Talent at MU since AL

[NersEllenson]

Could next year's team be the most talented EVER at MU, or at least since AL left?  Just basing this off of incoming credentials.  May be tough to go back historically prior to Al, given the data available but think of next years roster:

3-JUCO First Team All-Americans:  Buycks, DJO, Crowder
4- Top 100 Rated High School Players: Cadougan, Blue, Jones, Williams
1 - Likely 2nd/3rd Team All Big-East performer as a Junior:  Jimmy Butler
1 - Player ranked between 100-150 by most recruiting services:  Reggie Smith
1 - Sleeper Recruit, quite possibly the best player in Philadelphia HS Ball:  DJ Newbill
3 - Marginal Players:  Fulce, Otule, Mbao.

Could any team compete, based on incoming credentials?

[MarquetteDano]

It would be up there without question.  The closest I can come up with after Al would be the 1993-4 team:

McIlvaine (Player of Year in conference, Top 100 recruit, future NBA player)
Damon Key (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Robb Logtermann (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Amal McCaskill (project, future NBA player)
Chris Crawford (Top 100?, future NBA player)
William Gates (Top 100, at least before injury)
Roney Eford (Top 100?, future all conference player)
Tony Miller (All Conference, all-time MU assists leader)
Anthony Pieper (Top 100?)

Other than that year, you would have to go back quite a way I presume.

[NersEllenson]

It would be up there without question.  The closest I can come up with after Al would be the 1993-4 team:

McIlvaine (Player of Year in conference, Top 100 recruit, future NBA player)
Damon Key (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Robb Logtermann (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Amal McCaskill (project, future NBA player)
Chris Crawford (Top 100?, future NBA player)
William Gates (Top 100, at least before injury)
Roney Eford (Top 100?, future all conference player)
Tony Miller (All Conference, all-time MU assists leader)
Anthony Pieper (Top 100?)

Other than that year, you would have to go back quite a way I presume.

Good point..considering that team never advanced farther than a Sweet 16 - Would we consider it a disappointment if the 2010-11 or 2011-2012 team doesn't advance beyond the Sweet 16?  Or would we be satisfied?

[MarquetteDano]

Good point..considering that team never advanced farther than a Sweet 16 - Would we consider it a disappointment if the 2010-11 or 2011-2012 team doesn't advance beyond the Sweet 16?  Or would we be satisfied?

I would not compare the 93-94 team to next year's team because it was so experienced and four of the starters played together for 3+ years.  2011-2012?  I will hold off expectations until I see next year.

At this point though I would say Buzz has done more with talent than O'Neill did.  I even think the 92-93 team underperformed given how much talent they had.  Buzz is overarchieving with his talent to this point.

[HoopsMalone]

I think we should judge Buzz by the team he puts on the floor in two years when he has had 3 or 4 (depending on how you count the year he got the job) years of recruiting under his belt. 

2009 was a solid class that keeps MU in the top half of the BE, 2010 puts us realistically in contention for a top four conference finish, and 2011 will show if we can make some noise in March.

I like where things are headed. 

You still have to give a shout out to the 2003 team though in this thread.
1 NBA Finals MVP and All-American
2 other NBA players
Merrit had a try out with the Bulls.
Grimm and Chapman playing oversees.

Might not have been as highly ranked in recruiting, but still.  These guys could play and having Wade is enough talent to keep it competitive with any MU team. 

[muballer10]

You still have to give a shout out to the 2003 team though in this thread.
1 NBA Finals MVP and All-American
2 other NBA players
Merrit had a try out with the Bulls.
Grimm and Chapman playing oversees


In a thread dedicated to evaluating that best talent MU has ever seen....did you really just throw a Chris Grimm at us?


...shame on you.

[TomW1365]

In terms of gifted athletes and recognized talent, next year's team looks pretty good.  If anything, they look to be as deep as we've had since the Al McGuire days...  
I'm glad someone beat me to the 2003 Final Four team.  Anytime you have 3 future NBA players on one roster, they have to be mentioned in the conversation.  Were they as deep?  No.  But I doubt there is a guy on our current or future roster that is going to make as huge of an impact as Dwyane Wade did.  The bar was set high... at the end of the day, talent gives you a chance but there's alot of talented teams out there that don't go far in the tourney.  Hopefully they will gel and continue to build on past successes.

