting most of the PT.

As the season wore on and Bailey struggled (as did the entire team), Wojo went with the hot hand more often than not. In the 7 games we played after that Butler win, Cain got more PT than Bailey in 4 of them. One certainly could make a strong argument that Cain deserved even more than that (or at least that Bailey deserved less).

But really, would Cain playing 30 mpg (rather than the 20 mpg he got) during last season's final month have translated to him being significantly better than he is now? I think that's a stretch, but I respect that some might disagree.

My main disappointment regarding Jamal is that he hasn't improved his MTM defense and, especially, his handle. Some of that obviously falls on him, but anytime a player doesn't develop as strongly or quickly as we all hope, much falls on the coaching staff.

Specifically, given that Wojo and most of his assistants are/were PGs, it's disappointing that, 4 years in, Jamal's handle is still quite bad.

Of course, some guys simply have ceilings to how well they can do certain things. I mean, I saw Cheatham play a few times last season and he STILL couldn't (or wouldn't) go right -- and he had 3 different college coaching staffs working with him over 5 years.

Obviously, it's impossible to know how good Jamal would or wouldn't be now had he gotten more PT. But to say in January 2021 that he should have played more while we were kicking butt in 2018-19 -- and even while we were moving up in the rankings last season -- seems like a lot of 20/20 hindsight.

But hey, we're good at that here on Scoop. And I include myself in the "we."

[vogue65]

In a couple other threads, discussions have begun about whether or not Jamal Cain was under-utilized (and therefore mishandled) by Wojo during previous seasons, and whether that contributed to him not developing into a better player sooner.

Given that he just saved our bacon against Georgetown, I thought the discussion merited its own thread ...

IMHO, the allocation of Jamal's minutes has been about right given his strengths, limitations and contributions.

These decisions aren't made in a vacuum. In earlier years, he would have had to have gotten either Sacar's minutes, Joey's minutes, Sam's minutes or Bailey's minutes, and for the most part, those guys seemed ready to contribute more of what the team needed at the time.

Given the way Jamal finished as a freshman, we all wanted more. And Wojo gave him 15-18-16-15-15 minutes in the games to open his soph season (2018-19). But he clearly was not playing as well as those ahead of him, and he lost considerable PT after that.

Coincidentally or not, the decrease in Jamal's PT that season began in the exact game that Marquette beat Louisville to begin the 20-2 run that made us a top-10 team. During that 3-month stretch, I sure don't remember many Scoopers saying, "We're having a hell of a season and we've got a chance to be a top-2 or top-3 seed ... but only if Jamal were playing more."

Now, last season, whether or not Bailey should have gotten more PT is a more legit discussion IMHO.

Still, with Bailey getting most of the minutes, we were 17-6 overall and 7-4 in the BEast after a decisive National Marquette Day victory over a top-20 Butler team; Bailey went for 16-8 on 6-for-8 shooting (4-5 from 3) in that game. At that point, we were ranked No. 18 after winning 6 of 7. So while it's easy today to say, "Jamal should have been playing more," the fact is that we were an ascending team with Bailey getting most of the PT.

As the season wore on and Bailey struggled (as did the entire team), Wojo went with the hot hand more often than not. In the 7 games we played after that Butler win, Cain got more PT than Bailey in 4 of them. One certainly could make a strong argument that Cain deserved even more than that (or at least that Bailey deserved less).

But really, would Cain playing 30 mpg (rather than the 20 mpg he got) during last season's final month have translated to him being significantly better than he is now? I think that's a stretch, but I respect that some might disagree.

My main disappointment regarding Jamal is that he hasn't improved his MTM defense and, especially, his handle. Some of that obviously falls on him, but anytime a player doesn't develop as strongly or quickly as we all hope, much falls on the coaching staff.

Specifically, given that Wojo and most of his assistants are/were PGs, it's disappointing that, 4 years in, Jamal's handle is still quite bad.

Of course, some guys simply have ceilings to how well they can do certain things. I mean, I saw Cheatham play a few times last season and he STILL couldn't (or wouldn't) go right -- and he had 3 different college coaching staffs working with him over 5 years.

Obviously, it's impossible to know how good Jamal would or wouldn't be now had he gotten more PT. But to say in January 2021 that he should have played more while we were kicking butt in 2018-19 -- and even while we were moving up in the rankings last season -- seems like a lot of 20/20 hindsight.

