what happened to jmay??

[Skatastrophy]

Often there's a fine line between the two and it says infinitely more about the insulter than the insulted.

Inferring what someone *actually* meant from a post on the internet is a fool's errand.  I, personally, have taken the tack of assuming the best of people's statements.  Otherwise I end up wasting entire days being offended over an incident where no personal offense was meant.

Unless you're just bored.  If that's the case, carry on

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I think Lenny is trying to say that the stain left on Indiana by the Sampson situation will never be removed. You can fire the AD, remove the coaching staff, get rid of the players, but it's still there. Just as Chicos continues to cite transgressions in Madison, people will not forget that it was Indiana University that hired Kelvin Sampson and looked the other way when he was violating rules. When people think Indiana now, they think scandal. They no longer think of the farmboy militia that Bobby Knight molded into Big Ten contenders year after year. Similarly, if Kentucky hired Coach K, people wouldn't forget the filth that is there now. Same way with Tennessee. If they went and hired Tom Izzo, people wouldn't think they'd cleaned up their act, they'd think Izzo had gone over to the dark side.

I used to love Indiana basketball. Obviously, that's no longer the case.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

One more thing, and it may pain some people to hear it, but Wisconsin basketball has become what Indiana once was. What should irritate Indiana people is they hired somebody to try to make them Michigan State. Imagine that! Indiana trying to be Michigan State? Sacrilege!

[GGGG]

I think Lenny is trying to say that the stain left on Indiana by the Sampson situation will never be removed.

I know what he's trying to say...and he's wrong.

[hairy worthen]

I know what he's trying to say...and he's wrong.

So who pissed the longest?

[Lennys Tap]

I think Lenny is trying to say that the stain left on Indiana by the Sampson situation will never be removed. You can fire the AD, remove the coaching staff, get rid of the players, but it's still there. Just as Chicos continues to cite transgressions in Madison, people will not forget that it was Indiana University that hired Kelvin Sampson and looked the other way when he was violating rules. When people think Indiana now, they think scandal. They no longer think of the farmboy militia that Bobby Knight molded into Big Ten contenders year after year. Similarly, if Kentucky hired Coach K, people wouldn't forget the filth that is there now. Same way with Tennessee. If they went and hired Tom Izzo, people wouldn't think they'd cleaned up their act, they'd think Izzo had gone over to the dark side.

I used to love Indiana basketball. Obviously, that's no longer the case.

Thanks for making my argument much better than I evidently made it myself. I too used to love Indiana basketball. My parents both graduated from IU and my Grandmother used to work for the university. She gave me a basketball signed by the 1960 team that I still cherish. Archie Dees, Walt Bellamy, Jimmy Rayl, etc. were heroes growing up. When I went to MU, Indiana dropped to my second favorite team, a spot they retained until this whole Sampson business. And they didn't lose me when Sampson got caught (the point at which most of their fandom became outraged). They lost me the day he was hired. It showed me that the institution had totally lost their moral compass. You don't even think about hiring a Kelvin Sampson unless there's a widespread culture of corruption. And by the way, President Herbert was neither fired nor did he resign in disgrace over the Sampson matter. He retired in July of 2007 as he had announced he would in January of 2006. His exit was not part of any clean up by Indiana.

[warriors1991]

I know he was kind of a head case but I still kind of felt bad for JMay being stuck dealing with a dad like that and now a coach like Pearl.

So I saw the title of this thread and was curious what had been happening with him.....

Turns out the thread wasn't about JMay after all.

Is there any way the moderators of MUScoop can put a huge asterisk next to any thread topic when it's officially jumped the shark and been hijacked into an exhausting and never-ending discussion about Crean, Indiana, and blah blah blah. That way I and many others can be sure not to read all these same arguments over and over, and you won't waste everyone else's time who is trying to read about and discuss.........

MARQUETTE BASKETBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dawson Rental]

ya never know-jmay could become the ncaa's first 6'7 260lb. playmakin #2.  can you imagine the nasty pick and rolls set up top.  kind of like havin the fridge on the floor openning up holes to the hoop  yowsa!!  tim will be boning out

Or he could become the first Division I player to take a gun out onto to court and shoot an official.

(psssst neither or these are EVER gonna happen, so why speculate about either of them?)

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think Lenny is trying to say that the stain left on Indiana by the Sampson situation will never be removed. You can fire the AD, remove the coaching staff, get rid of the players, but it's still there. Just as Chicos continues to cite transgressions in Madison, people will not forget that it was Indiana University that hired Kelvin Sampson and looked the other way when he was violating rules. When people think Indiana now, they think scandal. They no longer think of the farmboy militia that Bobby Knight molded into Big Ten contenders year after year. Similarly, if Kentucky hired Coach K, people wouldn't forget the filth that is there now. Same way with Tennessee. If they went and hired Tom Izzo, people wouldn't think they'd cleaned up their act, they'd think Izzo had gone over to the dark side.

I used to love Indiana basketball. Obviously, that's no longer the case.

The difference is the transgressions at Wisconsin are multiple...3rd highest in NCAA history....repeat violations time and time and time and time again.

That's not the case at IU, not even close.

And just as UW has moved farther and farther away from those penalties, people start to forget about them.  No one thinks Bo Ryan is cheating, but many people knew Stu was cheating when he was there.  Therein lies the difference. 

99% of people in this country do not think of IU as some kind of cheating school.  They may think of IU as a school that had a cheater, that's quite a difference.  Yet many people in this country think of Memphis, Kentucky, Alabama, etc as cheating schools because of the frequency of such occurrences.  Also, in many cases those found guilty have not been reprimanded and removed, but allowed to continue in power.

