ESPN: MU-OSU blurb

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

We absolutely need to see more, no question. But JD and DW played in the exact two games, and based on that small sample size, I feel better about JD for this fleeting moment. But you would be foolish to proclaim that JD is better suited for the position moving forward, period.

That's fine.

I'm not sure what else I can realistically ask Derrick to do. He's never going to be Novak.

But, if he can get 10 assists and 5 rebounds... I'm thrilled.

I'm not sure I saw everything "running smoother" with Dawson... but that's just me.

[Windyplayer]

That's fine.

I'm not sure what else I can realistically ask Derrick to do. He's never going to be Novak.

But, if he can get 10 assists and 5 rebounds... I'm thrilled.

I'm not sure I saw everything "running smoother" with Dawson... but that's just me.

You can ask your PG to be at the very least a nominal threat to score. DW is not at that threshold. The question becomes do his assists, ballhanding, and defense outweigh Dawson's ability to score along with his--CLICHE ALERT--ability to run the offense. Lots of factors to consider with a tiny sample size (for Dawson). I'll get back to everyone at the end of December.

[GGGG]

You can ask your PG to be at the very least a nominal threat to score. DW is not at that threshold. The question becomes do his assists, ballhanding, and defense outweigh Dawson's ability to score along with his--CLICHE ALERT--ability to run the offense. Lots of factors to consider with a tiny sample size (for Dawson). I'll get back to everyone at the end of December.

I'm not sure what exactly Dawson did to "run the offense" any differently than Wilson did.

[Nevada233]

Ugh...*no one* is hating on the kid.

Some of us just don't want to crown him after playing two games of college basketball against SWAC opponents. 

Your totally right. I certainly agree there
Is a maturation process and he should not be given the crown
Without earning it.

But how quick hype builds is crazy wouldnt u agree.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You can ask your PG to be at the very least a nominal threat to score. DW is not at that threshold. The question becomes do his assists, ballhanding, and defense outweigh Dawson's ability to score along with his--CLICHE ALERT--ability to run the offense. Lots of factors to consider with a tiny sample size (for Dawson). I'll get back to everyone at the end of December.

Well, I guess this is just where we fundamentally disagree.

I'll take a PG who scores 0, but gets 10 assists, 5 rebounds and plays good/great defense. I think you can win with that guy.

Now, I don't expect Derrick to do that every game (or ever again for that matter), but I have a tough time saying that another player has played "better" at PG, when Derrick has done EVERYTHING but score.

Dawson really be Magic Johnson and John Stockton combined... but at this point, to me, he hasn't been better than Derrick Wilson. AND I suspect Buzz feels the same way. Barring foul trouble, I think Derrick will get 25+ minutes tomorrow. Dawson will get under 10.  

[Windyplayer]

Well, I guess this is just where we fundamentally disagree.

I'll take a PG who scores 0, but gets 10 assists, 5 rebounds and plays good/great defense. I think you can win with that guy.

Now, I don't expect Derrick to do that every game (or ever again for that matter), but I have a tough time saying that another player has played "better" at PG, when Derrick has done EVERYTHING but score.

Dawson really be Magic Johnson and John Stockton combined... but at this point, to me, he hasn't been better than Derrick Wilson. AND I suspect Buzz feels the same way. Barring foul trouble, I think Derrick will get 25+ minutes tomorrow. Dawson will get under 10.  

Yes, if you're posting 10 assists a game, you don't have to score (however, point guards that can post such an average can score making it easier to post such assist totals since defenses have to take them seriously as viable scorers) but that 10 assists for DW is such an anomaly. When a team scores 114 points in 40 minutes, the opposition is not playing defense. I'd be intersted in seeing how many of those assists had an impact on the field goal (not just a pass and then the recipient does the work to score). To his credit, he did only play 20 minutes and put up that total, but still.

[NersEllenson]

I'm not sure what exactly Dawson did to "run the offense" any differently than Wilson did.

