A Catholic School in the Final Four???

[SoCalEagle]

Well, I ask myself the same question around this time each year: will a Catholic school make it to the Final Four?  When I was a kid, it seemed like at least one made it every year.  Marquette, DePaul, Notre Dame, Georgetown, wasn't there always one Catholic school in the FF? 

My research tells me that nine different Catholic schools went to the FF during the 70s and 80s.  Georgetown went three times; MU and Villanova each went twice; Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's, DePaul, Notre Dame, and St. Bonaventure each had one appearance.  In the period spanning 1970 to 1989 there was a Catholic school in the FF 12 out of 20 years. 

However, since 1989 there has been only one Catholic school in the FF: Marquette University.  That's pretty amazing.  Only one Catholic school in the FF in the last 18 years!!! 

My take: Of the nine Catholic schools (not counting Niagara who is playing in the play-in game) in the Tournament this year, Georgetown has the best chance to get there.  However, I don't think they will make it out of the East bracket which, in my assessment, is the toughest of the four.  I think MU will remain the only Catholic school to make it to the FF in two decades.   

Well, what do you think, will a Catholic school make it to the Final Four this year???

[Thomas' Danish Delight]

The East bracket is indeed the most challenging bracket.  However, I have Georgetown coming out on top of that one.

I hate to say it (and I pray I'm wrong), but I see the East as a toss up between Georgetown, unc, and texas.  unc is simply not all they're cracked up to be, and me likey the Jeff Green and Kevin Durant match up. 

I am, however, quietly (well, not so quietly anymore since y'all know now) hoping for a March Miracle with Marquette making it to atleast the Elite Eight sans McNeal.

[MUtrain]

How about Jesuit success.  7 teams in the tournament this year, as far as I know, which is pretty incredible IMO (though this number seems to be fairly consistent, usually in the 6-8 range).

Holy Cross (13)
Gonzaga (10)
Marquette (8)
Boston College (7)
Georgetown (2)
Xavier (9)
Creighton (10)

According to the AJCU, there are 28 Jesuit colleges/universities in the country, 19 that participate in D-1 basketball.  7/19, 6/16... Jesuit schools as a group are doing just about as well as the Big East this year .  In addition, Jesuit schools have had decent success in the tournament.  Not necessarily winning titles (though there are a few, including the old Bill Russell San Francisco teams), but as cinderellas- the Gonzagas (back before they seemed to be consistently overrated), the Xaviers, etc... and maybe I'm just a bit biased, but I can see an above .500 record for the collection of teams above in this year's tournament (counting on a G-town run).

[Avenue Commons]

The obvious correlation (to me anyways) is that the Catholic schools (except for BC and ND) don't have football and therefore don't have football money. It's the only explanation.

Makes me even more proud of Marquette.

Gonzaga was close in 2004.

As for this year I have G'Town winning it all in my bracket so, yeah, I think a Catholic school can make it this year.

[Mayor McCheese]

I have Georgetown in the championship game, which hopefully happens (so Jeff Green leaves possibly).

[SoCalEagle]

Hey MUtrain:

What about the Jesuit school's starting their own pre-season tournament?  You could have it rotate between the West Coast, East Coast, and Midwest.  Perhaps a four team tournament where no team could participate more than 2 years in a row in order to give other schools a chance at playing.   

[Mayor McCheese]

or could make it like the Pre-Season NIT... but with just Jesuit schools

[MUCHI814]

I've thought the same thing, but I always thought that conference teams cannot play each other before the regular season, if they are scheduled to play later. I am not sure about that, but I definitely agree that a Jesuit tourney would be great.

[bma725]

I've thought the same thing, but I always thought that conference teams cannot play each other before the regular season, if they are scheduled to play later. I am not sure about that, but I definitely agree that a Jesuit tourney would be great.

Correct, schools that are in the same conference cannot play in the same pre-conference tourney.  Which really ruins it for the idea of a Jesuit tourney.  There are 19 Jesuit schools in Division 1 basketball.  Of those, only 3 are not in a conference with another Jesuit school.

