3 Point Shooting

[martyconlonontherun]

Second straight year this team is hovering around 30% shooting from beyond the arc. Kind of surprising this year since we are starting Jake Thomas (he is shooting 42% from 3) and Jamil (who is a good stretch 4), with guys like Mayo and JJJ coming off the bench.

Any idea why we are so bad this year? Is it scheme or players missing shots? We really need to start hitting some shots from the outside and open things up for Otule and Gardner down low. It is getting cramped in the paint.

[tower912]

It is the same scheme that Buzz ran with the midgets, with Lazar, Jae, DJO, Buycks...... so, it is not the scheme.   Go through the individual players.   What are their percentages?        DeWilson has hit one all year.     I actually take the opposite opinion about opening up the post area.   I would rather see Buzz go 'small'.    Start using more combinations without Oxtule in there.    Let Jamil run the point with some combination of Todd, Jake, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, and STjr around him.    Quicker ball movement, more slashing and shooting.   IMO, this offense bogs down as soon as the ball hits the post.   Ball movement and player movement all stop while they wait to see what Oxtule does.   

[GGGG]

For the most part, it is simply players missing shots.  Jake does have trouble shedding defenders, but he is shooting well.  Mayo is about 35%.  Jamil is about 30%.

The rest are simply not great shooters.  JJJ was not considered a shooter coming out of school.  

It will be nice to see what Duane can do when he gets healthy.  Also I think Ahmed Hill is going to provide some of this next year at well.  

[Hards Alumni]

It is the same scheme that Buzz ran with the midgets, with Lazar, Jae, DJO, Buycks...... so, it is not the scheme.   Go through the individual players.   What are their percentages?        DeWilson has hit one all year.     I actually take the opposite opinion about opening up the post area.   I would rather see Buzz go 'small'.    Start using more combinations without Oxtule in there.    Let Jamil run the point with some combination of Todd, Jake, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, and STjr around him.    Quicker ball movement, more slashing and shooting.   IMO, this offense bogs down as soon as the ball hits the post.   Ball movement and player movement all stop while they wait to see what Oxtule does.   

I actually agree.  We are probably relying too much on our front court to score.  It has been difficult to get the ball down to them against better teams, and it is holding our offense back.  

As to Sultan's comment... I thought JJJ was supposed to be a great shooter.

[bilsu]

It is the same scheme that Buzz ran with the midgets, with Lazar, Jae, DJO, Buycks...... so, it is not the scheme.   Go through the individual players.   What are their percentages?        DeWilson has hit one all year.     I actually take the opposite opinion about opening up the post area.   I would rather see Buzz go 'small'.    Start using more combinations without Oxtule in there.    Let Jamil run the point with some combination of Todd, Jake, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, and STjr around him.    Quicker ball movement, more slashing and shooting.   IMO, this offense bogs down as soon as the ball hits the post.   Ball movement and player movement all stop while they wait to see what Oxtule does.   

It is not the same scheme. When Culliban, DJO and Acker were the starting guards they passed the ball quickly between them on the perimeter and had were expected to take the three. Buzz's other teams concentrated more on paint touches and looking to pass inside. The three is the second option. First look to pass and then think about taking the three. One of Thomas problems is that he gets the ball, looks to pass it, and then his opening to shoot is gone. It is not just him, but in general the team is looking to pass inside of shooting the opening three. A high percentage of MU's threes are desparation shots. It drives me nuts when an MU player could take a three, but passes the ball and the ball eventually gets turned over or we end up with a worse shot. One of the reason Buzz wants to pass it inside, because he sees drawing fouls as being important. However, surprisingly to me, that with the new foul rules we are not being fouled as much as I thought we would. We are also much worse at actually making free throws than I expected.

[MUBurrow]

 I actually take the opposite opinion about opening up the post area.   I would rather see Buzz go 'small'.    Start using more combinations without Oxtule in there.    Let Jamil run the point with some combination of Todd, Jake, JJJ, Deonte, Juan, and STjr around him.    Quicker ball movement, more slashing and shooting.   IMO, this offense bogs down as soon as the ball hits the post.   Ball movement and player movement all stop while they wait to see what Oxtule does.   

A lot of this. Jake is a great shooter off the catch, but not the dribble. I'd live to see his shooting percentages when he takes even one dribble vs when he doesn't. I think that a big part of the offensive issues is all the ball stopping. I don't like to hate on Jake, bc he can succeed if put into the narrow niche in which he specializes. Think of the minutes Jake got last year to camp out in the corner and if he touched the ball, pull on the catch. This opened up (a) the post on that side and (b) the top of the key for driving lanes. I don't think the oxtule lineup is worth the defensive mismatches and lame clogging effects that come with it, but I think another real key is that certainly no more than two of Otule, Ox, Jake and STjr when he's healthy can ever see the floor at the same time.

[tower912]

Go back and watch the first half of the NM game.   There were stretches where it looked exactly like the 09-10 team.   That team never threw the ball into the block.   This team does.  And the ball stops.   But there is still ample examples of players getting to the paint and passing opposite.

