BIG ? to add UNC and possibly UVA or Gtech?

[Pakuni]

Because OSU and Michigan are back from their 4 years of averageness. Because of Meyer and Hoke. Because you have a Nebraska team that's also very solid.

The conference may not be as deep top to bottom, but it will be like the 70s/80s again over the next few years w/UM and OSU running the place.

So, the Big 12 is deeper "from top to bottom," but the Big 10 will be better because Ohio State and Michigan.
OK. I guess.
Wonder if MU fans would have bought an argument that went something like ...
"Sure, Big East is deeper top to bottom, but the ACC is better because Duke and North Carolina and the 80s/90s."

[Pakuni]

Why is Georgetown on this list? Other than Clinton there are not a lot of Georgetown grads "running this country." It is a fine school but will never be elite

Seriously? Five percent of the U.S. Senate are Georgetown alums.

U.S. Sen. John Barrasso
U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin
U.S. Sen. Mark Kirk
U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy
U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

Congress has to approve the tax exempt status.

People are mixing up things here.  The individual schools are tax exempt because Congress has said that intercollegiate athletics are not an "unrelated business activity" and therefore are exempt from taxes because most universities are.  The NCAA is tax-exempt because it is a membership organization.  I mean, the NFL corporate is a tax exempt organization...although their teams are not.

So for the schools to break away, they would have to create a new membership association, join that association, and get the IRS to exempt that association (which without a change in law, should be an automatic).  This will not impact the tax exempt status of the individual members in anyway.

[Nukem2]

Seriously? Five percent of the U.S. Senate are Georgetown alums.

U.S. Sen. John Barrasso
U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin
U.S. Sen. Mark Kirk
U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy
U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski

Yes, G-Town has quite a few high-profile alums.  Of course, location has helped a lot with that..... 

[keefe]

Seriously? Five percent of the U.S. Senate are Georgetown alums.

U.S. Sen. John Barrasso
U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin
U.S. Sen. Mark Kirk
U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy
U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski

As I said, Georgetown is a fine school but not among the nation's elite.  I would say in addition to the Ivies I would put schools such as Middlebury, Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Haverford, Connecticut College, Colgate, Hamilton, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Trinity, Vassar, Tufts, and Wesleyan in the elite category.

One thing you learn at an Ivy or Little Ivy is that much of the education is becoming socially competitive.

And I don't think that a politically mixed bag of senators who cannot agree on substantive issues are going to band together to drive legislation on something as trivial as Georgetown's athletic conference affiliation.

[Pakuni]

As I said, Georgetown is a fine school but not among the nation's elite.  I would say in addition to the Ivies I would put schools such as Middlebury, Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Haverford, Connecticut College, Colgate, Hamilton, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Trinity, Vassar, Tufts, and Wesleyan in the elite category.

One thing you learn at an Ivy or Little Ivy is that much of the education is becoming socially competitive.

And I don't think that a politically mixed bag of senators who cannot agree on substantive issues are going to band together to drive legislation on something as trivial as Georgetown's athletic conference affiliation.

Moving goalposts.
I was responding to your statement that "Other than Clinton there are not a lot of Georgetown grads "running this country." After I showed that G'town grads actually have quite a lot of influence on the running of this country, you made it an issue of "eliteness."
Debating whether Georgetown is more or less "elite" than Vassar or Middlebury or Amherst is so subjective it's pointless.

[jficke13]

Debating whether Georgetown is more or less "elite" than Vassar or Middlebury or Amherst is so subjective it's pointless.

Sounds like the worthless airtime filler that ESPN typically engages in about QBs

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

The ACC started this mess.  I would love to see them be the next victims of new mentality they created.  UVa and UNC to the Big Ten would make a lot sense for those schools and the B1G but would suck for the ACC.

+1 - The only reason I would like to see it happen because it never had to happen where it not for the ACC.

[Warriors10]

+1 - The only reason I would like to see it happen because it never had to happen where it not for the ACC.

Seriously, that is a stupid argument.  One could argue that the ACC saw what the future had in store and just was smart enough to do it first.  All this would have happened even if the ACC did not raid the BE; BIG (or any conference for that matter) would have eventually realized more eyeballs = more revenue and this would have started another way.

Plus, Marquette doesn't get into the BE without the ACC raiding it so...

