Kerr on NBA age limit - DWade mention

[MU82]

Therein lies the problem. Billy Hunter wants the most money for his players (get them in early). The veteran players, on the other hand, don't want their careers cut short because rosters spots are being filled by kids sitting on the end of the bench who won't make a meaningful contribution for 3 years. In other words, the players have a different preference than the union that represents them.

I would be surprised if the majority, or even a sizable minority, of players feel this way. I'd be interested in your research that backs this up.

[MerrittsMustache]

I would be surprised if the majority, or even a sizable minority, of players feel this way. I'd be interested in your research that backs this up.

Do a Google search. There's plenty of "research" to back it up.

[jmayer1]

On the surface, your comment seems right.  But did you watch Lebron shy away from the ball in big spots in the playoffs?  Perhaps if he went to college where he would have no doubt been THE man and then had some success in a big spot like a conference or NCAA tournament he would have a better mindset in crunch time now.  Not necessarily true, but I think a couple years in college with the right coach does more to develop any player's game then getting thrown right to the NBA wolves straight out of high school does. 

Not to pick on you specifically because I hear this a lot, but I  absolutely can't stand this nonsense about Lebron. He had a bad series against the Mavericks, nobody is denying that. Did you watch him against the Bulls in the series before that, or how he single-handedly carried the Cavs past the Pistons to the finals, or his game 7 against the Celtics. Lebron's been an absolute stud, the best player since Jordan, the guy didn't need any fu#king college. Any time he would have spent in college would have been robbing basketball fans of witnessing his greatness.

I wonder how much Jordan would get roasted in today's sports society at the same age--probably a bunch of bs about how he doesn't make his teammates better and shoots too much. There's a decent likelihood Lebron will be on the same title pace as MJ was (both won/may win their 1st title in their age 27 season).

[MU82]

Do a Google search. There's plenty of "research" to back it up.

I did a Google search of Billy Hunter early entry NBA. The first two pages contained not one word of such an intra-union disagreement on this issue. I don't have enough time or interest to search any more. So, let's just assume I'm right and move on! 

[Hoopaloop]

Georgetown, Michigan St (twice), Louisville (twice), Villanova, Arizona, Syracuse, UConn (thrice), Florida (twice).

That's 20 of 40 non blue-bloods.

Are you saying these schools in this list are blue-bloods or are not? 

[CTWarrior]

He had a bad series against the Mavericks, nobody is denying that. Did you watch him against the Bulls in the series before that, or how he single-handedly carried the Cavs past the Pistons to the finals, or his game 7 against the Celtics.

It's not that he had a bad series against the Mavs, it's that he refused to shoot or do pretty much anything in the 4th quarter.  Say what you want about Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan or a lot of other guys, but they never shrunk from the big moment.  I watched him quit in his last playoff series with the Cavs, too.  There is no doubt he's the most talented player and little doubt he's the best player right now, but there are lots of players (Wade among them) in whose hands I'd rather the ball be when the game is on the line. 

I think a better analogy for Lebron is Wilt Chamberlain, who was a force of nature for his time and dominated ball games but took a long time to win a title and finished with 2.

Of course I can't be sure that time in college would have made any difference in Lebron's game, but I still think a year or two with a guy like Izzo or Coach K would have been beneficial for him.  Probably cost him some money, but money is the least of Lebron's concerns.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Not to get political, but we have a society where we trust 18 year olds to fight for our freedom and be able to vote to determine the direction of our country, but they are not mature enough to make a decision about personally profiting on their god given individual athletic talents?  This is about special interests.  Let the free market reign like in baseball.

[dgies9156]

Of course, a lot of the very best players (Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Rose, Westrbook, Howard, Griffin, Love, Chandler, Bynum, Anthony) never went to college or only went 1 year.

I am fine with the current age minimum. If guys are good enough to play in the NBA, there's no reason they shouldn't have that right. This isn't football we're talking about where guys could get hurt if they aren't physically ready.

Yeah, but the greatest players of all time did -- Jordan, Jabbar, Johnson, Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, Havilchek, West.....

Maybe some of these guys didn't go all four years, but most did and their seasoning as a pro was outstanding. Heck, Abdul Jabbar led the Bucks to an NBA Championship in his SECOND year. That's because he played for what may have been the best basketball program ever -- John Wooden at UCLA.