If you can't see Dawson is a much more fluid and smooth player than Derrick, not sure what to tell you.  Dawson had 3 assists that I recall were of the no look variety, that led to easy buckets.  He also, made a great move going to the basket on the FG he scored....and not to mention the beautiful ultra quick spin move he made that cleared the first defender easily, but was met with resistance by a big man...who I think swatted the shot.

Of course you can point to the swatted shot and say big deal....but the spin move was a great, aggressive* move, and something I've yet to see from Derrick Wilson...which of course Derrick can do...but not at the speed and fluidity that Dawson showed.  That speed/quickness leads to easier baskets for either John, or a teammate.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, if you're posting 10 assists a game, you don't have to score (however, point guards that can post such an average can score making it easier to post such assist totals since defenses have to take them seriously as viable scorers) but that 10 assists for DW is such an anomaly. When a team scores 114 points in 40 minutes, the opposition is not playing defense. I'd be intersted in seeing how many of those assists had an impact on the field goal (not just a pass and then the recipient does the work to score). To his credit, he did only play 20 minutes and put up that total, but still.

Totally fair... but to that point, given the competition, I don't know if Dawson's performance is as impressive as some might think, right?

Maybe Dawson's performance was an anomaly against a bad team?

[NersEllenson]

Totally fair... but to that point, given the competition, I don't know if Dawson's performance is as impressive as some might think, right?

Maybe Dawson's performance was an anomaly against a bad team?

That's where the "eye test," comes into play, and where some more progressive minds can extrapolate and see that it will prove not to be an anomaly.  Derrick getting 10 assists though, that I believe will be an anomaly.

[GGGG]

That's where the "eye test," comes into play, and where some more progressive minds can extrapolate and see that it will prove not to be an anomaly.  Derrick getting 10 assists though, that I believe will be an anomaly.

Are these are the same "progressive minds" that say things like "(DJ Newbill has) had a better college career than Vander has?"

Just wondering.

[NersEllenson]

Are these are the same "progressive minds" that say things like "(DJ Newbill has) had a better college career than Vander has?"

Just wondering.

Ahh yes....Vander was a bust his first 2 years....had a good junior year.  Newbill way outperformed Vander his first 2 years, and as "great" as you may want to call Vander's year last year...Newbill's was virtually the exact same.  Sure you'll love the stats, as you are a stats guy and can't base anything on such cliche's as the "eye test."

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=devonte-newbill&devonte-newbill=2012-2013&p1=vander-blue

[GGGG]

Ahh yes....Vander was a bust his first 2 years....had a good junior year.

So "progressive minds" call Vander a "bust" the first 2 years?

Huh.

[boyonthedock]

Derrick Wilson is a problem because you don't even have to guard him. And teams DON'T even guard him. If I coached against MU I'd just double Gardner and dare Derrick to put it the hoop without anyone even giving him token pressure until he is 5 feet from the hoop. He was consistently left completely left wide open in these first 2 games, and did nothing to show it was a bad strategy.

[NersEllenson]

So "progressive minds" call Vander a "bust" the first 2 years?

Huh.

Funny you didn't address the stat sheet head to head comparison between Newbill and Vander's "breakout" year last year.

But yes, I'd call Vander's first 2 seasons at MU a bust...or at least measured against Newbill's:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=devonte-newbill&devonte-newbill=2010-2011&p1=vander-blue&vander-blue=2010-2011

[GGGG]

Funny you didn't address the stat sheet head to head comparison between Newbill and Vander's "breakout" year last year.

OK I will address that now...Vander was better.

[GGGG]

Funny you didn't address the stat sheet head to head comparison between Newbill and Vander's "breakout" year last year.

But yes, I'd call Vander's first 2 seasons at MU a bust...or at least measured against Newbill's:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=devonte-newbill&devonte-newbill=2010-2011&p1=vander-blue&vander-blue=2010-2011

So "progressive minds" think that numbers at Southern Miss are similar to numbers at Marquette?