[keefe]

Moving goalposts.
I was responding to your statement that "Other than Clinton there are not a lot of Georgetown grads "running this country." After I showed that G'town grads actually have quite a lot of influence on the running of this country, you made it an issue of "eliteness."
Debating whether Georgetown is more or less "elite" than Vassar or Middlebury or Amherst is so subjective it's pointless.

Moving goalposts.

In my original post I concluded with, "It (Georgetown) is a fine school but will never be elite." Because this is essentially a question of eliteness articulating as power. And there is empiricism to support the definition of elite status. There are Ivy clubs in the largest cities in the US and in major international locales. If you are an alum of any Ivy or Little Ivy you may get a day pass. In NYC, for instance,  in the heart of Midtown you can book a small suite for less than $200; it is nicer than a similar accommodation at the Four Seasons that costs 4 times as much. A day pass gets you full use of the facilities - fitness, bar, restaurant, meeting rooms, library/reading room. The people you see eating, drinking, or talking in these clubs are the real power brokers in politics, business, the arts. And membership is restricted to graduates of the 8 Ivies, the 15 Little Ivies, MIT, and Stanford.  

[honkytonk]

+1 - The only reason I would like to see it happen because it never had to happen where it not for the ACC.

Conference re-alignment has been going on a lot longer than the ACC's recent additions. And had it not been for the ACC's poaching of VPI, Miami and BC, we would prob still be in CUSA.

Oh, and in the BE, all but the charter members have been poached from other conferences. If Im following you correctly, its ok for the BE to poach teams but not okay for other conferences to do the same. It perfectly fine for MU to jump conferences, but not other schools...  

[keefe]

Seriously, that is a stupid argument.  One could argue that the ACC saw what the future had in store and just was smart enough to do it first.  All this would have happened even if the ACC did not raid the BE; BIG (or any conference for that matter) would have eventually realized more eyeballs = more revenue and this would have started another way.

Plus, Marquette doesn't get into the BE without the ACC raiding it so...

The good news is that the ACC is going to be pillaged and I intend to have a front row seat with a large buttered popcorn and jujubes. I cannot wait for ESPN to interview Coach K to get his reaction to the desiccation of his beloved ACC and hope the network has the proper sense of irony to replay his interview where he expresses his unbridled joy at the ACC's taking Pitt and Syracuse. I suspect his meltdown over Maryland's lack of honor and faith is but a teaser for what we will see in the near future.

[Benny B]

WHO THE F*#$ MOVED THE DAMN GOALPOSTS AGAIN?!?!?

[Pakuni]

Moving goalposts.

In my original post I concluded with, "It (Georgetown) is a fine school but will never be elite." Because this is essentially a question of eliteness articulating as power. And there is empiricism to support the definition of elite status. There are Ivy clubs in the largest cities in the US and in major international locales. If you are an alum of any Ivy or Little Ivy you may get a day pass. In NYC, for instance,  in the heart of Midtown you can book a small suite for less than $200; it is nicer than a similar accommodation at the Four Seasons that costs 4 times as much. A day pass gets you full use of the facilities - fitness, bar, restaurant, meeting rooms, library/reading room. The people you see eating, drinking, or talking in these clubs are the real power brokers in politics, business, the arts. And membership is restricted to graduates of the 8 Ivies, the 15 Little Ivies, MIT, and Stanford.  

So, Georgetown grads can occupy 1/20th of "the most elite club in the nation," aka the U.S. Senate, but they're ultimately powerless because they can't get a day pass to run on the treadmill at an "Ivy Club."
Duly noted.

[Benny B]

So, Georgetown grads can occupy 1/20th of "the most elite club in the nation," aka the U.S. Senate, but they're ultimately powerless because they can't get a day pass to run on the treadmill at an "Ivy Club."
Duly noted.

Meh.  I'd rather run on a treadmill that isn't contaminated with the dried sweat of tens of thousands of d-bags.  Though if you looked at the DNA profile of said perspiration samples, you'd swear only seven people had ever used that machine.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Seriously, that is a stupid argument.  One could argue that the ACC saw what the future had in store and just was smart enough to do it first.  All this would have happened even if the ACC did not raid the BE; BIG (or any conference for that matter) would have eventually realized more eyeballs = more revenue and this would have started another way.

Plus, Marquette doesn't get into the BE without the ACC raiding it so...

