Vander

[ATL MU Warrior]

Not trying to win anything...get a life.  I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so.  You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about.  Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen.  Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.

Well if you are looking for an intelligent conversation about the above, why don't you provide a list of coaches and how they use freshman to get us started.  Once you realize that this is impossible, I think you will understand why this thread is going the way it is. 

[BCHoopster]

Vander will be fine, maybe next year or the year after.  He does not know when to shoot right now and I am sure an airball
on his first shot shocks him as much as MU fans.  Besides the 2 freshman on UConn, I am sure other freshman are in the same
situation as MU.  West Virginia, Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, Louisville, and most others do not have an impact freshman in
there rotation.  You need upper classman.  That is why a JC transfer like Jae really works.  Next year Mu brings in a transfer who
will take Butlers position, again another upper classman.  Next years biggest issue might be the point.  Cadougan will have to learn
how to shot shoots other than lay-ups.

[bilsu]

I'm starting to think that while the U18 team was great for him to play in, it may have held back his offense. His shot needs to be completely retooled and there just wasn't enough time before practices started. He's got a lot of work to do on his jump shot over the offseason

You would know he could not shoot, if you watched the high school state championship game last year. He tried but could not take over that game and they got blown out. Vander is quick, but he is playing against players in the Big East that are also quick.

[willie warrior]

It is time that some start realizing he was vastly overrated. He still will develop into a good player--we all hope, but he is nowhere near his reputation. It is my understanding he averaged about 17 ppg his senior year in HS. He also was not even Mr. Basketball in Wisc., so why so many are frustrated by what is happening now is beyond me.
Face it, he was overrated coming out of HS and needs a lot of work. He will need to devlop his shot and defensive skills better. He cerrtainly can do it, but right now he is lost out there.

Remember one of Al McGuire's old sayings--the best thing about Freshman is that they become Sophs.

[mugrad2006]

Was Vander overrated, or did we all just build up unrealistic expectations for him?  I for one have been pleased with how he's come along this, particularly when comparing his performance relative to other top tier recruits not names Jared Sullinger. 

My view is that we all built up his reputation past anything that he could be expected to accomplish, and he's probably right where he should be, especially since his high ranking was based much more upon his athletic ability, tenacious defense, and upside vs. his offensive game.

[MarquetteDano]

It is time that some start realizing he was vastly overrated. He still will develop into a good player--we all hope, but he is nowhere near his reputation. It is my understanding he averaged about 17 ppg his senior year in HS. He also was not even Mr. Basketball in Wisc., so why so many are frustrated by what is happening now is beyond me.
Face it, he was overrated coming out of HS and needs a lot of work. He will need to devlop his shot and defensive skills better. He cerrtainly can do it, but right now he is lost out there.

Remember one of Al McGuire's old sayings--the best thing about Freshman is that they become Sophs.

Actually, I would say he exceeded my expecations in the non-conference portion of the schedule.  Now he has underperformed the Big East portion.  I just have a feeling that he will have a good last 6-7 games to end the season.  I know he isn't playing great right now, but there is too much talent there not to turn it around.

And I do believe he will be very good next year.  A lock for the most improved player along with Gardner.

[mu-rara]

Not trying to win anything...get a life.  I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so.  You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about.  Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen.  Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.

Coaches don't expect much from freshman, unless they are Harrison Barnes, John Wall or a few others.  Some develop faster, and overachieve, earning PT.

I'm not sure what you were expecting from VB.  Did you ever see him play in HS?  He was great because he was a tremendous athlete.  He played very good defense, and got to the hoop.  He had a lousy shot then.  I'm sure that he knew he had to work on shooting, and I'm sure Buzz and the MU assistants all knew it and told him so.  He has great upside becuase of his athleticism.  You  I expect a very good Marquette career (He kinda reminds me of Tony Smith, but Tony played a lot as a freshman because he played on a much less talented team).

TJ Bray was Mr. Basketball last year because he had a great all around game....and he has played in most or all of Princeton's games as a freshman.  He may have more impact as a freshman, but not nearly the upside athletically.  (Confession: love TJ Bray as a kid and player...not quick or athletic enough to play BE hoops)

Point: VB is not Wall or Harrison (the only type who are impact players as freshman)...he will be a quality player for MU...He is developing as the vast majority of freshman do...and coaches never want to depend on freshman, but will play them if it is earned.  VB has earned PT on defense.

[Tugg Speedman]

Regarding Harrison Barnes.  He is not close to John Wall.  (which is one of the reason UNC has not been ranked in February for the second year in a row). 

See his stats versus Vander, only marginally better at this point.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette

Barnes is NOT lighting the world on fire.

[Goose]

Vander has all of the tools needed to be impact player down the road. Obviously his confidence and his teammates confidence in him is not high right now. You can teach his talent and improved shooting will happen. To small degree he reminds me of Doc Rivers while he was at MU. Doc had great talent, great defender and poor shooting touch eary in his career. If you watched Doc you knew he was going to be really good and VB has same look to me.

[warriors1965]

If Blue's outside shot had deteriorated so badly by his senior year of HS, why didn't he work out the kinks last summer?

This is nowhere close to the DJO situation since he had plenty of success shooting the ball last season.  

I know everyone seems to think an outside shot is easy to fix, but it's not when it's been allowed to get incredibly screwed up mechanically for years.

[🏀]

I know everyone seems to think an outside shot is easy to fix, but it's not when it's been allowed to get incredibly screwed up mechanically for years.

Wrong. A jump shot is very easily fixed through practice, coaching and repetition. However, it will not be fixed in season, as time needs to be spent elsewhere. You cannot fix Vander's awareness and vision.

For example, see McNeal, Jerel.

[GGGG]

Not trying to win anything...get a life.  I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so.  You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about.  Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen.  Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.

I don't think the issue is how Buzz uses freshmen.  Buzz has more options at his disposal - experienced college basketball players.  Unless they are one and done types, freshmen simply don't see a lot of playing time in major college basketball, and when they see the floor they generally struggle.

[mu-rara]

Regarding Harrison Barnes.  He is not close to John Wall.  (which is one of the reason UNC has not been ranked in February for the second year in a row).  

See his stats versus Vander, only marginally better at this point.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette

Barnes is NOT lighting the world on fire.

I would argue that his stats are more than marginally better.  So Far, on average he is not lighting the world on fire, but he has had some big games.  He is closer to a finished product than Vander at this point.

[CTWarrior]

The same "expert analysis" about what is wrong with VB is pretty much the same "expert analysis" about what was wrong with DJO's shot earlier this year.

The big difference is that Blue's shot "looks" awful.  It looks terrible leaving his hand.  Like too much palm and not enough fingertips or something.  DJO has a nice stroke, so you feel like when he's shooting poorly he's going to come out of it.  When you see something that looks like it is going to be terrible, and subsequently is terrible, it's natural to assume the two are related.

[GGGG]

The big difference is that Blue's shot "looks" awful.  It looks terrible leaving his hand.  Like too much palm and not enough fingertips or something.  DJO has a nice stroke, so you feel like when he's shooting poorly he's going to come out of it.  When you see something that looks like it is going to be terrible, and subsequently is terrible, it's natural too assume the two are related.

Vander's shot starts at his chest.  His release is too far in front of his head, and not above his head.