Michael Jordan had three years at UNC with Dean Smith and had an immediate impact on the Bulls. He brought a dead, drug infested franchise back to life. Don't tell me Dean Smith and the UNC program didn't have a solid impact. And then there's Magic and his three years at Michigan State, or DWade and his two years at Marquette.

All in favor of an NBA age limit here. Very, very few high schoolers are solid enough to enter the NBA and most are sold a bill of goods.

[MerrittsMustache]

Are you saying these schools in this list are blue-bloods or are not? 

Not.

[MerrittsMustache]

It's not that he had a bad series against the Mavs, it's that he refused to shoot or do pretty much anything in the 4th quarter.  Say what you want about Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan or a lot of other guys, but they never shrunk from the big moment.  I watched him quit in his last playoff series with the Cavs, too.  There is no doubt he's the most talented player and little doubt he's the best player right now, but there are lots of players (Wade among them) in whose hands I'd rather the ball be when the game is on the line. 

I think a better analogy for Lebron is Wilt Chamberlain, who was a force of nature for his time and dominated ball games but took a long time to win a title and finished with 2.

Of course I can't be sure that time in college would have made any difference in Lebron's game, but I still think a year or two with a guy like Izzo or Coach K would have been beneficial for him.  Probably cost him some money, but money is the least of Lebron's concerns.

BINGO! Perfect analogy. Wilt was possibly the most physically gifted player in history, but he paid too much attention to what other people thought (i.e. he led the league in assists because some thought he shot too much) and just didn't have that killer instinct.

I had said on another thread that Lebron and Kobe have low basketball IQs but, thinking about that more, it was poor wording on my part. It's not a matter of basketball IQ, it's more a matter of basketball maturity. Both guys have quit on their teams in playoff games, both guys are me-first people, both guys struggle knowing when/how to get others involved, both guys have tremendous ability but can't always get it to fit into the team concept, both guys are insanely concerned about the public perception of them. Kobe has definitely "matured" some during his time in the NBA but that maturation process is something that could have laregly taken place over a 2-years stretch at Duke.

Lebron is much more interesting because he has a huge ego but, deep down, he just wants to be one of the guys (watch "More Than a Game" if you don't believe me). He still surrounds himself with his HS buddies who are basically yes men who are ill-equipped to be in charge of the "business" that is Lebron James. Think "The Decision" still happens if Lebron had spent 2 years away from his childhood buddies and with a well-respected college coach? I don't.

The age limit is not all about ability. It's also about maturity.

[RawdogDX]

Of course, a lot of the very best players (Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Rose, Westrbook, Howard, Griffin, Love, Chandler, Bynum, Anthony) never went to college or only went 1 year.

I am fine with the current age minimum. If guys are good enough to play in the NBA, there's no reason they shouldn't have that right. This isn't football we're talking about where guys could get hurt if they aren't physically ready.

Take kobe out of that list and I don't see many rings.

But that doesn't matter since this isn't about the players.  A group of business men, feel like it would be a smart business move to hire people with a certain level of college or other post high school job experience.  People are fine with that theory in every industry but basketball.  When nba owners are hiring graphic designers, engineers, marketing people or accountants they don't hire 18 year olds.  There are plenty of 24-29 year old graphic designers out there that could have skipped school and still been at the top of their profession today.  They were also physically ready with no danger of being hurt at 18.

[jesmu84]

Let the free market reign like in baseball.

So, declare after high school or be forced into 3 years of college? I actually wouldn't mind that.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Watched Andrew Bynum last night and it confirms the thoughts here. vey immature and little basketball awareness. been frustrated all year at his inability to shift to the weakside and defend the basket or recognise double and triple teams and pass the ball. Players need a few more years of coaching aftr HS  before their skills match their abilities

[jmayer1]

Watched Andrew Bynum last night and it confirms the thoughts here. vey immature and little basketball awareness. been frustrated all year at his inability to shift to the weakside and defend the basket or recognise double and triple teams and pass the ball. Players need a few more years of coaching aftr HS  before their skills match their abilities

If only they had coaches in the NBA.

