Two year honeymoon is over

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.

I'm all about respecting the process, but even I think 8-10 years is excessive. If we have no kind of postseason after year 4, I'm ready to move on (barring extreme circumstances)

[El Duderino]

All I know is that giving up 90 points a game will not get us many wins.

I'm pretty confident that Wojo can remain a quality recruiter and that's a major factor in being able to have success in any college sport.

Whether he can get those players to play sound offense and defense going forward is something i'm uncertain about.

One thing being said a lot in this thread though which i do think is overstated is that the team won 20 games. Given how weak the schedule was, that was about as hollow of a 20 win season as it gets for a program not in a terrible mid-major conference.

[BM1090]

I'm all about respecting the process, but even I think 8-10 years is excessive. If we have no kind of postseason after year 4, I'm ready to move on (barring extreme circumstances)

For me, I would say no NCAA tournament by year 5. I'd prefer continued progress (even minimal) resulting in a NCAA tournament in year 5 over 3 straight NIT bids the next three years.

And yes, I understand if we show progress over the next 3 years we'll likely make an NIT before the NCAA tournament.

[muwar2003]

If we aren't in the nit after next year and the big dance after year 4, we should start to wonder.   

[NorthernDancerColt]

If we aren't in the nit after next year and the big dance after year 4, we should start to wonder.

Part of me wishes the thread would go away...I really feel Wojo is gonna make so much of Scoop eat crow, and I want him as our program's steward for a long, long time.

  Yet, the other side is that Wojo wants this, he wants to be dogged and questioned, to a point. He loves the high standards of our program and its fans. And I think many of our past coaches would agree that, Scoop critics notwithstanding,  we as a fanbase are a pretty rational, patient bunch. In this sense, it's good NOT to be Kentucky.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

MU isn't a school that can get a big name coach, period.  And I'm not talking about just 'meeting expectations of the fans'.  I'm talking about being afraid of raising them.

As for the 8-10 years, well, even Chicos doesn't go that far.

Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach. Shaka is a big name coach. Howland is a big name coach.

Who makes the list of big name coaches we can't get?

[tower912]

Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach.

Wojo's name is bigger than most. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach. Shaka is a big name coach. Howland is a big name coach.

Who makes the list of big name coaches we can't get?

Wojo's name is bigger than his experience - but would agree there is name recognition.  None of those other coaches accepted a job at MU.  Prior to Wojo, our coaches were Williams, Crean and Deane.  I think its pretty fair to say we have not landed big name coaches.

The day we land Shaka or someone like Sean/Archie Miller then things have changed.

[nathanziarek]

The day we land Shaka or someone like Sean/Archie Miller then things have changed.

Wait, you don't think we could have landed Archie? Dayton's coach?

I clearly don't know anything about how the whole coach search works, but it seems to me the administration got the guy they wanted, not the one they were stuck with (excluding Shaka--think that full story will ever be known?).

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Wait, you don't think we could have landed Archie? Dayton's coach?

I clearly don't know anything about how the whole coach search works, but it seems to me the administration got the guy they wanted, not the one they were stuck with (excluding Shaka--think that full story will ever be known?).

No I don't think we could have landed Archie and my guess is he declined to be considered because he is waiting for his dream opportunity -- like his brother did.

[brewcity77]

When Buzz left, I made a short list of candidates from the assistant ranks. I left Wojo's name off because I thought he was unattai'nable. When Marquette landed him, I was ecstatic. He is definitely a big name coach.

Coaches either come from one of three sources. First, you get the established coach at another school. That would have been Cuonzo. Second, you get an unemployed veteran head coach. That was someone like Howland. The downside is that they likely lost their job for a reason. Third, you go for an assistant who hasn't had the chance to prove themselves in that role yet. I truly think Wojo, at least on paper, was the best possible candidate in the country from the third category.

As far as expectations...NIT next year, NCAAs in 2018, sustai'nable success in 2019 and beyond, making the tournament 75% of the time and making the occasional deep run. If there's no postseason next year, I do think the seat starts to get warm, but I still think he gets through 2017-18 regardless, and if we end up a year behind that schedule, I still think he's safe enough.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Brew - I agree -- and think we did very well.

Your first category though has two sub categories -- the types that bounce from P5 program to another (i.e. Martin) and the one's who are on the rise -- at a sub-par program that is ready for the big job (Archie at Dayton | Sean at Xavier | Shaka at VCU). 

I would like to be in the running for that type of coach some day - likely wishful thinking.  Still risk in any hire, but less than the assistant route.

[mu03eng]

I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.

And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.

I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.

I agree with all that...they thought they had a really good shot at Lee....if they land him we're dancing as I think we beat Belmont, DePaul and Creighton for sure. And I'm fine with the moves Wojo made, just pointing out how it played with John Q Public who only knows we landed a NBA lottery pick player and then sees us sitting at home again in March. Don't sell the general public short, they can be incredibly idiotic

[mu03eng]

I agree if you are using the fringe/'fire wojo' posters as the average fan.  Personally I think most are left with a mild disappointment this year and questions about 'how long will this rebuild take' because we are losing our best player.

