UNLV's Derrick Jones ACT "canceled" ruled ineligible

[mu03eng]

I understand the argument, but I don't agree. Schools have too much motivation to cheat and without a third party to hold them accountable they could easily make scandals disappear. You say they absorb all the risk for admitting a kid who can't hack it in college. What risk is there? They would be in charge of holding themselves accountable. Just give themselves a slap on the wrist and say its taken care of. Without the NCAA, there is zero risk for universities to admit whoever they want.

I'm saying the NCAA get out of academic eligibility to get into college.....once they are in college they have to stay eligible by meeting NCAA academic standards as they do now.

That would get rid of this clearing house nonsense and ACT/SAT testing allegations. The risk for the schools is they are admitting kids that can't hack it academically in school and become ineligible.

As an example, if Derrick Rose cheated on his ACT to get into Memphis and had all F's in high school, why should the NCAA care? That would indicate to me that Derrick couldn't handle school and won't succeed at the university level so I shouldn't admit him. If I take him anyway and he flunks out of school that impacts my APR and if I do it enough with bad students I lose post season play like UConn did. If Derrick Rose gets admitted and succeeds in college academically, great thats an outcome to encourage.

Basically, it boils down to it being much more efficient to guard the exit than to guard both the entrance and the exit.

[bilsu]

Why should NCAA care?
Because basketball programs will cheat

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

As an example, if Derrick Rose cheated on his ACT to get into Memphis and had all F's in high school, why should the NCAA care? That would indicate to me that Derrick couldn't handle school and won't succeed at the university level so I shouldn't admit him. If I take him anyway and he flunks out of school that impacts my APR and if I do it enough with bad students I lose post season play like UConn did. If Derrick Rose gets admitted and succeeds in college academically, great thats an outcome to encourage.

That leaves schools too much ability to hide kids in college. One and done players can take study halls and gyms for a year. Some schools will even employ fake classes or doctoring grades to hide these kids.

Theres too much motivation to cheat. Schools need the ncaa to keep them in check

[mu03eng]

That leaves schools too much ability to hide kids in college. One and done players can take study halls and gyms for a year. Some schools will even employ fake classes or doctoring grades to hide these kids.

Theres too much motivation to cheat. Schools need the ncaa to keep them in check

If a player leaves after a year and doesn't take any classes that impacts the APR, right? They can do that now with players, correct? The only change I'm saying is the NCAA doesn't care about high school academics....once the kid is in college, then all the current rules apply.

So a high school kid gets into a college, fails miserably in class he is then ineligible based on his grades and his leaving school impacts the APR...all things currently monitored. The only difference is the NCAA didn't care if his ACT was 2 or 22.

[dgies9156]

Reading the story is disturbing.  There's no allegation of any kind of malfeasance.  It's called a statistical anomaly.  Look, I'm all for close scrutiny on this kind of thing but in the absence of any evidence, at least not described in the article.....

Glow, I agree with you sentiment but remember, due process for the NCAA is what the NCAA says is due process. If they want to hang someone, they will. They'll find a way. Just seance the late Tark the Shark and ask him about due process!

In 1977 when Al went off on the NCAA after Marquette narrowly defeated Kansas State, there was a reason for it. I'll leave it at that.

The reality is that big-time College athletics (meaning football and basketball)  has evolved during the last 40 years or so. Once upon a time, it was a quaint way for universities to foster networking among nearby alums. It was a way for, say, Marquette and Wisconsin or Michigan and Michigan State to get together for an afternoon, have a little sport, maybe tell some big fish stories and cheer on some athletically skilled collegians. If we had a few beers in the parking lot or argued politics at a bar on North 3rd Street, so be it.

Now it's a huge business. When dollars are at stake, things like academics, graduation rates, reputations and ethics often go out the window. I'm proud of the fact that while we have had our moments, our university tends to believe the guys that come here should get degrees from here. Sure, we'll take a chance on some players that have promise. I'm betting we do that with the general student population.

The rules are so severe because without some regulation, one can only wonder how some universities will behave. Take a good, hard (pardon the pun) look at Louisville's current morass if you don't believe me.

That said, many of the NCAA rules are garbage. They're PR designed to camouflage the fact that college athletics are a business and that the core resource that makes it go -- the athlete -- is hustled and bartered for institutional gain with comparatively little shared. The rules aren't designed for the "student" athlete, but to perpetuate the monopoly that is NCAA college basketball.   

P.S. -- Hell will freeze over and Satan will wear ear muffs before North Carolina is penalized.

[GGGG]

Why should NCAA care?
Because basketball programs will cheat

It isn't cheating.  A college can admit who it wants.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why should NCAA care?
Because basketball programs will cheat

Some will, some will not.  It's not a perfect system, but much like we have a FCC, FTC, the SEC to have oversight of companies that can hit with penalties for not playing by an agreed upon framework, the same should be true of competitive athletics.