Alright...I'm done with this.  If you want to think that Newbill is better than Vander that is your opinion.  I'll just leave it at that.

[boyonthedock]

Newbill didn't have to pry the ball from the hands of Butler, Crowder, and DJO.

[NersEllenson]

So "progressive minds" think that numbers at Southern Miss are similar to numbers at Marquette?

Alright...I'm done with this.  If you want to think that Newbill is better than Vander that is your opinion.  I'll just leave it at that.

Agree to disagree...and think that stats show as much.  To not call Vander's first 2 seasons at MU as a 5 star recruit a bust....well....not sure what else to say.  He was AWFUL as a freshman, and not much better as a sophomore.  I will say, however, that I never saw the huge jump coming that he made in his 3rd season at MU.  Hopefully, the same can be said about Derrick Wilson...and then I'll be the one eating the big sh$tburger..

[MU82]

I think D.Will has been just fine.  Kind of reminds me back when Cubillian and Acker were running the offense and some people on here had a collective aneurysm.  We don't need points out of our PG, we just need someone that'll distribute the ball without turning it over.

I have an aneurysm now whenever Derrick rises up to shoot ... which was something Cooby and Acker could do.

A PG on a great team at least has to be a threat to score. I would like somebody to give me an example of a great -- I'm talking truly championship-caliber team -- that had a PG who shot 20-something % from the field and 40-something % from the FT line.

That's all I'm saying now and it's all I've ever said about Derrick Wilson. I'd love, love, love him to show us he's been sandbagging it all this time and that he can be depended upon to hit a FT with the game on the line or can hit a wide-open 16-footer when Gardner gets double-teamed.

That's not hatin' ... it's hopin'!!!

[boyonthedock]

Coobie and Acker could hit 3s and free throws.

[77ncaachamps]

We are pretty much one-dimensional until he show that out perimeter guys can score consistently.

If I was Matta, I'd double DG and force him to pass out to inexperienced guards to shoot the ball.
And cross my fingers while doing so.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's where the "eye test," comes into play, and where some more progressive minds can extrapolate and see that it will prove not to be an anomaly.  Derrick getting 10 assists though, that I believe will be an anomaly.

And that's fine, I guess I'm just not seeing what you see.

[mugrad2006]

This conversation reminds a little of the MU tourney loss to Missouri after Dom James went down.  The real MU did a solid job breaking the press, but Mo Acker just wasn't a threat to score and it made it a lot harder to MU to wear down the Tigers.  More than once he just had to pull up and set up the offense instead of breaking down an advantage after beating the press.

Not looking for a PG like James or Diener who can score at will given the rest of the team, but it's starting to look like the PG position is zero threat to score.

[MarsupialMadness]

Everyone said the same thing last two years with Cadougan.  There's like a 12 page thread about it.  Things will fall into place.  Derrick earns his spot on the floor, obviously Buzz sees it that way.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Finally watched the game.  Derrick looked great.  Dawson looked great.  Jake looked great.  Steve Taylor looked great.  Chris looked great.  Juan looked great.  Deonte looked great.  JaJaun got off to a slow start but looked great.  Dylan Flood looked great.  BTW, he also scored more points than Derrick, maybe he should play more. 

The point is, everyone looked great because Grambling SUCKS.  You can't tell anything from that game.

Short of watching the entire game again, is there a resource that would tell you who ran the offense better from a statistial POV?  They both played 20 minutes, is there any way to look at scoring, FG %, etc. while each was on the floor?  Only way to answer the question and get past the infamous "eye test". 

Oh, and the 30 foot post-entry bounce passes that everyone is so excited about only work against a team as lousy as Grambling, so that's fools gold.  Also, Dawson didn't even have the prettiest assists in the game...Juan did (x2), maybe he should be the starting point guard.