Fighting Sioux -- This morning's Washington Times

[muwarrior87]

As an Irish-American I demand that ND rename themselves the Gold

Would work to w/ their gold dome.  How about Golden Domers.

[MUinCO]

I love the Warrior nick name.  But if there was a poster child for offensive mascots Willie was it.  In my opinion, if we had no Willie we would probably still be called the Warriors.  Didn't we play a team last year called the "Chippewas" from Michigan?

I think that's exactly what happened; some folks inability to separate Willie (or Native American for that matter) from Warrior in their heads ultimately killed any attempt to bring it back.  That stupid canned election didn't help either.

Nevertheless, this article is interesting to me in that it shows if you have tribal support then you are golden (so to speak).  If a local tribal council were to approach MU and request we "represent" them again I could see a return to Warrior.  Without their involvement this conversation remains, sadly, moot.

[4everwarriors]

I love the Warrior nick name.  But if there was a poster child for offensive mascots Willie was it.  In my opinion, if we had no Willie we would probably still be called the Warriors.  Didn't we play a team last year called the "Chippewas" from Michigan?

Willie was very cool and played the role perfectly. Is Bucky Badger offensive? I think UW has the best mascot in college athletics. Since badgers are unable to speak and the PC crowd hasn't taken up the cause, UW is left alone.
Is the Atlanta Braves tomahawk chop offensive? How about the ultimate example, the Washington Redskins?

[MUinCO]

Willie was very cool and play the role perfectly. Is Bucky Badger offensive? I think UW has the best mascot in college athletics. Since badgers are unable the speak and the PC crowd hasn't taken up the cause, UW is left alone.
Is the Atlanta Braves tomahawk chop offensive? How about the ultimate example, the Washington Redskins?

Yes, there are many folks in and out of the Native Am community that find both the tomahawk chop and the skins name offensive. As evidence both organizations have seen their share of protestors. Of course, neither organization nor their fans are willing to bend either so there it is.

I hear rodents around the world are generally pissed by how they are represented by UW.

[MUinCO]

BTW...our family pet hamster, 'little rascal,' died on Wednesday. In his last dying breath I swear I heard..."F-Bucky."

[LastWarrior]

Nevertheless, this article is interesting to me in that it shows if you have tribal support then you are golden (so to speak).  If a local tribal council were to approach MU and request we "represent" them again I could see a return to Warrior.  Without their involvement this conversation remains, sadly, moot.

Without getting into specifics, the MU administration was not really interested in hearing what the local American Indian community had to say.

[Hards Alumni]

Crack a book... interesting response.  What book would that be?  Perhaps a book on communism?  Communism is based on the premise that the state dictates what is best for the people (rule by minority).  Democracy is based on the principle of government by popularly elected officials (rule by majority).  Just a refresher on how the government in the U.S. works... our representatives are elected by MAJORITY,  legislation is passed by MAJORITY vote and a popularly elected (AGAIN BY MAJORITY) President signs legislation into law.  

I'm sure you'll disagree so here are the two definitions...

Democracy: government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.


Communism: A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

My point above is that it is commonplace in the U.S. these days to see special interest groups try take away the principles of democracy from the people.  If the majority of folks are for the name, then let it stand!

Also, how about you stop resorting to name calling... that's pretty immature.

Thanks for the lesson, though it was unnecessary.  And besides unnecessary, it was wholly inaccurate.  Go read Karl Marx's manifesto if you really want to know what Communism is.  Your definition is simply the Soviet Unions terrible attempt at "Communism", when in reality, it was mere despotism.  The term Communist gets thrown around far more liberally than it really should, and usually it gets thrown around by people who are ignorant of the true meaning.

as for your communism definition, I prefer the actual definition...

communism
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Not surprisingly though, you missed the entire point of my statement.

First off, we don't live in a democracy.  We never have, and never will.  What we have is a Democratically elected Republic.  But that wasn't really my point anyway, just a heads up to you and others who don't seem to pay attention in civics class.

