Point Guard Lineage

[Tums Festival]

Looking at this year's team, this is the first time in quite awhile that we've had a sub-par starting point guard. Starting with Tony Miller to Aaron Hutchins, Cordell Henry, Travis Diener and Dominic James, and to a lesser extent Junior Cadougan, we've had a superb player at that position since the early 90's. Hopefully within the two years we can have a starting point guard the caliber of what we've had in the past and come to expect, be it John Dawson, Nick Noskowiak or Duane Wilson.

[MU82]

Looking at this year's team, this is the first time in quite awhile that we've had a sub-par starting point guard. Starting with Tony Miller to Aaron Hutchins, Cordell Henry, Travis Diener and Dominic James, and to a lesser extent Junior Cadougan, we've had a superb player at that position since the early 90's. Hopefully within the two years we can have a starting point guard the caliber of what we've had in the past and come to expect, be it John Dawson, Nick Noskowiak or Duane Wilson.

A lot of people thought Junior was sub-par, too. I thought he was OK -- basically the "floor" that a high-major with big-time aspirations should have.

Unfortunately, Derrick is in the sub-basement.

[Tugg Speedman]

A lot of people thought Junior was sub-par, too. I thought he was OK -- basically the "floor" that a high-major with big-time aspirations should have.

Unfortunately, Derrick is in the sub-basement.

Posters hated junior so much they were banned.  Marquette65 was banned over posts about Vander, we had another poster called nomorebuycks that was banned.

Now we have Ners

Always the same with our guards, we hate them, all of them.  then two years after they leave we think they were great.

[CTWarrior]

Always the same with our guards, we hate them, all of them.  then two years after they leave we think they were great.

Junior was a step down from the PGs we had from Miller to James, but he was still a competent player and a leader on the floor (as long as the opposition's jersey didn't say "Louisville" on it).  So for a fan base so accustomed to very high level PG play, having merely a solid PG was a disappointment.  People think better of him now, because while he suffered in comparisons with Travis Diener or Dominic James, he shines when compared to how the position is currently handled.  Despite what he is now as a borderline NBA guy, for two seasons Vander wasn't very good at all, but he morphed into an excellent all around player by the end of his junior year, and he is mostly remembered as the great player he was at the end of his MU career.  Considering all the hard work these guys do, I like when they are remembered as their best selves.

[Tugg Speedman]

So we forgot the visceral hatred for Dwight Buycks and how everyone was DEMANDING Buzz sit him for Junior?  Go back and search this board on February 15, 2011.  We lost to St Johns at home that night (sound familiar).  We were 15-11 (6-7), sound familiar.  This board melted down so bad because Buycks played 33 minutes and missed everything but one shot (sound familiar) and Junior only played 15 minutes (sound familiar).  I believe nomorebuycks attacks were so vicious he was banned that night.

Now we have the Derrick Wilson/John Dawson arguments.  Their is nothing new here.  I read them 3 years ago.  

If fact Ners, Hayward, willie and the rest of the haters are probably not even real people.  They are just bots recycling the same Buycks/Junior hate from three years ago.

Nothing changes around here.

[Stretchdeltsig]

We want point guards that are dominant.  De Wilson is simply not dominant.  Opposing players dominate him.  MU will not win much until we play a more talented, dominating point guard.  Dawson and Duane Wilson have the potential to be dominant. 

[NersEllenson]

So we forgot the visceral hatred for Dwight Buycks and how everyone was DEMANDING Buzz sit him for Junior?  Go back and search this board on February 15, 2011.  We lost to St Johns at home that night (sound familiar).  We were 15-11 (6-7), sound familiar.  This board melted down so bad because Buycks played 33 minutes and missed everything but one shot (sound familiar) and Junior only played 15 minutes (sound familiar).  I believe nomorebuycks attacks were so vicious he was banned that night.

Now we have the Derrick Wilson/John Dawson arguments.  Their is nothing new here.  I read them 3 years ago.  

If fact Ners, Hayward, willie and the rest of the haters are probably not even real people.  They are just bots recycling the same Buycks/Junior hate from three years ago.

Nothing changes around here.