ACC- Boston College
Big East- Marquette and Georgetown
Metro Atlantic- Canisius, Fairfield, Loyola(MD), St. Peters
Colonial-Holy Cross
Missouri Valley- Creighton
Atlantic 10- Fordham, Saint Louis, St. Joseph's, Xavier
West Coast- Gonzaga, USF, Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara
Horizon- Detroit-Mercy, Loyola-Chicago

So basically the only schools that would even be able to do it every year would be Creighton, Holy Cross and Boston College.  You'd have to rotate schools every year, it would probably have to be played at a school with a big enough arena and in a big enough city to make money, and then you have to factor in the contracts and budgets of 19 different schools.

It's a nice idea, but the logistics of it are a nightmare, and consequently make it incredibly unlikely.

[Mayor McCheese]

I've thought the same thing, but I always thought that conference teams cannot play each other before the regular season, if they are scheduled to play later. I am not sure about that, but I definitely agree that a Jesuit tourney would be great.

Correct, schools that are in the same conference cannot play in the same pre-conference tourney.  Which really ruins it for the idea of a Jesuit tourney.  There are 19 Jesuit schools in Division 1 basketball.  Of those, only 3 are not in a conference with another Jesuit school.

ACC- Boston College
Big East- Marquette and Georgetown
Metro Atlantic- Canisius, Fairfield, Loyola(MD), St. Peters
Colonial-Holy Cross
Missouri Valley- Creighton
Atlantic 10- Fordham, Saint Louis, St. Joseph's, Xavier
West Coast- Gonzaga, USF, Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara
Horizon- Detroit-Mercy, Loyola-Chicago

So basically the only schools that would even be able to do it every year would be Creighton, Holy Cross and Boston College.  You'd have to rotate schools every year, it would probably have to be played at a school with a big enough arena and in a big enough city to make money, and then you have to factor in the contracts and budgets of 19 different schools.

It's a nice idea, but the logistics of it are a nightmare, and consequently make it incredibly unlikely.

well there are 8 conferences.. so you could make an 8 team tourney, and could be very fun to watch...

Boston College, Marquette, Gonzaga, Holy Cross, Creighton, Xavier, Canisius, Loyola-Chicago.... sounds entertaining to me.

[bma725]

That's a nice idea, but then other NCAA rules come into play.  There's a rule in place that allows 27 regular season games plus one exempt tournament of up to four games(the four games count as just one in the exempt rule).  The NCAA has a rule that teams can only play in exempt tournaments twice in a 4 year period. 

So while you could rotate the teams that are in the same conference, that would mean that Creighton, Holy Cross and BC could only play every couple of years.  That would leave you with teams from 5 conferences, and since you can't pick two from the same one, how do you decided which conference gets left out that year....and if you do that, do you really think teams from that conference are going to want to play in the tournament to begin with?

Again, it's a nice thought, but the logistics of schedule make it virtually impossible.

[Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup]

8 team tournament means Holy Cross and Creighton play every year.

Plus, even if we did it, I'll bet people on the boards will be bitching come late august/september about "MU having to play Niagra! Why don't we start a home-and-home with Duke?"

[MARQKC]

I've got 'Nova and G'town both going to the FF, with G'town beating (I know, I know, please forgive me) Bucky in the final. Saw G'town in the Big East. Anything can happen in a tournament, but Thompson III has Hibbert, Green, et. al., on a juggernaut.

There used to be a post-season Catholic tournament back in the 40s, I believe. A Jesuit pre-season would be fun, but in addition to all the aforementioned barriers, there's the reality that some of those teams won't want the chance to lose to some of those other teams. I've heard from people supposedly close to the team that TC would never schedule Creighton, for example. "Why?" I asked. "Because he doesn't want to lose." (And I saw Creighton beat Bradley this year in Omaha, and, if true, TC has a point. Altman runs a pretty good ship in the mid-major Valley, and I've got them going to Sweet 16 before losing to Louisville.)

[bma725]

8 team tournament means Holy Cross and Creighton play every year.

They can't play every year, that was my point.  The rule allows teams to participate in exempt tournaments only twice in a four year period.  So Holy Cross, Creighton and BC wouldn't be allowed to play every year. 