[bilsu]

Go back and watch the first half of the NM game.   There were stretches where it looked exactly like the 09-10 team.   That team never threw the ball into the block.   This team does.  And the ball stops.   But there is still ample examples of players getting to the paint and passing opposite.

The ball moved arround the perimeter much quicker with the 09-10 team than it did against New Mexico.

I looked up the free throw statistics.

Last year for 35 games we shot 73% making 15.74 out of 21.57 free throws per game.
This year through 12 games we have shot 65.9% making 15.91 out of 24.17 free throws per game.

[tower912]

I don't disagree about the 09-10 ball movement being quicker as a rule.   I see MU is shooting FT's poorly.   Are you trying to make the point that if MU was shooting FT's at the same rate as last year the team would be doing better?

[leever]

Any idea why we are so bad this year?

Yes.  Buzz needs to recruit better basketball players.  And a "quality big".  And practice free throws.

[bilsu]

I don't disagree about the 09-10 ball movement being quicker as a rule.   I see MU is shooting FT's poorly.   Are you trying to make the point that if MU was shooting FT's at the same rate as last year the team would be doing better?

4 close games and if they were shooting at 73% free throw rate it would be about two more points per game. Remember making the front end of a 1 & 1 gives you another opportunity. Derrick & Thomas missed front ends of one & ones against New Mexico. Make 3-4 and the game might of had a different winner.

[NersEllenson]

The issue with the comparison between the team with the midgets - Cooby and Acker - is that both of them were good three point shooters, and actually fairly quick off the bounce (Acker more than Cooby) - on this year's team Derrick Wilson has yet to show he can be any kind of reliable 3 point shooter, therefore it totally changes the complexion for the whole team and makes the comparison to the midgets team completely apples to oranges.

The best thing that could happen for this team is for Derrick to start taking 5 three's per game, and if he can make even 1.5 of the 5....we'll be a much better team and the game will get easier for all the other guys.  Till this happens, it's going to be a frustrating year.

[Sunbelt15]

The rest are simply not great shooters.  JJJ was not considered a shooter coming out of school.  

Hell, me not knowing this kid, I thought he was the second coming of Carmelo after reading the post on this blog once he declared.   

[GGGG]

My understanding is that JJJ had the reputation more of a slasher than a shooter.  He's not a bad shooter by any respects.  I mean, if he hits one more of his 17 3PAs this year (making 6 instead of 5), he's got a better percentage than Mayo or Jamil.

And let's not forget that he's also a freshman...and freshmen do improve.

[MU82]

Let's start with this not being a very good passing team in general. (At least not so far.) We feed the post as our first option most times, and our three top options down low -- Gardner, Otule and Burton -- aren't exactly Bill Walton in the passing department. Burton shoots every single time, no matter the likelihood that he'll make it, and Otule is pretty much the same. Gardner will at least consider passing if he's double-teamed but he's not the greatest at it. Also, skip passes haven't been part of our offensive game plan. And when we do get an offensive rebound the person who grabs it usually shoots it; for many teams, offensive boards are a great source of wide open 3-point looks.

Also, very, very few drive-and-dish situations. So far, we rarely have had a player break down his defender, drive aggressively into the lane and kick out for wide-open shooters.

Then there's the fact that we really don't have many good 3-point shooters. Duane, who shot 55% as a prep, has yet to suit up, JJJ wasn't considered a 3-point specialist coming out of high school, Mayo for all of his reputation is 31.6% in his career, and our PGs haven't shown they are 3-point threats. Jamil, who would figure to be a good 3-point shooter, has almost exactly the same lousy percentage our team does.

And then there's Jake, who has built has stats thanks to 3 games of 4+ treys but also has had 6 games (which is half our schedule so far) with 1 or 0.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a recipe for a 30.9% shooting 3-point "attack."

[forgetful]

Let's start with this not being a very good passing team in general. (At least not so far.)

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a recipe for a 30.9% shooting 3-point "attack."

That was all that was needed.  We are not as effective passing the ball quickly around the perimeter.  We did do it well in the first half against NM and things went well...after that not so much.

But we are bad at passing in general.  Passes are not delivered on target, meaning if someone was open they end up rushed or out of rhythm as they collect the ball.  You will see your shooting percentage drop considerably that way.  Get passes back on target and get some kickouts and this team will shoot over 38%.  (Jake can shoot close to 50 that way and Jamil/Mayo over 40...Juan also can get close to 40 with good passing). 

[nycwarrior]

Buzz has stated a number of times that a good three is one taken "with 10 toes pointed at the rim."

It's obviously a very simple, memorable way if emphasizing the importance of steeping into a catch with shoulders squared and a clean look at the rim. in the past it's helped him to turn an average shooter into a good shooter. Post shoulder surgery Cooby struggled before finding his groove senior year. Same with Acker.

It's why he believes "paint touches" boost shooting percentages. Force help and deliver on time and on target.

It's also why Buzz loves to have good shooting 4s who can step into a top-of-the key jumper in the secondary break - think Wes, Zar and Jae.

It's not about whether this team can swing the ball around the perimeter. It's more about whether they can swing it and then get into the paint after.