It is impossible to capture all the cheating, but I like the fact there are rules and entities have to abide them or knowingly ignore them with the risk of consequences.  Standardizations are important.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm saying the NCAA get out of academic eligibility to get into college.....once they are in college they have to stay eligible by meeting NCAA academic standards as they do now.

Society complains all the time about some of these kids getting out of school without the ability to function from a literacy standpoint.  Why, then, is it a good idea to make that problem larger by letting in kids that have no business being in school in the first place?

[GGGG]

Society complains all the time about some of these kids getting out of school without the ability to function from a literacy standpoint.  Why, then, is it a good idea to make that problem larger by letting in kids that have no business being in school in the first place?

It isn't a good idea.  Make the individual colleges accountable through the APR process.  Not the NCAA on the front end.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If a player leaves after a year and doesn't take any classes that impacts the APR, right? They can do that now with players, correct? The only change I'm saying is the NCAA doesn't care about high school academics....once the kid is in college, then all the current rules apply.

So a high school kid gets into a college, fails miserably in class he is then ineligible based on his grades and his leaving school impacts the APR...all things currently monitored. The only difference is the NCAA didn't care if his ACT was 2 or 22.

I misunderstood your argument. What I thought you were saying is "if a university wants to admit kid who doesn't qualify academically they will get caught because he doesn't perform well." I brought up hiding students, fake classes, and doctoring grades to show that there would be plenty of ways to hide a kid who didn't qualify academically.

Now I understand your argument is that you don't care if a kid qualifies academically or not. You want to get rid of the minimum academic requirement set forth by the NCAA. I could not disagree with that idea more. If a kid doesn't meet the NCAA's minimum academic requirements for high school graduates, I don't want them to play a single second of college basketball until they do qualify. I know many scoff at this, but they are students first and athletes second. It is not fair to other students. It is not fair to other schools. And most importantly it is not fair to that student "with a 2 on his ACT" who gets admitted.

Expecting a student who doesn't qualify academically to be even remotely successful while balancing a full classload, all the demands of being a D1 athlete, and all the pressures/temptations that come along of that is not only unreasonable, its unethical. At that point, the university is fully exploiting the student for their ability to put a ball through the hoop. The student would be much better served going to a juco or a prep school to try to prepare themselves for the academic rigors of a D1 university. The only reimbursement college athletes get for all they give their schools is their education. If you put them in a situation where they can't even benefit from the education they are receiving because they aren't ready for it, then they are getting nothing. I would love to believe that universities wouldn't exploit a student like this, but I know that they would. Take away the minimum requirement and most universities wouldn't even pretend to have academic standards for the student athletes they admit.

I know there are a few exceptions of kids who couldn't qualify for one reason or another but would actually do well in school. Maybe working out some kind of program for those students. Require they redshirt their first season and if they hack it academically their first year than they qualify. But honestly, those students are the vast minority.

I could listen to arguments for lowering the NCAA's academic requirement, I could hear arguments for raising it, but there has to be a minimum.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It isn't a good idea.  Make the individual colleges accountable through the APR process.  Not the NCAA on the front end.

Its easy to hide failing student athletes once they're in college. Its a lot harder to hide them before they get here.

More importantly, by the time APR would do anything, the individual student has already been exploited.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It isn't a good idea.  Make the individual colleges accountable through the APR process.  Not the NCAA on the front end.

Well, the membership of universities by universities disagree.

[rocky_warrior]

It isn't a good idea.  Make the individual colleges accountable through the APR process.  Not the NCAA on the front end.

I agree with the premise of this, but that's assuming every college/university is being honest with classes and grades.  Unfortunately, you and I know that isn't true.  Qualifying academics are one way to limit this exposure for the NCAA.  Sure, some kids still scam the system before they get to college, but not that many get away with it.

[MUFC9295]

Again.  Get rid of the "C" in NCAA and just field teams of an athletic association... some affiliated with universities, maybe none.  It just an unsustainable model and "doz buuks be dumm" for those with only athletics in mind.

[GGGG]

Well, the membership of universities by universities disagree.

Gee ya think???

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again.  Get rid of the "C" in NCAA and just field teams of an athletic association... some affiliated with universities, maybe none.  It just an unsustrightble model and "doz buuks be dumm" for those with only athletics in mind.

That exists today...it is called the minor leagues.  Not what college sports is.  Why are people wanting to force the NCAA into something it isn't?

1000+ schools, less than 1% come close to doing anything like play professional sports

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

In a somewhat related story, Ben Simmons, the darling of espn, wasn't certified by LSU to be eligible for the wooden award. School says it's fit academic reasons