No. 4: Ryan molding parts into winning Wisconsin machine

[radome]

It is combined football and basketball.  I thought that those that despise Bo would find this interesting.  The comments on the article are quite critical of Parrish.  It is what it is.  OBTW, Pitt was #5, the top 3 coming later. 

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/13670527/flourishing-five-no-4-ryan-molding-parts-into-winning-wisconsin-machine?tag=globalNav.collegebasketball;cover

Flourishing Five No. 4: Ryan molding parts into winning Wisconsin machine
July 26, 2010
By Gary Parrish
CBSSports.com Senior Writer

(Second in a series. Some schools have great football teams. Some have great basketball teams. But a select few have the best of both worlds. CBSSports.com ranks and profiles the schools who've positioned themselves for success now and into the future in both sports. Today, No. 4 Wisconsin. Thurs., July 29, No. 3 revealed.)

LAS VEGAS -- Bo Ryan sat behind a goal at Bishop Gorman High and watched the future of Wisconsin basketball late Saturday night, and I sat and watched right there with him. First thing I noticed is that the future looks a lot like the past and the present. You could've put me in a room by myself, shown me film of Jarrod Uthoff, and without knowing much about the 6-foot-8 forward, I would've told you he looks like somebody who ought to be a Badger.

"People say it all the time," Ryan said between possessions of a game featuring Uthoff's Iowa Barnstormers here in the inaugural Fab 48 summer basketball tournament. "They tell me, 'You lose three guys and then you get three more guys, and those three guys play just like the other three guys.'"

It's not an accident.

Bo Ryan has been doing this long enough that he knows exactly what he wants in a player, knows exactly what he likes, and it doesn't matter if it's the same thing the coaches at Kansas, Kentucky or Ohio State want or like. Ryan doesn't care whether prospects have two stars or five stars beside their names, doesn't care whether North Carolina or Northern Iowa is the school also intrigued. "One thing about me is that I don't worry about what other guys are doing," Ryan said, at which point Uthoff -- just a three-star prospect at Scout.com -- picked and popped and buried a 3-pointer in a very Wisconsin-like way.

"I want to coach the top 20 kid by the time he's playing with us," Ryan said. "I'm not worried about a kid being a top 20 recruit when he comes in. I just like guys that end up there by the time they're done playing with us."

This is not a philosophy I typically endorse, by the way. I'm usually all about talent and athleticism and, yes, even recruiting rankings because those things usually dictate who wins in college basketball. Bill Self, John Calipari, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski, Ben Howland, Thad Matta and Billy Donovan are some of the sport's most successful coaches over the past six or seven years primarily because they routinely sign the nation's most heralded prospects. That is why I really do believe 99 percent of the people who tell you recruiting rankings don't matter are full of you know what.

And yet I believe recruiting rankings really don't matter to Bo Ryan.

He's the exception to the rule, the one percent, the main reason why Wisconsin landed on the CBSSports.com list of the nation's best combined football/basketball schools. "Coach Ryan has a lot to do with that," said Wisconsin senior Jon Leuer, a 6-foot-10 forward who averaged 15.4 points and 5.8 rebounds last season. "He recruits the right kind of players who buy into his system, guys who are willing to put in the time and who understand that he'll make you better if you're willing to work hard in his system.

"It's amazing how much better you can get in four years with him," Leuer added. "He's just a phenomenal coach. That's where it starts."

None of this is to suggest Ryan can't or doesn't recruit elite prospects, because he does. He's signed heralded prospects in the past, and I'm sure he will again. So that's not the point as much as the point is that Ryan doesn't recruit prospects simply because they're heralded. Rather, he recruits prospects who possess attributes he desires, and it hardly matters whether the recruit is heralded or unheralded, ranked or unranked, a future NBA player or not. Ryan pays attention to skill sets, work ethics and even personalities because he doesn't see any sense in bringing in players who won't naturally mesh with the players already on his roster.

"You know how many hours these guys spend together?" Ryan asked. "They don't have to be buddy-buddy. But players not appreciating each other kills teams."

Consequently, Ryan recruits players who will appreciate the players already in the program, which is to say players who understand Wisconsin is a place to learn and grow into a role. It's an approach that's helped the Badgers make nine consecutive NCAA tournaments and not finish worse than fourth in the Big Ten, an approach that ensures new faces will develop into reliable pieces by the time they're needed to be relied upon, an approach that wouldn't work for 99 percent of coaches but works brilliantly, year after year, for Ryan at Wisconsin.

"You're going to jinx me," Ryan said with a smile.

Somehow I doubt it.

My guess is that Leuer will lead the Badgers to a 10th consecutive NCAA tournament this season, then move to the NBA, at which point some player most have never heard of will be ready to contribute major minutes, at which point the Badgers will be on their way to an 11th consecutive NCAA tournament, at which point Uthoff and some combination of other guys should be capable of helping Wisconsin prepare for a 12th consecutive NCAA tournament, and on and on it will go until Ryan -- a 62 year-old who hasn't had a losing record in any season as a coach since 1984-85 -- decides he's ready to retire.