I'm hoping this down time is allowing for more practice. If we can manufacture ways to for e rotation we'll be better than the 09-10 team.

[NersEllenson]

Buzz has stated a number of times that a good three is one taken "with 10 toes pointed at the rim."

It's obviously a very simple, memorable way if emphasizing the importance of steeping into a catch with shoulders squared and a clean look at the rim. in the past it's helped him to turn an average shooter into a good shooter. Post shoulder surgery Cooby struggled before finding his groove senior year. Same with Acker.

It's why he believes "paint touches" boost shooting percentages. Force help and deliver on time and on target.

It's also why Buzz loves to have good shooting 4s who can step into a top-of-the key jumper in the secondary break - think Wes, Zar and Jae.

It's not about whether this team can swing the ball around the perimeter. It's more about whether they can swing it and then get into the paint after.

I'm hoping this down time is allowing for more practice. If we can manufacture ways to for e rotation we'll be better than the 09-10 team.

A big part of the problem is Derrick Wilson's defender is practically playing in the paint as a help defender on everybody else.  Buzz has said it himself - We are playing 5 on 4 with Derrick in the game.  A lot harder to get paint touches when the point guard's defender is already collapsing to the paint.  Wrote it earlier - best thing that could happen is Derrick just starts launching 3's - at least 5 a game, and even if he only makes 1 of the 5 - it will cause the oppositions defense to consider defending him out to  3 point line - and based on his shot form/mechanics - which are pretty good - I do think the guy could be a 35% 3 point shooter...

[APieperFan3]

A big part of the problem is Derrick Wilson's defender is practically playing in the paint as a help defender on everybody else.  Buzz has said it himself - We are playing 5 on 4 with Derrick in the game.  A lot harder to get paint touches when the point guard's defender is already collapsing to the paint.  Wrote it earlier - best thing that could happen is Derrick just starts launching 3's - at least 5 a game, and even if he only makes 1 of the 5 - it will cause the oppositions defense to consider defending him out to  3 point line - and based on his shot form/mechanics - which are pretty good - I do think the guy could be a 35% 3 point shooter...

But when you shoot with very minimal (to zero) confidence...the ball rarely goes in the hoop.

However, would be interesting to see him step into a few during a real game....I agree that if even just 1 goes in, his defender will play much more honest than they currently do.

[TJ]

Any idea why we are so bad this year?

Honestly, I think it's mostly because the players are not very good outside shooters.  Buzz does not seem to prioritize outside shooting in his recruiting.  The only pure shooter on the team was originally a walk-on.

Additionally, if you look at the returning stats from last year and consider that no newcomer is shooting 3's better than 30%, it makes sense that we are shooting right around 31%

2012 3pt shooting (returning players only):
Jamil Wilson 36% 36/100
Juan Anderson 29% 12/42
Todd Mayo 28% 17/61
Jake Thomas 27% 10/36
Steve Taylor 25% 3/12
Davante Gardner 20% 1/5
Derrick Wilson 13% 1/8
Chris Otule 0% 0/0
Total: 30% 80/264

[MU82]

Honestly, I think it's mostly because the players are not very good outside shooters.  Buzz does not seem to prioritize outside shooting in his recruiting.  The only pure shooter on the team was originally a walk-on.

Additionally, if you look at the returning stats from last year and consider that no newcomer is shooting 3's better than 30%, it makes sense that we are shooting right around 31%

2012 3pt shooting (returning players only):
Jamil Wilson 36% 36/100
Juan Anderson 29% 12/42
Todd Mayo 28% 17/61
Jake Thomas 27% 10/36
Steve Taylor 25% 3/12
Davante Gardner 20% 1/5
Derrick Wilson 13% 1/8
Chris Otule 0% 0/0
Total: 30% 80/264

Well, Buzz did prioritize recruiting Duane Wilson, who was one of the best prep 3-point shooters in the nation last season.

[TJ]

Well, Buzz did prioritize recruiting Duane Wilson, who was one of the best prep 3-point shooters in the nation last season.

I guess I should say from his hire until the 2012-13 freshman class Buzz did not seem to prioritize outside shooting in recruiting.  I don't follow recruiting closely so I couldn't tell you much about this year's freshmen or future recruits - maybe there has been or will be a shift in his philosophy going forward. 

[MU82]

I guess I should say from his hire until the 2012-13 freshman class Buzz did not seem to prioritize outside shooting in recruiting.  I don't follow recruiting closely so I couldn't tell you much about this year's freshmen or future recruits - maybe there has been or will be a shift in his philosophy going forward. 

I'm with you on this, TJ. Teams need to be able to hit the 3 to win nowadays. I mean, just look at that Davidson game. If Jamil and Vander don't pull those 3s out of their you-know-whats, we're toast. And if we had hit some earlier in the game, we wouldn't have been in that position. And how about against Syracuse; sure would have been nice to make one of those wide-open 3s they kept daring us to take.

There are teams -- really, really good, NCAA-championship-contending teams -- that practically take a 3 every two or three times down the court.

Gotta be able to shoot the rock to win. Period.