[HoopsMalone]

In a thread dedicated to evaluating that best talent MU has ever seen....did you really just throw a Chris Grimm at us?


...shame on you.

Grimm was on the final four team and now plays professional basketball.  Grimm would get 15 mins/game on the current MU team or next year which is what this thread is about. 

I was throwing Wade at you though.  Grimm was not really the point of my off-the-cuff list.

[NersEllenson]

In terms of gifted athletes and recognized talent, next year's team looks pretty good.  If anything, they look to be as deep as we've had since the Al McGuire days...  
I'm glad someone beat me to the 2003 Final Four team.  Anytime you have 3 future NBA players on one roster, they have to be mentioned in the conversation.  Were they as deep?  No.  But I doubt there is a guy on our current or future roster that is going to make as huge of an impact as Dwyane Wade did.  The bar was set high... at the end of the day, talent gives you a chance but there's alot of talented teams out there that don't go far in the tourney.  Hopefully they will gel and continue to build on past successes.

[/b]
Agree with you and other poster who mentioned 2003 team...that team may turn out to have more top level talent - Wade, Diener, Novak..but our 2011-2012 team could very well be much deeper.  The question becomes the bolded portion above - can Buzz get them to gel, and keep egos managed.  It will be critical that he bring in high-character guys, who are also top flight talent..to be able to keep everyone happy, and have a great sense of "team," and not I/Me.  If Buzz can manage all of this talent, I think he will have passed every test there could be for a young coach in his 3rd/4th year.

[muballer10]

Grimm was on the final four team and now plays professional basketball.  Grimm would get 15 mins/game on the current MU team or next year which is what this thread is about. 

I was throwing Wade at you though.  Grimm was not really the point of my off-the-cuff list.

Has any MU basketball player from the last 5 years not gone on and played professional basketball? 10 years?

[HoopsMalone]

Has any MU basketball player from the last 5 years not gone on and played professional basketball? 10 years?

Im not gonna google every player but I'd guess Brandon Bell, Kairon Bradley, Dameon Mason, Todd Townsend, Robert Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Terry Sanders, Carleton Christian.  As far as I know these guys have not, but some of them did not finish at MU.  I don't know though.  Maybe you are right that everyone hasbut that only strengthens the 2003 team if everyone has gone pro in the last ten years.  It's not a knock by any means.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[bma725]

Im not gonna google every player but I'd guess Brandon Bell, Kairon Bradley, Dameon Mason, Todd Townsend, Robert Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Terry Sanders, Carleton Christian.  As far as I know these guys have not, but some of them did not finish at MU.  I don't know though.  Maybe you are right that everyone hasbut that only strengthens the 2003 team if everyone has gone pro in the last ten years.  It's not a knock by any means.  Thanks for pointing that out.

I believe every scholarship player that has been here during the Crean/Williams era that stayed for 4 years has played pro ball in some form other than David Diggs and Bart Miller, both of whom went straight to graduate school.  Townsend, Jackson, Blackledge, and Sanders all played albeit briefly.

Of the guys you mention that left for another school Mason played in the PBL and is now in Belgium and Bradley is currently playing in Switzerland.  Bell's career ended because of injuries, and Christian got kicked out of UCF and has never gone anywhere.

[HoopsMalone]

I believe every scholarship player that has been here during the Crean/Williams era that stayed for 4 years has played pro ball in some form other than David Diggs and Bart Miller, both of whom went straight to graduate school.  Townsend, Jackson, Blackledge, and Sanders all played albeit briefly.

Of the guys you mention that left for another school Mason played in the PBL and is now in Belgium and Bradley is currently playing in Switzerland.  Bell's career ended because of injuries, and Christian got kicked out of UCF and has never gone anywhere.

Wow. Thanks, you are a wealth of knowledge.  Glad to see almost everyone has been able to get a little bit of money for basketball. 