And that day isn't coming soon.

Yes, opposing coaches try to tell recruits it is from time to time.

But Ryan counters it with a simple question.

"Look at me," Ryan said. "Do I look like I'm ready to retire?"

No, I told him.

Then I asked how long he wanted to coach.

"For as long as they keep listening," Ryan said. "Or until I can't communicate with them anymore."

[Litehouse]

I wouldn't trade our position with the Badgers for the next 3-4 years.

[HoopsMalone]

When has Bo ever done anything without highly rated players on the floor?  This is the biggest fairy tale I have ever heard. 

To put it another way, I would guess that Marquette and many Big Ten teams often have less heralded recruits when they step on the floor with the Badgers actually.

This myth is laughable and remember it when the Badgers do what literally every team does without top players.

The Badgers might have had all those players with a bunch of fancy stars next to their names, but MU still found ways to beat them a few times during their hot recruiting run.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Gary Parrish

[GGGG]

Honestly, despite the stupid #4 ranking, that article was a pretty fair representation of Bo and his abilities.

[chapman]

I love how CBS had to preface this story on the main page by saying they're boring (football and basketball), but they win.  Probably why everyone has to show up a half hour late and wasted to the games, winning just isn't enough to be entertained.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Honestly, despite the stupid #4 ranking, that article was a pretty fair representation of Bo and his abilities.

I agree.  They do a good job, they have a talented program, they absolutely prove that you don't need 4 or 5 star recruits to be great.  I know others here say they were loaded with talent in the past...and now their recruiting is "suffering".  I don't buy that.  Yes, they had talent in the past, but I don't think these 3 star kids they are landing are going to suddenly push them in the bottom half of the Big Ten.

They have their system, it works for them.  It will take them to regular season wins and top 4 or 5 Conference finishes, but never a shot to go deep without a miracle seeding run (which they did get once).  I don't think that's all bad.  They are a model of consistency...the results are the same...the players look the same (which drives their Progressive sensibilities batty as hell in Madison...LOL)....they play the same.  Good for them.

They will continue to preach that their high academic "standards" prevents them from landing certain types of players (read....underhanded racist comments if you will), this despite having more than their share of academic risky players over the years not only in Football, but yes, in basketball, too....and yes, under Bo Ryan.

If only they could keep those kids from Madison from leaving like the house was on fire.  Gee, I wonder why they are leaving.      LOL

[MUSF]

Honestly, despite the stupid #4 ranking, that article was a pretty fair representation of Bo and his abilities.

True... so far.

Bo's recruiting of players with "attributes he desires," has historically included players that most other D1 programs have desired as well, i.e. top 100 players and some 4 and 5 star guys.  By any measure, Bo has recruited some talent in the past.  Yes, those players also typically possess his desired attributes but they are also very talented players overall.  The question is, has Bo been winning because he gets players that fit his system or because he gets top talent that fits his system?

It appears that the overall talent of Bo's recruits has waned in the past few years.  I have no doubt that Bo is a good coach, but he is going to have to do his best coaching in the next few years to keep up the success.  If UW starts to drop off, many will begin to doubt the validity of ignoring recruiting rankings and searching for desirable attributes.  

If I were a UW fan, I'd be a little worried that Bo is starting to believe in his own mythology a little too much.  If he starts assembling teams that consist of lesser rated recruits because they fit his system, they are probably in trouble.

[MUSF]

I agree.  They do a good job, they have a talented program, they absolutely prove that you don't need 4 or 5 star recruits to be great. 

How exactly, have they proved that?  Their best teams had 4 and 5 star recruits and I'm not sure any of those teams were "great".

Bo has proved that he can be consistently very good not great with very good not great talent.  I'm not trying to diminish UW's success, but let's call it what it is and stop perpetuating the myth that Bo has painted the Sistine Chapel with finger paints.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How exactly, have they proved that?  Their best teams had 4 and 5 star recruits and I'm not sure any of those teams were "great".

Bo has proved that he can be consistently very good not great with very good not great talent.  I'm not trying to diminish UW's success, but let's call it what it is and stop perpetuating the myth that Bo has painted the Sistine Chapel with finger paints.

Well let's look at it this way, of the other programs that have gone to the NCAA tournament 10 straight years or more, I would wager (could be wrong) that the other ones have had more 4 and 5 star players than Wisconsin-madison.  That doesn't mean Bo hasn't had some 4 and 5 star players on his teams, but even 5 star Brian Butch was not really a 5 star player.  So what if a rating system gave him a 5 star...how many 5 stars have to redshirt and look completely lost their first few years on the court?  Not many, if any.

I agree, Bo is no saint but this is how the provincial UW-madison psyche works.  Despite having one of the largest athletic budgets in the country, despite taking academically risky players (and their fans denying it), despite having a ton of sluff majors (and their fans denying it because overall the school is rated highly...as if the athletes are in any of those highly rated programs), they love to behave as if they are the little engine that could.  That's the Wisconsin-madison deal.   "We're not Michigan, we're not Ohio State, we don't have the USC resources" blah, blah. 