But hey, we're good at that here on Scoop. And I include myself in the "we."

Doesn't look like you ever did management by briefing.
Bottom line,  NYC thinking, what have you done for me lately?

[PGsHeroes32]

My big thing for a while as been when Jamal is playing we gotta look for him more.

Now some of that you can only do so much when a guy struggles to dribble on his own. But Jamal can really score at all levels. Hes got a solid mid range, hes athletic driving when he does hold the ball, he can pop 3s and he has great athleticism.

We should be getting him at minimum 5 corner 3 looks a game. And try to make the inbounds lobs and ally oop plays a regular half court set. Get creative with it. Backdoor cuts are a good way to use him too.

Sometimes I feel we do too much random dribbling and passing around for 20 seconds when we could be looking to get a guy like Jamal creative looks.

[GooooMarquette]

My big thing for a while as been when Jamal is playing we gotta look for him more.

Now some of that you can only do so much when a guy struggles to dribble on his own. But Jamal can really score at all levels. Hes got a solid mid range, hes athletic driving when he does hold the ball, he can pop 3s and he has great athleticism.

We should be getting him at minimum 5 corner 3 looks a game. And try to make the inbounds lobs and ally oop plays a regular half court set. Get creative with it. Backdoor cuts are a good way to use him too.

Sometimes I feel we do too much random dribbling and passing around for 20 seconds when we could be looking to get a guy like Jamal creative looks.

Agree.

Regarding the underlined, it has long been a source of frustration that our PG head coach can't figure out a way to create better flow in the offense. I get that we didn't have a 'true PG' for a few seasons, but now with DJ I thought that would change. Hopefully as the season moves on....

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm firmly in the camp that Jamal has gotten pretty much all the minutes that he has earned in his time at MU. I'm really happy Jamal has taken a big step forward this year and hope he continues his ascent, but his progression is about what you'd expect from a 3-star, 145th ranked prospect.

[FrennA]

You'll all see how I hardly ever post because I hate getting stuck typing response post after response post.  However, last year I couldn't help myself as it pertained to Cain.  I was so frustrated on how we underutilized him in years past.  As a matter of fact, I believe I even started my own Topic which was a first for me.  Anyways, he brings a lot to the table.  I know when games are tight and rebounds are like gold, we NEED Cain in there.  I'm glad he's seeing more playing time.  However my frustration continues.  As I complained last year, his "handle" or his excessive T.O's are not the issue, though people keeping posting that it is, which is how they validated his lack of PT.  If it is, please show me the stats where he leads the team in T.O's. and I'll shut up.  But from the stats I've seen so far this year, of the 11 players logging time, Cain averages the LEAST amount of T.O's.  He averages .9 T.O's at 29.1 mins played per game.  That is the lowest on the team.  Let me save you some time and mention that I am aware that he doesn't dribble as much as McEwen, DJ, etc. thus SHOULD not be as susceptible to T.O's.  But that is just it.  Great!!!!!  I didn't/don't like watching the likes of Howard, Koby, DJ, etc. run around dribbling like their heads were cut off.  It's not a dribbling contest.  Also, do you even remember the past 2 years how when the game came down to the last possession, Howard turned it over almost every time? Don't get me wrong, I liked Howard but if Cain gets crucified for T.O's I think there are few people that should be before Cain.       

In an earlier post, someone mentioned Villanova.  That is a great example.  I think Cain would have for sure succeeded in that program.  My reasoning is because at VU, they don't have players dribbling sideline to sideline without purpose.  They utilize ball movement by way of passing to get the defense out of position.  The last time I checked, the ball moves faster when passed rather than dribbled.

In summary, I'll admit that our team is terrible at ball control and we turn it over way too often.  What's even worse is I don't expect it to get better when our coach (at least in years past) and some of our fan base seem to point the blame at the one player doing the best in that particular category.  Say what you will, but the numbers don't lie.

In Wojo's defense, maybe he realized that Cain is not the issue when it comes to T.O's which is why he is playing him more. 