The whole argument against allowing kids to skip school for the NBA is ridiculous. If teams think they are ready and want to draft them, they should have that right. The only thing raising the age minimum would do is protect NBA GMs from themselves.

If a company wanted to hire a HS kid as an accountant or engineer, they could. Of course they don't because those fields require prerequisite knowledge that can't be learned on the fly but has to be taught by knowledgeable professors. Basketball (or any sports) don't work like that. These guys know how to play, it's just a matter of whether or not they are good enough at that age or need to progress a bit more. However, that decision shouldn't be unilaterally made for them. Either the kids or the scouts/coaches who are advising these kids should be able to make that decision.

[MerrittsMustache]

So, declare after high school or be forced into 3 years of college? I actually wouldn't mind that.

It does sound interesting but baseball and basketball are very different in terms of development.

The MLB Draft has 60 rounds and over 1,500 players are selected. An overwhelming number of the players drafted know that they're going to spend 5+ years in various levels within the minors before possibly even getting a sniff of the big leagues and 90% of them won't make it at all. Players can go to college for 3 years to hone their skills and get an education as opposed to playing for peanuts in the minors for those 3 years.

If a HS basketball player is selected in the NBA Draft, he'll likely going to get at least a million dollar deal and be on an NBA roster from day 1. What's the motivation to go to college for 3 years if there's a 7-figure deal on the table? It's the same reason why so many HS players drafted early in the MLB Draft bail on their scholarships to go pro. If a HS basketball player was told that if he gets drafted, he'll play in a minor league system for 5 seasons making $20k a year, it would obviously be a much tougher decision (after all, Kentucky pays more than that - sorry, it was too easy).

The NBA needs to create a better minor league system than the D league. The obvious problem is that creating and maintaining a minor league costs money and they already have a free "minor league" in the NCAA.

[MerrittsMustache]

If only they had coaches in the NBA.

The whole argument against allowing kids to skip school for the NBA is ridiculous. If teams think they are ready and want to draft them, they should have that right. The only thing raising the age minimum would do is protect NBA GMs from themselves.

If a company wanted to hire a HS kid as an accountant or engineer, they could. Of course they don't because those fields require prerequisite knowledge that can't be learned on the fly but has to be taught by knowledgeable professors. Basketball (or any sports) don't work like that. These guys know how to play, it's just a matter of whether or not they are good enough at that age or need to progress a bit more. However, that decision shouldn't be unilaterally made for them. Either the kids or the scouts/coaches who are advising these kids should be able to make that decision.

If that was the case, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

[RawdogDX]

If only they had coaches in the NBA.

The whole argument against allowing kids to skip school for the NBA is ridiculous. If teams think they are ready and want to draft them, they should have that right. The only thing raising the age minimum would do is protect NBA GMs from themselves.

If a company wanted to hire a HS kid as an accountant or engineer, they could. Of course they don't because those fields require prerequisite knowledge that can't be learned on the fly but has to be taught by knowledgeable professors. Basketball (or any sports) don't work like that. These guys know how to play, it's just a matter of whether or not they are good enough at that age or need to progress a bit more. However, that decision shouldn't be unilaterally made for them. Either the kids or the scouts/coaches who are advising these kids should be able to make that decision.

Yeah, because there isn't a single kid out there that could be a graphic designer without a college degree.  Are you out bitching about some company not hiring that guy?  there isn't a single kid who could be a cop?  fix an ac unit? (tech school) plumb?(6 year apprenticeship!?!?!)

Your argument is bull crap.  The accounting field has 1000 people who could have been lebron of accounting, they're just not on espn so you don't think they exist.  Everyone else, who is amazingly ahead of the rest of the population in their given field, have times when people don't want to take a risk on them when they are 'too' young.  They get passed over, they get offered less.

No decision is being made unilaterally.  They can work at a gas station, go to college, or experience a foreign country while getting paid like no one else from their neighborhood.  There is just 31 companies, in their field, that aren't interested with people with their level of experience. Why shouldn't an nba owner have the right to not pay 18 year olds millions?

waaa waaa to kids who hate the thought of being a college stud for 2 years or making a few hundred k while hitting czech girls.  who here wouldn't have traded for that deal?