Realistically though his seat is cool and most, while not feeling super confident yet, are willing to give him time.  The admin is thrilled if we go by their extension as a guide.  The reality is that Wojo has somewhere between 4-5 years to prove himself regardless of what happened this year.  He needs to show progress.

HE is only positive in my opinion.  Spinning it into a negative is really tough in my mind when he did nothing but make the team better.  Turning it into a negative is interesting academically -- I just don't see it.

I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."

Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.

For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.

[Groin_pull]

I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."

Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.

For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.

Solid insight. It's clear that MU hoops is struggling to capture the attention of students and Milwaukee sports fans. All the empty seats confirm that.

[BM1090]

Solid insight. It's clear that MU hoops is struggling to capture the attention of students and Milwaukee sports fans. All the empty seats confirm that.

I do think it's important to remember that Marquette is a pretty small school playing in a big arena. Attendance is down, and it's a cause for concern, but Marquette has what, 2K graduates per year? It's tough for a school that size to consistently fill a 19K seat arena.

Relative to student/alumni base, Marquette's attendance is fantastic compared to similar schools.

[Groin_pull]

I do think it's important to remember that Marquette is a pretty small school playing in a big arena. Attendance is down, and it's a cause for concern, but Marquette has what, 2K graduates per year? It's tough for a school that size to consistently fill a 19K seat arena.

Relative to student/alumni base, Marquette's attendance is fantastic compared to similar schools.

Good point. State schools, like those in the Big 10, churn out thousands and thousands of grads every year.

[mu03eng]

Good point. State schools, like those in the Big 10, churn out thousands and thousands of grads every year.

And state schools have state funding, which  is why its critical that a high percentage of alumni be "attached" to the university. Traditionally that attachment has been a successful basketball program.

It's not doom and gloom, National Marquette shows there is still a ton of enthusiasm but next year, if the team isn't successful that would mean an entire class of students hasn't seen a successful season and that erodes long term attachment

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."

Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.

For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.

I am glad to hear this.  Personally I think next year is really important for Wojo.  I am ok with people making sure that the urgency is felt.

[MUMonster03]

I feel like we all need to step back from the ledge a little bit. A coach missing the tournament and struggling his first two years as a head coach at any Division 1 school is not unheard of. Regardless of whether it was Wojo not being able to hold on to recruits or Buzz leaving the program with most of the talent he had coming in the cupboard was pretty bare. Wojo inherited a 17-15 squad and has gone 33-32 with no tournaments, here is a look at how some pretty successful coaches have done early on.

Calhoun inherited a 12-16 UConn, went 29-33 first two, made tournament in year 4, won championship in year 13 (was 31-18 in first two years at Northeastern)
Boheim inherited a 20-9 Syracuse, went 48-10 first two, made S16 in year 1, won championship in year 27 (first coaching job, inherited tournament team)
Coach K inherited 24-9 Duke, went 27-30 first two, made tournament in year 4, won championship in year 11 (was 34-22 in first two years at Army)
Roy Williams inherited 27-11 NC Kansas, went 49-17 first two, made tournament in year 2 (ineligible in year 1) (first job, won championship in 17th year as coach)
Knight inherited 17-7 Indiana, went 39-14 first two, made tournament in year 2, won championship in year 5 (was 31-16 in first two years at Army)
Self inherited 23-10 Tulsa, went 42-22 first two, made tournament year 2 (Illinois was 22-10 befor he came, 16-38 in first two years at Oral Roberts)
Al inherited 5-21 Marquette, went 22-30 first two, made tournament year 4, won championship in year 13 (was 25-5 first two years at Belmont Abbey)
Crean inherited 14-15 Marquette, went 30-28 first two, made tournament in year 3
JT3 inherited 13-14 Georgetown, went 42-25 first two, made tournament in year 2 (was 32-23 first two years at Princeton)
Jay Wright inherited 18-13 Villanova, went 34-29 first two, made tournament in year 4 (was 19-36 first two years at Hofstra)
Calipari went 27-32 his first two years, made tournament in year 4, won championship in 20th year
Pitino went 38-18 his first two year, made tournament in year 5, won championship in 14th year

Most of these guys, besides Williams and Boeheim, either started at small schools before getting a big program, or had no expectations when they arrived.
If Wojo is not making tournaments consistently by year 4 or 5 then its time to panic. But right now he is going through the early struggles of most younf coaches asked to inherit a program that was in turmoil and/or had major player turnover.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.

And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.

I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.

Agree on all points. All coaches are trying to win TODAY. To that end both Wojo and Buzz have pursued grad transfers, jucos and one and dones. You rebuild on the run, and Buzz is really good at it. Wojo is a work in progress. But please - no more BS about "quick fix" and "long term". Any decent coach is quick fix and concentrates most of his efforts on this year and what's left on next.