I apologize in advance for the likelihood of me not responding to any counter reply's to my post which I'll be sure to read at my next appointment with the crapper.  I can assure you that any said replies will be met with my imagining me punching you in the face at Turner's, sending the other bar patrons into a frenzied chant of "You're a dumb dumb" *Stomp, clap.....Stomp clap.  Stomp stomp clap.  Stomp clap!*  "A big dumb dumb".  *Stomp, clap.....Stomp clap.  Stomp stomp clap.  Stomp clap!*  Then repeat 2 - 3 times.  Then I look you in the eyes and say....."Looks like the only T.O here is the crowd 'turning' on you.  Ha, ha ha ha."  Then the sound of the flush will snap me out of it and I'll go on my merry way. 

[Its DJOver]

Jamal's TOs haven't been a problem this year.  The issue is, that here, once something is a problem once, people assume it is always a problem.  Jamal's first three years he had an average TO% north of 20, that's very bad.  So far this year, he's at 8.5, but he already has the label of a TO machine here.  It's the same problem that Theo has regarding his "fouling issue".  I hope Jamal can continue to keep his TO% down, while hopefully getting a little bump in usage, and a little more sustained consistency.  He is another player that has developed nicely under the staff.

[MUCam]

You'll all see how I hardly ever post because I hate getting stuck typing response post after response post.  However, last year I couldn't help myself as it pertained to Cain.  I was so frustrated on how we underutilized him in years past.  As a matter of fact, I believe I even started my own Topic which was a first for me.  Anyways, he brings a lot to the table.  I know when games are tight and rebounds are like gold, we NEED Cain in there.  I'm glad he's seeing more playing time.  However my frustration continues.  As I complained last year, his "handle" or his excessive T.O's are not the issue, though people keeping posting that it is, which is how they validated his lack of PT.  If it is, please show me the stats where he leads the team in T.O's. and I'll shut up.  But from the stats I've seen so far this year, of the 11 players logging time, Cain averages the LEAST amount of T.O's.  He averages .9 T.O's at 29.1 mins played per game.  That is the lowest on the team.  Let me save you some time and mention that I am aware that he doesn't dribble as much as McEwen, DJ, etc. thus SHOULD not be as susceptible to T.O's.  But that is just it.  Great!!!!!  I didn't/don't like watching the likes of Howard, Koby, DJ, etc. run around dribbling like their heads were cut off.  It's not a dribbling contest.  Also, do you even remember the past 2 years how when the game came down to the last possession, Howard turned it over almost every time? Don't get me wrong, I liked Howard but if Cain gets crucified for T.O's I think there are few people that should be before Cain.       

In an earlier post, someone mentioned Villanova.  That is a great example.  I think Cain would have for sure succeeded in that program.  My reasoning is because at VU, they don't have players dribbling sideline to sideline without purpose.  They utilize ball movement by way of passing to get the defense out of position.  The last time I checked, the ball moves faster when passed rather than dribbled.

In summary, I'll admit that our team is terrible at ball control and we turn it over way too often.  What's even worse is I don't expect it to get better when our coach (at least in years past) and some of our fan base seem to point the blame at the one player doing the best in that particular category.  Say what you will, but the numbers don't lie.

In Wojo's defense, maybe he realized that Cain is not the issue when it comes to T.O's which is why he is playing him more. 

I apologize in advance for the likelihood of me not responding to any counter reply's to my post which I'll be sure to read at my next appointment with the crapper.  I can assure you that any said replies will be met with my imagining me punching you in the face at Turner's, sending the other bar patrons into a frenzied chant of "You're a dumb dumb" *Stomp, clap.....Stomp clap.  Stomp stomp clap.  Stomp clap!*  "A big dumb dumb".  *Stomp, clap.....Stomp clap.  Stomp stomp clap.  Stomp clap!*  Then repeat 2 - 3 times.  Then I look you in the eyes and say....."Looks like the only T.O here is the crowd 'turning' on you.  Ha, ha ha ha."  Then the sound of the flush will snap me out of it and I'll go on my merry way.

So...

You had me at you look me in the eyes....

♥️ 

[Shooter McGavin]

Jamal's TOs haven't been a problem this year.  The issue is, that here, once something is a problem once, people assume it is always a problem.  Jamal's first three years he had an average TO% north of 20, that's very bad.  So far this year, he's at 8.5, but he already has the label of a TO machine here.  It's the same problem that Theo has regarding his "fouling issue".  I hope Jamal can continue to keep his TO% down, while hopefully getting a little bump in usage, and a little more sustained consistency.  He is another player that has developed nicely under the staff.

Agreed. 

[bilsu]

Not by a lot, but Bailey was the better player.