Trying to compare Derrick Wilson as a player to Dwight Buycks may be one of the more laughable analogies I've read here in a long time.  As for playing time allocation, I'd have been pacified if Buzz just gave Dawson a consistent 15 minutes every game..instead it was all over the board from some DNP's up to a high mark of 30 where he performed really well...but then generally 8-10 minutes per game made up out of 4-5, 2 minute segments.  Can you imagine Derrick's ORating if he was getting 5 or 6,  2 minute segments??  Hard to do much in such limited run.  How anyone can look at the data of the last 5 games, and not draw a similar conclusion is beyond the realm of explanation.

[willie warrior]

So we forgot the visceral hatred for Dwight Buycks and how everyone was DEMANDING Buzz sit him for Junior?  Go back and search this board on February 15, 2011.  We lost to St Johns at home that night (sound familiar).  We were 15-11 (6-7), sound familiar.  This board melted down so bad because Buycks played 33 minutes and missed everything but one shot (sound familiar) and Junior only played 15 minutes (sound familiar).  I believe nomorebuycks attacks were so vicious he was banned that night.

Now we have the Derrick Wilson/John Dawson arguments.  Their is nothing new here.  I read them 3 years ago.  

If fact Ners, Hayward, willie and the rest of the haters are probably not even real people.  They are just bots recycling the same Buycks/Junior hate from three years ago.

Nothing changes around here.

Did it ever occur to you Sunshine when you call somebody a Hater--a common term for one who has no facts--that you yourself are hating? Probably not, your MO is to pound the table and call names when you cannot argue the facts. But that is OK for you, everybody is respected on this board, right? Even those who do not see the forest from the trees, or what is in plain sight in front of them.

Just to disprove your latest theorem: I was not a Bucyks fan, but he was far better than Derrick, because even though they both dribbled around the perimeter a bunch, Buycks would occasionally launch a three and make it. And he could make FT's. I was a big fan of Cadougan who is twice the PG Derrick is-better passer, better court vision, better shooter, pushed the ball, threaded inside passes, and could make FT's.

What does not change around here is the blind defense of Buzz playing an inept PG 40 plus minutes a game while the guy is costing us games. And we still have the same people telling us Derrick is the man--when the evidence is right in front of them--he ain't--in spite of what the worshipped coach throws out in his manure spreader.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I think I recall Crean saying, after the Diener injury fiasco (and Brandon Bell being over his head), that he regretted being short a point guard and that he'd never again make the same mistake. Could this be a Buzz philosophy thing? Meaning, is it possible that Buzz does not think a point guard is any more important than the rest of the players? I think he recruits makeup more than anything, which I think works great with "switchables" but maybe not as much with point guards. In my opinion, a point guard needs to be a gym rat type of guy. I watched the Nebraska/IU game last week and I really liked Nebraska's point guard but it struck me that Buzz would probably never recruit him. I don't remember his name, but he is very small and he's super quick. I admit i have not seen a lot of Nebraska this year and this could've been a mirage. They looked like a good team to me, but their record is good, but not great so I may be wrong.

Derrick fits the profile of a Buzz recruit in that he hustles his ass off, is smart and appears to be a great teammate. Same with Junior. But I don't think either were even as effective as Maurice Acker, who really only got minutes with Buzz out of desperation as I recall.

[Stretchdeltsig]

MO could shoot the outside shot and run the break.

[rocky_warrior]

Could this be a Buzz philosophy thing?

The only philosophy that he's ever stated is that he wants a PG and big man in every class, wants switchables for the other 3 positions.  However, he's clearly either strayed from that philosophy, or has not executed it well.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

The only philosophy that he's ever stated is that he wants a PG and big man in every class, wants switchables for the other 3 positions.  However, he's clearly either strayed from that philosophy, or has not executed it well.

I'm not really sure who, of the bigger minute guys, is really even a switchable. I guess Burton can be and they pretend Jamil is, but he isn't. Juan fits the switchable profile but it hasn't worked out for whatever reason. Taylor, too.

[rocky_warrior]

I'm not really sure who, of the bigger minute guys, is really even a switchable. I guess Burton can be and they pretend Jamil is, but he isn't. Juan fits the switchable profile but it hasn't worked out for whatever reason. Taylor, too.

Oh, I agree, it's not just the PG and big man he's missed on, or strayed.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Oh, I agree, it's not just the PG and big man he's missed on, or strayed.