[muballer10]

Im not gonna google every player but I'd guess Brandon Bell, Kairon Bradley, Dameon Mason, Todd Townsend, Robert Jackson, Trend Blackledge, Terry Sanders, Carleton Christian.  As far as I know these guys have not, but some of them did not finish at MU.  I don't know though.  Maybe you are right that everyone hasbut that only strengthens the 2003 team if everyone has gone pro in the last ten years.  It's not a knock by any means.  Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't follow your logic. One of your reasons for Chris Grimm being "good" was that he is playing pro ball. All Im saying is that really means nothing, or least not enough to warrant a "good" status, and most certainly not enough to warrant mention in a best ever thread such as this. I am not just saying the whole 2003 team played professionally, but rather nearly every player. If everyone has done it, then playing professionally should no longer stand out when we are ranking players on a reletive basis.

Having said that, I agree that the 2003 team was a very talented one, but I feel that 2009 was a more talented team. Yes, you have Travis Diener and Steve Novak as future NBA players, but Novak was a freshman that year and Diener was a sophomore...we're they really that "good" that year? For the sake of a specific teams skill level, its not fair to cite "NBA player" on Steve Novak's freshman resume. He was a very good freshman, but still a freshman. I think its more accurate to cite most talented players on that team as the leaders - Wade, Merrit, Jackson and possibly Diener. Essentially, this list begins and ends at Wade. These other players were good, but 2003 is in the conversation solely because of him.

2009 on the other hand, had 3 seniors at the top of their careers (where DJ's career peaked can certainly be debated) and a junior averaging 16 a game. Plus, if you take the end of the season as the time when evaluating their skill, Jimmy Butler's stock was rising pretty high as well.

[HoopsMalone]

I don't follow your logic. One of your reasons for Chris Grimm being "good" was that he is playing pro ball. All Im saying is that really means nothing, or least not enough to warrant a "good" status, and most certainly not enough to warrant mention in a best ever thread such as this. I am not just saying the whole 2003 team played professionally, but rather nearly every player. If everyone has done it, then playing professionally should no longer stand out when we are ranking players on a reletive basis.

Having said that, I agree that the 2003 team was a very talented one, but I feel that 2009 was a more talented team. Yes, you have Travis Diener and Steve Novak as future NBA players, but Novak was a freshman that year and Diener was a sophomore...we're they really that "good" that year? For the sake of a specific teams skill level, its not fair to cite "NBA player" on Steve Novak's freshman resume. He was a very good freshman, but still a freshman. I think its more accurate to cite most talented players on that team as the leaders - Wade, Merrit, Jackson and possibly Diener. Essentially, this list begins and ends at Wade. These other players were good, but 2003 is in the conversation solely because of him.

2009 on the other hand, had 3 seniors at the top of their careers (where DJ's career peaked can certainly be debated) and a junior averaging 16 a game. Plus, if you take the end of the season as the time when evaluating their skill, Jimmy Butler's stock was rising pretty high as well.

Again, the point of bringing in the 2003 team wasn't Chris Grimm, but if you need to nit pick go for it.  Playing pro ball somewhere is not a knock on anyone.  Any team in MU history you cite will have players like him on it.  The 2003 team would beat last year's team and Diener and Novak were big contributors in the tourney.  Diener was a big contributor all year.  http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/diener_travis00.html

That team had bigs who could score, guards who can shoot, and a penetrating wing man.  All things that would hurt last year's team.  The 2003 team's accomplishments also speak for themselves.  The Three Amigos teams were good and they were good individually more so, but not that good.

[muwarrior69]

It would be up there without question.  The closest I can come up with after Al would be the 1993-4 team:

McIlvaine (Player of Year in conference, Top 100 recruit, future NBA player)
Damon Key (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Robb Logtermann (All Conference, Top 100 recruit)
Amal McCaskill (project, future NBA player)
Chris Crawford (Top 100?, future NBA player)
William Gates (Top 100, at least before injury)
Roney Eford (Top 100?, future all conference player)
Tony Miller (All Conference, all-time MU assists leader)
Anthony Pieper (Top 100?)

Other than that year, you would have to go back quite a way I presume.

Was Crawford a scholarship player? I thought his tuition was being paid for by the KC Royals (baseball) or do I have him confused with someone else?

[APieperFan3]

I ws pretty young when crawford came into college (after all, i changed my grade school number to #3 because i LOVED anthony pieper...and wore 3 in every sport from there on out) and i remember there was 'rumors' of him wanting to leave after his fresh/soph year because he wanted to play baseball?...not too sure tho.

as for tuition being paid for by the royals...i dont even think thats legal...

im pretty sure kevin oneill was a integral part in getting crawford to become the player he became.

