Merry Christmas ...But somethings get old...

[Chili]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

[Marquette84]

Agian Mu made tom crean not vice versa.

So if you truly believe that MU made Tom Crean, please answer the following:  

1.  Why didn't MU "make" Hank Raymonds?  

2.  Why didn't MU "make" Rick Majerus?

3.  Why didn't MU "make" Bob Dukiet?

4.  Why didn't MU "make" Mike Deane?

You claim that MU makes the coach, but here are four examples of MU coaches that the program failed to make successful.  All four had the same benefits of MU and it's history and alumni going for them.  They all had a much higher pedigree than that "nobody" you constantly complain about--Tom Crean.  

Unlike Crean all four saw their personal careers and reputation take a hit following their coaching gig at MU, with Deane, Dukeit and Majerus settling for lesser jobs in an attempt to restart their careers.

Unlike Crean, all of them left the MU program in worse shape than they received it.  

Unlike Crean, all saw attendance decline visibly and measurably from their first year to their last.  

Granted, unlike Crean, none of them tried to take credit for their accomplishments--which seems to be what bothers you most about Crean.  Then again, their accomplishments aren't worth taking credit for.  

Consider--four highly pedigreed coaches supported by the former-player combine all step into the MU job and fail.  A "nobody" steps in and succeeds.  And he has the audacity to point out the obvious:  that he deserved credit for his results.

And his reward for accomplishing something that 4 out of 5 prior post-Al coaches failed to do is that he's called a two faced liar and an ass and who knows what else.  

So in the end, let me ask you this:  Who's ego is bigger?  Tom Crean's?  Or a bunch of guys who failed with Raymonds, Majerus, Dukeit and Deane, yet somehow think they're the reason for MU's resurgence in the 2000's?  

Here's the sad thing--as long as your ilk is around, we're destined to see any successful coach leave as soon as they have the chance.  

Sadly, its only a matter of time until you turn on Buzz.  

He'll take us to a sweet 16 or a final four, and when the national spotlight changes once again from the nostalgia of '77 to the success of today, you'll come out of the woodwork talking about how a bunch of players from 35 years ago deserve more of the credit than Buzz.  

And at that point, Buzz will have two options.  Get while the gettin' is good (like O'Neill).  Or stay and have to endure crap from your ilk (like Crean).  

Here's hoping we can reach a point where our current team can attain success without somebody b*tching about whether current players and coaches genuflect in front of the retired numbers.

Or some present day insurance salesman miffed that he's not consulted on offensive sets that he remembers from his playing days.

Perhaps someday we can let a modern day team have the right to crow about their own accomplishments without hearing about how a team 35 to 40 years ago deserves much of the credit for paving the way.

[JSwarriors08]

So if you truly believe that MU made Tom Crean, please answer the following:  

1.  Why didn't MU "make" Hank Raymonds?  

2.  Why didn't MU "make" Rick Majerus?

3.  Why didn't MU "make" Bob Dukiet?

4.  Why didn't MU "make" Mike Deane?

You claim that MU makes the coach, but here are four examples of MU coaches that the program failed to make successful.  All four had the same benefits of MU and it's history and alumni going for them.  They all had a much higher pedigree than that "nobody" you constantly complain about--Tom Crean.  

Unlike Crean all four saw their personal careers and reputation take a hit following their coaching gig at MU, with Deane, Dukeit and Majerus settling for lesser jobs in an attempt to restart their careers.

Unlike Crean, all of them left the MU program in worse shape than they received it.  

Unlike Crean, all saw attendance decline visibly and measurably from their first year to their last.  

Granted, unlike Crean, none of them tried to take credit for their accomplishments--which seems to be what bothers you most about Crean.  Then again, their accomplishments aren't worth taking credit for.  

Consider--four highly pedigreed coaches supported by the former-player combine all step into the MU job and fail.  A "nobody" steps in and succeeds.  And he has the audacity to point out the obvious:  that he deserved credit for his results.