I think the ACC poaching Miami & VaTech was OK.  While it hurt the relativly new Big East football brand badly, they at least they fit geographically with the rest of the ACC and provided rivalry to Florida St & UVA so that move was logical.  Now BC to the ACC is just plain absurb as well as the later Pitt & Syracuse move.  Miami & VaTech's departure was enough to get us and the others CUSA gang into the Big East.  

[honkytonk]

I think the ACC poaching Miami & VaTech was OK.  While it hurt the relativly new Big East football brand badly, they at least they fit geographically with the rest of the ACC and provided rivalry to Florida St & UVA so that move was logical.  Now BC to the ACC is just plain absurb as well as the later Pitt & Syracuse move.  Miami & VaTech's departure was enough to get us and the others CUSA gang into the Big East.  

Im glad you straightened out what is acceptable and unacceptable in the world of conference realignment.

[77ncaachamps]

NU replaced Chicago back in the day. I would have to look it up but Chicago is still some sort of member of the Big 10. Not likely they'll bring back their football program but they could field a nasty College Bowl squad.

I knew that, but they're an outlier to the current Big10 profile.

I think Big10-ACC should just merge.

[Bocephys]

I knew that, but they're an outlier to the current Big10 profile.

I think Big10-ACC should just merge.

It worked for AOL/Time Warner

[77ncaachamps]

It worked for AOL/Time Warner

That's why OfficeMax and Office Depot are doing it too!

[Aughnanure]

So...did the leprechaun have any news?

[keefe]

I knew that, but they're an outlier to the current Big10 profile.

I think Big10-ACC should just merge.

Will it be an Exxon-Mobil or a Quaker-Snapple?

A Disney-Pixar or a Sprint-Nextel?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Seriously? Five percent of the U.S. Senate are Georgetown alums.

U.S. Sen. John Barrasso
U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin
U.S. Sen. Mark Kirk
U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy
U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski

What a group

[Eldon]

As I said, Georgetown is a fine school but not among the nation's elite.  I would say in addition to the Ivies I would put schools such as Middlebury, Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Haverford, Connecticut College, Colgate, Hamilton, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Trinity, Vassar, Tufts, and Wesleyan in the elite category.

One thing you learn at an Ivy or Little Ivy is that much of the education is becoming socially competitive.

And I don't think that a politically mixed bag of senators who cannot agree on substantive issues are going to band together to drive legislation on something as trivial as Georgetown's athletic conference affiliation.

For clarification, are you saying that these are the only schools in the elite category (plus MIT)?  If no, I'd interested to hear your criteria--the necessary and sufficient conditions, as it were.  If yes, I would be interested to hear why Chicago is not elite despite being better at literally everything than Dartmouth, Brown, and Cornell.

[keefe]

For clarification, are you saying that these are the only schools in the elite category (plus MIT)?  If no, I'd interested to hear your criteria--the necessary and sufficient conditions, as it were.  If yes, I would be interested to hear why Chicago is not elite despite being better at literally everything than Dartmouth, Brown, and Cornell.

I never said that list was comprehensive. I offered it as prima facie evidence of colleges generally seen as elite. I would consider Chicago to be an elite university. (But my opinion is not relevant in this discussion.) It was over concerns about maintaining that perception of being elite that Chicago dropped out of major college athletics in 1946, even though there was no empiricism proving that playing competitive football in any detracted from the university's primary mission of education. Their president at the time felt that it did so he cancelled athletics and they dropped out of the Big 10. So obviously the leadership of Chicago saw itself as elite and took actions designed to preserve that reputation.

As I mentioned earlier, much of the value of attending an elite college is the social education. And to answer your question, the people who run the Ivy Clubs worldwide have, for whatever reason, set their membership criteria at those 25 colleges. I offered this as one indicator of elite status. Certainly there are others.

Is a kid at Oberlin, Reed, Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, Lafayette, Grinnell, et al not getting a great education?  I am fairly certain they are. Their graduates go on to lead successful, rewarding lives and many make profound contributions in their worlds. But from a social perspective these schools are not seen in the same way as the 25 the Ivy Club recognizes.

My oldest is employed as a professor at Georgetown. He teaches at one of their campuses in Europe. He loves the University, respects the students in many ways, and has no interest in ever leaving. Our family has tremendous respect for Georgetown. A cousin of my father's served in the Kennedy administration and ended up staying in DC as a law professor at Georgetown. But it is not in the same category as the schools I mentioned. Even if its grads comprise 1/20th of the US Senate.