[d6]

It merely insults it.

Whoa! It (the comment) merely insults it (the argument).  That's a really silly argument. 

I think I've heard it all now as I didn't know that "comments" and "arguments" were so sensitive.

[NersEllenson]

WWJGA - What would Josh Gasser Argue??

I think Gasser would argue Indiana sucks, Chicos sucks too for being a Badger Hater...and thereby....Lenny wins.

[Lennys Tap]

Whoa! It (the comment) merely insults it (the argument).  That's a really silly argument. 

I think I've heard it all now as I didn't know that "comments" and "arguments" were so sensitive.

Context, please. Again, the point is that you don't "challenge" someone's argument by calling it stupid. You challenge it by making a better argument. 

[d6]

To be completely honest, I don't care about either argument.  However, it is fallacious and spurious to suggest that because someone said that your argument was stupid that they implied that you were stupid. Reading it that way may be a sign that you're thin-skinned, but that's it.  This is basic Philosophy 101. 

For instance, if someone says my argument is stupid and I infer that to mean that I'm stupid, that's my problem, not theirs. 

[Lennys Tap]

many people knew Stu was cheating when he was there. 

If many people knew Stu Jackson was cheating at Wisconsin, that's bad. But EVERYONE knew Kelvin Sampson was a cheat BEFORE he was hired at Indiana. That's the kind of thing reserved for the Kentuckys of the world - and it's infinitly worse.

[Marquette84]

It showed me that the institution had totally lost their moral compass. You don't even think about hiring a Kelvin Sampson unless there's a widespread culture of corruption.

Or, it might be that IU thought that Sampson was repentant--that he had made a mistake, paid the price and learned his lesson and would not transgress again.  Especially with the threat of the end of his career hanging over him.

Would you actually have any evidence to suggest that this is not what IU thought at the time?  

I'm also curious to see if you have any moral consistency.  Jay Wright was caught cheating at Villanova
http://www.collegesportsscholarships.com/villanova-recruiting-violations.htm

VU later renewed Wright's contract.  Do you feel that VU's willingness to (re)hire Jay Wright to also be a sign of "a widespread culture of corruption" and sign that VU as an institution had "totally lost their moral compass?"  

Or is your moral outrage selective?

[tower912]

I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.   Nyaahhhh.

[MerrittsMustache]

Let's play hypothetical...

After this season, Buzz leaves to coach the Bucks (and removes Kelvin Sampson from the staff  ). Marquette then hires Quin Snyder/Jim Harrick/Todd Bozeman/Dave Bliss/take-your-pick-of-a-shady-coach. This new coach turns MU into legit national title contenders only to be let go after year 3 because the university and the NCAA learned he was cheating. MU then brings in Coach Squeaky Clean who runs a clean and competitive, but unspectacular, program.

Do you chalk up the hiring of the shady coach as a one-time offense and move on, especially with a clean coach and program now in place? Or do you lose a lot of respect for the MU basketball program and university because they hired a win-at-all-costs coach even if they have now righted that wrong? Or a little of both? Also, will it be awkward for Maymon to play for Buzz when the Bucks draft him #1 in the 2011 NBA Draft?

[wyzgy]

who's on first??

[bilsu]

who's on first??

I do not think MU would hire a known cheater. That is why Indiana deserves what happen to them.

[Marquette84]

Let's play hypothetical...

After this season, Buzz leaves to coach the Bucks (and removes Kelvin Sampson from the staff  ). Marquette then hires Quin Snyder/Jim Harrick/Todd Bozeman/Dave Bliss/take-your-pick-of-a-shady-coach. This new coach turns MU into legit national title contenders only to be let go after year 3 because the university and the NCAA learned he was cheating. MU then brings in Coach Squeaky Clean who runs a clean and competitive, but unspectacular, program.

Do you chalk up the hiring of the shady coach as a one-time offense and move on, especially with a clean coach and program now in place? Or do you lose a lot of respect for the MU basketball program and university because they hired a win-at-all-costs coach even if they have now righted that wrong? Or a little of both? Also, will it be awkward for Maymon to play for Buzz when the Bucks draft him #1 in the 2011 NBA Draft?

Why use such extreme examples?  The coaches you cite didn't merely wind up with probation for their teams and kept their jobs--many of your examples wound up with coaching bans from the NCAA (a "show-cause" order, in the NCAA's vernacular).  We couldn't hire them if we wanted.

Instead, lets use your hypothetical setup, but let's say MU hires someone who violated a rule one time, but didn't rise to the level of being banned by the NCAA, fired or forced to leave his school, or resulted in forfeiture of wins.

Since I brought him up earlier, I suggest we use Jay Wright as an example.  After all, he is a "known cheat"--got Villanova on two years NCAA probation.  Or we could use Rick Majerus, who got Utah 3 years probation for violations.  As with Sampson, neither Wright nor Majerus were banned by the NCAA or fired for getting their teams placed on probation.  Take your pick.  Or find a similar example.    

So lets' say we hired Jay Wright or Rick Majerus as a replacement for Buzz.

I VERY seriously doubt anyone would lose respect for MU based on that hire.  And if Wright or Majerus later repeated the violations, I absolutely would chalk it up to a one time hiring mistake given MU's long history of running a clean program--and the fact that neither Majerus or Wright had a history of repeated violations--just a one time occurrence.  

So what do you say?  You were very good at setting up a straw man argument using non-comparable coaches.  Lets see if you're willing to engage in a discussion using with a more equivalent situation.