I gotcha. Just saying that his stated philosophy on switchables may not have worked, either! Then again, we can't expect him to find a Jimmy Butler in every class.

[MU82]

I think I recall Crean saying, after the Diener injury fiasco (and Brandon Bell being over his head), that he regretted being short a point guard and that he'd never again make the same mistake.

I coach at a much, much, MUCH lower level -- 7th/8th-grade girls -- and my two biggest fears/worries/concerns: 1, Do I have a competent point guard? and 2, Do I have a passable backup point guard?

The PG is no less important at the high-major level!

So we forgot the visceral hatred for Dwight Buycks and how everyone was DEMANDING Buzz sit him for Junior?  Go back and search this board on February 15, 2011.  We lost to St Johns at home that night (sound familiar).  We were 15-11 (6-7), sound familiar.  This board melted down so bad because Buycks played 33 minutes and missed everything but one shot (sound familiar) and Junior only played 15 minutes (sound familiar).  I believe nomorebuycks attacks were so vicious he was banned that night.

Now we have the Derrick Wilson/John Dawson arguments.  Their is nothing new here.  I read them 3 years ago. 

If fact Ners, Hayward, willie and the rest of the haters are probably not even real people.  They are just bots recycling the same Buycks/Junior hate from three years ago.

Nothing changes around here.

I wasn't posting on Scoop when Buycks played here. I only recall being truly upset one time: When he foolishly went for that layup against Ville when all he had to do was hold the ball and get fouled.

Looking at the bigger picture regarding what Heisenberg says: What we have now is the benefit of hindsight. Yes, some -- maybe even most -- might not have considered Buycks or Junior good enough at the time. But now, with the perspective gained through time, it's clear either was superior to Derrick.

I can't speak for Ners because I don't know what motivates him, but I definitely can say Derrick is the least-effective PG I have seen start an entire season at Marquette -- and not just start, but completely dominate the minutes. I would be thrilled if he were as good as Junior or Buycks were.

Yes, there is bias through hindsight there, but it doesn't make it less true.

[brandx]

A lot of people thought Junior was sub-par, too. I thought he was OK -- basically the "floor" that a high-major with big-time aspirations should have.

Unfortunately, Derrick is in the sub-basement.

Agreed. Junior looks better in the context of Derrick. Put Peyton Siva at PG last year and I have no doubt we were a final four team at least.

[Lennys Tap]

Agreed. Junior looks better in the context of Derrick. Put Peyton Siva at PG last year and I have no doubt we were a final four team at least.

I won't bore everyone again with the math but this is way over the top. We made the elite 8 last year but the odds against that were roughly 10-1. We had about a 3.5% chance of making the final four (odds against approx 30-1). Siva would have made us better for sure but hardly "at least a final four team". Even the #1 seeds usually enter the tournament with less than a 50% chance of reaching the final four.

[muhoops1]

So we forgot the visceral hatred for Dwight Buycks and how everyone was DEMANDING Buzz sit him for Junior?  Go back and search this board on February 15, 2011.  We lost to St Johns at home that night (sound familiar).  We were 15-11 (6-7), sound familiar.  This board melted down so bad because Buycks played 33 minutes and missed everything but one shot (sound familiar) and Junior only played 15 minutes (sound familiar).  I believe nomorebuycks attacks were so vicious he was banned that night.

Now we have the Derrick Wilson/John Dawson arguments.  Their is nothing new here.  I read them 3 years ago.  

If fact Ners, Hayward, willie and the rest of the haters are probably not even real people.  
They are just bots recycling the same Buycks/Junior hate from three years ago.

Nothing changes around here.

Was it Buycks who took the ball to he rim and missed in that epic collapse at LU?  Or was it McNeal?  I know he did it against Nova in the BET as I witnessed it.  I'll admit I'm the first to call for a change after a loss...most of the time I'm wrong based on emotion. 

[jesmu84]

Agreed. Junior looks better in the context of Derrick. Put Peyton Siva at PG last year and I have no doubt we were a final four team at least.

Subbing Siva in for Junior would have gotten a win over Syracuse? Veto

[ShannonSmith]

Times could be worse...remember Bart Miller at the point

[jzpenguin]

Right now, I'd settle for a pg who can make free throws and a few jump shots.