[Hoopaloop]

Not to get political, but we have a society where we trust 18 year olds to fight for our freedom and be able to vote to determine the direction of our country, but they are not mature enough to make a decision about personally profiting on their god given individual athletic talents?  This is about special interests.  Let the free market reign like in baseball.

We do trust 18 year olds under the right circumstances to fight for this country and vote, but that doesn't mean they are mature people.  Some are but we all know many 18 year olds (25 year olds for that matter) that aren't very mature.

Maturity doesn't magically happen with a calendar page turned. 

[jmayer1]

Yeah, because there isn't a single kid out there that could be a graphic designer without a college degree.  Are you out bitching about some company not hiring that guy?  there isn't a single kid who could be a cop?  fix an ac unit? (tech school) plumb?(6 year apprenticeship!?!?!)

Your argument is bull crap.  The accounting field has 1000 people who could have been lebron of accounting, they're just not on espn so you don't think they exist.  Everyone else, who is amazingly ahead of the rest of the population in their given field, have times when people don't want to take a risk on them when they are 'too' young.  They get passed over, they get offered less.

No decision is being made unilaterally.  They can work at a gas station, go to college, or experience a foreign country while getting paid like no one else from their neighborhood.  There is just 31 companies, in their field, that aren't interested with people with their level of experience. Why shouldn't an nba owner have the right to not pay 18 year olds millions?

waaa waaa to kids who hate the thought of being a college stud for 2 years or making a few hundred k while hitting czech girls.  who here wouldn't have traded for that deal?

Was this english? That was tough to read.

I'm talking about professional jobs. There is no kid that could come straight out of high school and pass a professional exam (accountant, engineer, lawyer, doctor, nurse..etc). That's why companies don't and won't hire kids straight out of high school for these positions.

However, that point aside, none of the positions you mentioned (cop, graphic designer, plumber, hvac tech) would preclude a company from hiring somebody straight out of high school and giving them on the job training. However, if companies aren't interested in hiring kids without experience that's their prerogative, there is no rule that prevents them from doing this.

If 31 teams teams don't want to hire 18 year olds to play in the league then they don't have to (before the mid 90's this very rarely happened) but why should there be a rule that disallows this? I can't think of another profession, other than sports and certain political positions, that imposes a unilateral age minimum above standard labor laws. The fact is there are 31 teams who are very interested in hiring 18 year olds, but aren't allowed because there was some silly rule put in place by the league to protect the GM's from themselves.

[RawdogDX]

If 31 teams teams don't want to hire 18 year olds to play in the league then they don't have to (before the mid 90's this very rarely happened) but why should there be a rule that disallows this? I can't think of another profession, other than sports and certain political positions, that imposes a unilateral age minimum above standard labor laws. The fact is there are 31 teams who are very interested in hiring 18 year olds, but aren't allowed because there was some silly rule put in place by the league to protect the GM's from themselves.

1)  "why should there be a rule that disallows this?"
2)  " there was some silly rule put in place by the league to protect the GM's from themselves."

Seems like you answered your question. 
The owners think it is good for business to have the rule.  They run the business.  They made the rule.  They take the risk and get rewards.  They don't want to give millions of dollars out to 18 year olds any more.  Who are you to call that decision silly?

[Lennys Tap]

1)  "why should there be a rule that disallows this?"
2)  " there was some silly rule put in place by the league to protect the GM's from themselves."

Seems like you answered your question. 
The owners think it is good for business to have the rule.  They run the business.  They made the rule.  They take the risk and get rewards.  They don't want to give millions of dollars out to 18 year olds any more.  Who are you to call that decision silly?

You nailed it. The more guess work NBA GMs can eliminate the easier their decisions. 19 year olds are a gamble, but after a year in a college weight room, a year of playing high level competition, a year of "character revealed" away from home, etc., they're less a gamble than 18 year old high school kids. Colleges are more than eager to serve as a kind of free "minor league", so why not? I wouldn't be surprised if raising the age limit to 20 is the next step.

[lab_warrior]

FYI, Deadspin's Timothy Burke did a nice counterpoint to Kerr's article here.  It's a good read. 

http://deadspin.com/5908998/before-steve-kerr-sends-19+year+old-players-back-to-college-he-should-try-some-academic-research-himself