Dick Bennett was Saint Dick.  Bo Ryan is Saint Bo.  (Note:  Coach Stu was not liked, despite being the first coach in 54 years to take the team to the NCAAs....hmmm.....segue into the other discussion, but we'll leave it alone for now)

The sainthood stuff is never going to change in a state like Wisconsin, it just is what it is.  Successful program at major state school, a willing media that will push that image to no end.  Do you think he would be saint Bo here in California?  Hell no.  New York?  Hell no.   It's the setting, and part of the atmosphere.  That's just how they roll in that state, which is fine. 

[tower912]

Bo deserves the props that Parish gave him.   He didn't invent the game, like Buckyworld seems to think, but he is a good coach who is always near the top of the B10-11-12, is always in the tournament, and can spring an upset on a top team that comes to the Kohl center.  
      But his system has limitations that will keep him out of the elite 8 without a perfect draw.   His teams are so dependent upon the swing and only capable of playing defense one way.    So when it isn't working (UNLV, Davidson, Cornell(ha! it still makes me laugh)), they are going to lose because they have no plan B.   The swing is the thing and the only thing.  And the only way to go farther than that is to recruit players who can make plays OUTSIDE the swing.  
   Alando Tucker and Devin Harris could take over and create their own shots outside of the framework of the swing.    Leuer is close, but he requires someone to get him the ball.   Until Bo has a team that executes the swing perfectly, but has players who can score outside that structure as well as create offensive opportunities off of turnovers and steals, he is destined to forever lose to the higher seeds.      And while their incoming classes are solid and have players who can shoot and pass and will be well-suited for the swing, I don't see a difference maker there.  
   And that is why they are so p'ed about Blue and so desperate to land Tokoto.   In their hearts, they know all of this.  

[GGGG]

Dick Bennett was Saint Dick.  Bo Ryan is Saint Bo.  (Note:  Coach Stu was not liked, despite being the first coach in 54 years to take the team to the NCAAs....hmmm.....segue into the other discussion, but we'll leave it alone for now)

Stu Jackson wasn't well liked because he was a condescending a-hole who everyone knew would leave the first time the NBA came calling back. 

And they were right.

[Lennys Tap]

When your program is winning conference championships, going to final 4's, 8's, or 16's and considered the premium one in the state the conversation is 90% basketball and 10% periphery. Now Fran starts a thread about their incoming recruits' high school GPAs, Boy Scout merit badges and church work in Appalachia. And the thread goes on FOREVER. There's a new sheriff in town, a new bull goose looney in the asylum known as college basketball. And from the talk on their board, they know it. Let UW fans enjoy discussing where their guys are going to grad school (in a smarmy, self-righteous and sanctimonious tone, no doubt). We'll be talking instead of where our graduates will play in the Association.

[SacWarrior]

I hate when people perpetuate the myth that Wisconsin wins with team efforts rather than individual play. The only times Ryan has had any real success in the Big Ten was when he had national player of the year candidates with Devin Harris or Alando Tucker. Without those players he's never gotten to the Sweet Sixteen, or even to the semifinals of the Big Televen Tournament.

Ryan is a great coach, there's no doubt about it, but just like any coach in the country he needs big players to have a successful team.

[tower912]

Any time you can paraphrase "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest", it is by definition a great post.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hate when people perpetuate the myth that Wisconsin wins with team efforts rather than individual play. The only times Ryan has had any real success in the Big Ten was when he had national player of the year candidates with Devin Harris or Alando Tucker. Without those players he's never gotten to the Sweet Sixteen, or even to the semifinals of the Big Televen Tournament.

Doesn't that mean Wisconsin-madison had no success when they didn't have Harris or Tucker?  I don't think that is true.  They had plenty of success, even without those two players....one of which, of course, wasn't even recruited by Saint Bo. 

The conference tournament and NCAA tournaments are crapshoots, all based on who you play, where you play, when you play, having one off day (vs having an entire 4 months of suckitude).   Without those two players, they have still been first team division finishers and done well over the long haul in the regular season.

[butchbadger]

The only times Ryan has had any real success in the Big Ten was when he had national player of the year candidates with Devin Harris or Alando Tucker. Without those players he's never gotten to the Sweet Sixteen, or even to the semifinals of the Big Televen Tournament.

Check your facts there chief.

[Lennys Tap]

Any time you can paraphrase "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest", it is by definition a great post.   

Thanks Tower. Both the book and the movie are in my all time top 10.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thanks Tower. Both the book and the movie are in my all time top 10.

Agreed. 

[mu-rara]

Any time you can paraphrase "One flew over the Cuckoo's nest", it is by definition a great post.   

Could you imagine naming a character "Big Chief" today?

[mu-rara]

Butch Badger:  the official fact checker for MUScoop!

[Lennys Tap]

Could you imagine naming a character "Big Chief" today?

Kesey was as politically incorrect as they come. I can almost hear today's scolds lecturing him on how there's nothing funny about mental illness.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Could you imagine naming a character "Big Chief" today?

LOL.  Can you imagine the Bad News Bears coming out today?  Hell no.  Political Correctness sucks ass