It's a longshot to ever happen unless the rules are changed.  MU hasn't even played all of the Jesuit schools out there, even in just a normal pre-conference game.  That would be a starting point, getting games with Fairfield, St. Joe's, and Loyola-Maryland.  They've played Loyola-New Orleans which is NAIA, John Carroll which is in D3, Regis which is in D2....but haven't even played all the Jesuit D1 schools.

[bma725]

\There used to be a post-season Catholic tournament back in the 40s, I believe. A Jesuit pre-season would be fun, but in addition to all the aforementioned barriers, there's the reality that some of those teams won't want the chance to lose to some of those other teams. I've heard from people supposedly close to the team that TC would never schedule Creighton, for example. "Why?" I asked. "Because he doesn't want to lose." (And I saw Creighton beat Bradley this year in Omaha, and, if true, TC has a point. Altman runs a pretty good ship in the mid-major Valley, and I've got them going to Sweet 16 before losing to Louisville.)

He'll never schedule them, Gonzaga doesn't want to schedule them, BC doesn't want to schedule them etc.  The bigger Jesuit schools don't want to face the mid-level ones.  They'd face the lower level ones, but that's about it.  There's been some rumblings about an all Jesuit tournament from schools in the past, but it's always been the mid-level schools that want to do it...Creighton, Xavier, Saint Louis etc.  The higher level schools want nothing to do with it, and the lower level ones just get brought along for the ride.

[SoCalEagle]

And then there was one.  All the Catholic schools are out, except Georgetown.  It will be intersting to see if we will continue to hold the distinction of being the only Catholic school to make it to the FF since 1989. 

[bma725]

And then there was one.  All the Catholic schools are out, except Georgetown.  It will be intersting to see if we will continue to hold the distinction of being the only Catholic school to make it to the FF since 1989. 

There are some within the Jesuit community who would argue that Georgetown hasn't really been a Catholic school since appointing a lay person as president in 2001.

[herboturbo]

A couple things first,  a judge got rid of the 2 in 4 rule last year or the year before, hence us being in the GAS (2005), CBE (2006), and Maui (2007).  Also someone talked about a post-season catholic tourney in the 40's - well it went a bit longer than that which is proved true by the 1952 championship banner we have hanging in the BC.

Now here's my two cents on this topic.  If every jezzie school would agree to have such a tournament ( and I severely doubt that BC, MU, GT, and Gonzaga at this time would agree)  the only way to have a tourney is a 5 team round robin format where the team with the best record at the end wins.  8 team means to many teams in each year, 6 team doesn't work, and 4 team is just too small.  With 5 teams you would have to move BC in a line with MU and GT, and then move Holy Cross and Creighton onto another line as well, most likely the Horizon line and you would get something like this for teams in a tourney:

Big East/ACC- Marquette, Georgetown,  Boston College
Metro Atlantic- Canisius, Fairfield, Loyola(MD), St. Peters
Atlantic 10- Fordham, Saint Louis, St. Joseph's, Xavier
West Coast- Gonzaga, USF, Loyola Marymount, Santa Clara
Horizon/Missouri Valley/Colonial- Detroit-Mercy, Loyola-Chicago, Holy Cross, Creighton


Then you have to go about getting a TV contract to show the games to make the tourney worthwhile - but how do you convince a national TV carrier to pick up 2 or 3 games of this tourney every year when there's a chance there might be 1 or even 0 games worth televising (imagine a  tourney of BC, st peters, Fordham, Marymount, and Holy Cross - where's the marquee game at?) 

Bottom line: It ain't happening

[Pardner]

Interesting topic...I would love to see this set-up.  Even going back further, Loyola-Chicago won the NCAA's in the 60's...while joining conferences was good overall (TV $, # of NCAA bids  from the big conferences, overall program recruiting), did the Catholic schools become less competitive over the long run by giving up their independent status?  While conferences are better for business in the long-term  (and more consistent in predicting revenue, scheduling, NCAA bid politics), did we lose an edge somewhere along the line by not being able to play teams across the country? 

You had a bunch of great coaches back then too that stayed with the school:  Al, Digger, Ray, Little Louie, Rollie, etc.).  GU's great years were out of the BE, but I think the others were built off being indies.  I am not advocating going back to an independent, but I do think that that format would bring out some great games.  I even think back in the day, they had a National Catholic Championship