My point was that a small amount of people have almost ALWAYS (historically speaking) held the power.  Power is concentrated for efficiency's sake.  Our small (only a tiny portion of the population) government controls the law of the land.  Additionally, those with a lot of money (again, a small portion of the population) control a vast amount of the economy.  To say that we all have power is idealistic at best, and ignorant at worst.

Historically speaking, how many places in the world have the majority of people ruled the land?  Almost none.  From the Pharaohs and monarchs of the past, to the despots and dictators of the modern world, the power has almost always been held by a FEW people.

You can dream all you want about America being a democracy and allowing the majority to speak, but why should it be to the detriment of the minority?  Simple utilitarianism does not, and should not apply to every situation, and especially in this situation.  By your logic we should have never stopped calling African-Americans by a certain other name simply because a majority of folks are, "for the name!" as you say.  Surely, you'd like to revise your argument?

as for the name calling, I apologize if it truly offended you.  I doubt the name 'doofus' would offend any adult, and it was sort of a tongue in cheek joke alluding to the fact that most people should know that politics is verboten on these boards.  Again, lame joke on my part, apologies.

as for downtown85, I can completely agree with your last post.  I don't find the "Fighting Sioux" offensive.  But, if the Sioux did, then it should be changed.  Simple as that.

[Pakuni]

Is the Atlanta Braves tomahawk chop offensive? How about the ultimate example, the Washington Redskins?

I have no problem with Warriors, but I think anybody in their right mind would find Redskins offensive. Not saying it has to change - I couldn't care less one way or another -  but Redskins is pretty bad.

[GGGG]

A couple of things:

First, I am a liberal university administrator and I've never eaten brie. 

Second, the issue that the University faces isn't one of political correctness, it is whether or not they are going to be able to host NCAA playoffs in their venues because the NCAA won't allow it, nor will they be able to wear uniforms with Native imagery.  That means no more home hockey playoff games for one of the best hockey programs in the country.  Any realist is going to come to the conclusion that fighting the NCAA is simply not worth it.

Third, I have no idea what legal standing the Sioux tribe has to force the University not to change its name.  Bizarre.

[GGGG]

One other thing.

North Dakota really got behind the 8-ball with this when the big donor to their hockey arena, and huge Sioux supporter, turned out to enjoy throwing Nazi-themed parties on a regular basis.  It kind of took the wind out of their sails.

I'm sure the University is just ready for this entire episode to be done with...just like people at MU are just ready for the Warrior issue to be done with.  It's hard to focus on the future when people keep bringing up the past.

[GGGG]

Oh...one final, final thing.

University administrators figured out long ago that people's bark is much worse than their bite on this issue.  People talk a good game, but by and large people still come to the games, still donate money and still support the program.  Just look at this board as an example.

I would love to go back to the Warrior nickname.  But I still support MU basketball and still contribute to the alma mater.  Marquette really hasn't been hurt all that much by their name change.

[downtown85]

Oh...one final, final thing.

University administrators figured out long ago that people's bark is much worse than their bite on this issue.  People talk a good game, but by and large people still come to the games, still donate money and still support the program.  Just look at this board as an example.

I would love to go back to the Warrior nickname.  But I still support MU basketball and still contribute to the alma mater.  Marquette really hasn't been hurt all that much by their name change.

I couldn't agree more with the entire post.  Administrators seem not to be accountable for their poor decisionmaking.  Dude, you've got a great job! 

[SaintPaulWarrior]

One other thing.

North Dakota really got behind the 8-ball with this when the big donor to their hockey arena, and huge Sioux supporter, turned out to enjoy throwing Nazi-themed parties on a regular basis.  It kind of took the wind out of their sails.

I'm sure the University is just ready for this entire episode to be done with...just like people at MU are just ready for the Warrior issue to be done with.  It's hard to focus on the future when people keep bringing up the past.

The donor you are referring to is Ralph Engelstad who owned the Imperial Palace in Vegas.  There are about 2,200 or more engraved Fighting Sioux logos in the walls and floors throughout the beautiful arena he built.  They can change the name but he made sure before he died that the Sioux logo would be very very hard to remove from their history.