** to reply to the original statement...i think you could make the case, but nothing is set in stone. these guys' rankings change periodically...some players have peaked...others will become more explosivewhen they get D1 training and lifting, etc.

on paper...it looks like we have a LOT of possible talent coming in....but injuries happen (see this year), players dont develop, etc....hopefully Buzz will get the best out of them...as he has done so far this year.

here's to a sweet 16 birth this year!!...and a final 4 in the VERY near future!

[mugrad99]

is this what you mean?

[muballer10]

I ws pretty young when crawford came into college (after all, i changed my grade school number to #3 because i LOVED anthony pieper...and wore 3 in every sport from there on out) and i remember there was 'rumors' of him wanting to leave after his fresh/soph year because he wanted to play baseball?...not too sure tho.

as for tuition being paid for by the royals...i dont even think thats legal...

im pretty sure kevin oneill was a integral part in getting crawford to become the player he became.

** to reply to the original statement...i think you could make the case, but nothing is set in stone. these guys' rankings change periodically...some players have peaked...others will become more explosivewhen they get D1 training and lifting, etc.

on paper...it looks like we have a LOT of possible talent coming in....but injuries happen (see this year), players dont develop, etc....hopefully Buzz will get the best out of them...as he has done so far this year.

here's to a sweet 16 birth this year!!...and a final 4 in the VERY near future!

I LOVE that someone dropped in some ANthony Pieper love.  I am from Wausaukee (his high school) and I grew up watching him tear people apart in our small conference. He had a very good career at MU and was even captain his senior year (his best year may have even been his soph year). If you look at this years "Remember the Titans" entrance video, he didn't make the cut. He was in it last year, and then bumped this year. TRAVESTY! Im thinking about starting a petition. Any signers out there?

[Marquette84]

Could next year's team be the most talented EVER at MU, or at least since AL left?  Just basing this off of incoming credentials.  May be tough to go back historically prior to Al, given the data available but think of next years roster:

3-JUCO First Team All-Americans:  Buycks, DJO, Crowder
4- Top 100 Rated High School Players: Cadougan, Blue, Jones, Williams
1 - Likely 2nd/3rd Team All Big-East performer as a Junior:  Jimmy Butler
1 - Player ranked between 100-150 by most recruiting services:  Reggie Smith
1 - Sleeper Recruit, quite possibly the best player in Philadelphia HS Ball:  DJ Newbill
3 - Marginal Players:  Fulce, Otule, Mbao.

Could any team compete, based on incoming credentials?

Based on incoming credentials, 2006 is comparable:

4 - Top 100:  James, McNeal, Matthews, Novak
1 - JC 2nd team D1 AA:  Lott
1 - JC 1st team D3 AA:  Kinesella
2 - Sleeper recruits:  Dan Fitzgerald based on reputation for strong outside shooting, Barro -- Scout's #17 ranked center and believed to have a huge upside because he did not play in HS.
2  - Ranked between 100-150 by most recruiting services:  Amoroso, Chapman
2 -  Marginal Players;  Grimm, Burke

Based on incoming credentials, next year will be on par with 2006.

[NersEllenson]

Based on incoming credentials, 2006 is comparable:

4 - Top 100:  James, McNeal, Matthews, Novak
1 - JC 2nd team D1 AA:  Lott
1 - JC 1st team D3 AA:  Kinesella
2 - Sleeper recruits:  Dan Fitzgerald based on reputation for strong outside shooting, Barro -- Scout's #17 ranked center and believed to have a huge upside because he did not play in HS.
2  - Ranked between 100-150 by most recruiting services:  Amoroso, Chapman
2 -  Marginal Players;  Grimm, Burke

Based on incoming credentials, next year will be on par with 2006.

Interesting to see the similarities between the 2006 team, and our projected 2010-2011 team.  Noticed the other thread that compared THIS year's team to the above 2005-2006 team.  I'll be interested to see if our 2010-2011 team is able to make the NCAA tourney, and actually advance out of the first round - as our 2005-2006 team wasn't able to do so.  We lose Zar, Cubi and MO..But, can Crowder, Blue, Newbill, et al..replace/improve this team beyond this year's squad??