EDIT:  There are over 2,200 logos engraved throughout the stadium not 200.

[GGGG]

I couldn't agree more with the entire post.  Administrators seem not to be accountable for their poor decisionmaking.  Dude, you've got a great job! 

I know you are somewhat kidding, but we are most definitely held accountable.  It's just that on a scale from 1 to 100, the university's nickname ranks about #99. 

[GGGG]

The donor you are referring to is Ralph Engelstad who owned the Imperial Palace in Vegas.  There are about 2,200 or more engraved Fighting Sioux logos in the walls and floors throughout the beautiful arena he built.  They can change the name but he made sure before he died that the Sioux logo would be very very hard to remove from their history.

EDIT:  There are over 2,200 logos engraved throughout the stadium not 200.

And they will be removing every single one of them.

One tradition that I doubt will die is that when they play the national anthem at their sporting events, the crowd ends it with "...and the home of the SOOOOOOOOOOO."

[SaintPaulWarrior]

And they will be removing every single one of them.

One tradition that I doubt will die is that when they play the national anthem at their sporting events, the crowd ends it with "...and the home of the SOOOOOOOOOOO."

They are leasing the arena until 2031 when the university will own it...these logos are engraved into marble and concrete...I wonder what the cost to remove over 2,200 logos in 2031 will cost?

[DaCoach]

As an Irish-American I demand that ND rename themselves the Gold

Fool's Gold would be more appropriate.

[Balrogs]

And they will be removing every single one of them.

One tradition that I doubt will die is that when they play the national anthem at their sporting events, the crowd ends it with "...and the home of the SOOOOOOOOOOO."

Highly doubt it, seeing how the University doesn't own the complex.  The Engelstad family trust that owns the stadium would have to betray its purpose.  Why would you want to scrub out your history?

[GGGG]

Highly doubt it, seeing how the University doesn't own the complex.  The Engelstad family trust that owns the stadium would have to betray its purpose.  Why would you want to scrub out your history?

OK, I didn't know they didn't own the complex.  It did say "their facilities."

I wonder if the NCAA will allow them to host playoff games there?  My guess is that this was part of their agreement.

[war1980rior]

I don't post often, but this topic sort of burns me.  I was and am a warrior.  Fine that our university's administration was one of the first to cave in on a milktoast nickname.  As I said in the questionaire sent out by Marquette, a warrior doesn't have to be a Native American.  There are plenty of Marquette grads out on a real battlefield today in harms way, and they could be out symbol.

As to the Native Americans, many want their tribe's names out there.  Not only is there a lot of history involved, but they flat out make a lot of money for it.  The Seminole tribe in Florida went beserk over this little rule and won, as they get a ton of dough from FSU for allowing them the honor to use their tribe's name.  It goes a lot further than just being PC.  They are taking a lot of money away from the tribes by doing this.

A return to the Warriors as a nickname?  Probably not in my lifetime as it would take some spine or simple creativity, and I haven't seen that in any university administration for quite a while.  There are plenty of Marquette grads out there who are real warriors, and probably the best being the road warriors to support the away half schedule!

[77ncaachamps]

Man, I want a university to name themselves after an indigenous tribe of the Philippines.
Seriously...they'd sell so many caps, shirts, etc. in California, parts of the Western Region, and the largest US cities!

[ChicosBailBonds]

One of the arguments in the article was identical to mine (and others) years ago....that is, if you stop using these nicknames you further push these tribes into obscurity.

My son last year asked what a Seminole was when we were watching the FSU game.  Why else would a kid 3000 miles away from Florida ask about an Indian tribe from the American SE?  Simple, it wouldn't happen.

FSU keeps the Seminole name alive nationally.  So does ND State.

Would it surprise anyone if 40 years from now when no one knows anything about the tribes that some politico will suggest a law forcing schools to adopt Indian nicknames to honor them.  Ironic, but it wouldn't surprise me.