And his reward for accomplishing something that 4 out of 5 prior post-Al coaches failed to do is that he's called a two faced liar and an ass and who knows what else.  

So in the end, let me ask you this:  Who's ego is bigger?  Tom Crean's?  Or a bunch of guys who failed with Raymonds, Majerus, Dukeit and Deane, yet somehow think they're the reason for MU's resurgence in the 2000's?  

Here's the sad thing--as long as your ilk is around, we're destined to see any successful coach leave as soon as they have the chance.  

Sadly, its only a matter of time until you turn on Buzz.  

He'll take us to a sweet 16 or a final four, and when the national spotlight changes once again from the nostalgia of '77 to the success of today, you'll come out of the woodwork talking about how a bunch of players from 35 years ago deserve more of the credit than Buzz.  

And at that point, Buzz will have two options.  Get while the gettin' is good (like O'Neill).  Or stay and have to endure crap from your ilk (like Crean).  

Here's hoping we can reach a point where our current team can attain success without somebody b*tching about whether current players and coaches genuflect in front of the retired numbers.

Or some present day insurance salesman miffed that he's not consulted on offensive sets that he remembers from his playing days.

Perhaps someday we can let a modern day team have the right to crow about their own accomplishments without hearing about how a team 35 to 40 years ago deserves much of the credit for paving the way.

What a beautiful post.

[MR.HAYWARD]

MAybe the real reason we got into the big east is becuase of wjo the temporray custodian of the men's basketball team is 

I have it on good authority that Buzz wrote Tranghese a letter 15 years ago and Tranghese admired him so much he knew that some day he would be the Mu coach and could attract 16, 500 to his first Big East game. 

[RedWebster]

So if you truly believe that MU made Tom Crean, please answer the following:  

1.  Why didn't MU "make" Hank Raymonds?  

2.  Why didn't MU "make" Rick Majerus?

3.  Why didn't MU "make" Bob Dukiet?

4.  Why didn't MU "make" Mike Deane?

1. It did.
2. It did.
3. It did.
4. It did.

I assure you that Marquette made Hank Raymonds...even he'd tell you that. I believe Majerus would say the exact same thing. I also assure you that Bob Dukiet and Mike Deane got coaching jobs as a result of "Head Coach, Marquette University" being on the resume.

Iincidentally, for somebody who objects to criticisms of our former coach, you sure seem to bash a decent man like Hank Raymonds an awful lot. You're truly the conscience of the program!

[MR.HAYWARD]

Thanks Red I was not going to respond if he cannot see that Mu made those guys his wunderlust for Cream is so thick that that is why I dont respond. 

Ask hank Raymonds if Mu made him!! 

Dis MU make Majerus...hmm lets see a an overweight manger becomes the head coach at Mu not to mention the education.  Ahh read his book(s) its about 300 pages of how Mu made him.

Deane never gets another job if he does not take a coauple Mu teams to the NCAA's.  Gave him  antional stage to showcase his coaching ability.  he is still coaching becuase Mu made him a name.

Oneill...how many times does he need to state in interviews that Mu was the best thing to have happened to him and he regrets having ever left?

and our former coach....an assistant B4 MU made him...let's see where he is in 6-7 years.  He who laughs last laughs hardest.

[Marquette84]

Thanks Red I was not going to respond if he cannot see that Mu made those guys his wunderlust for Cream is so thick that that is why I dont respond. 

Ask hank Raymonds if Mu made him!! 

Dis MU make Majerus...hmm lets see a an overweight manger becomes the head coach at Mu not to mention the education.  Ahh read his book(s) its about 300 pages of how Mu made him.

Deane never gets another job if he does not take a coauple Mu teams to the NCAA's.  Gave him  antional stage to showcase his coaching ability.  he is still coaching becuase Mu made him a name.

Oneill...how many times does he need to state in interviews that Mu was the best thing to have happened to him and he regrets having ever left?

and our former coach....an assistant B4 MU made him...let's see where he is in 6-7 years.  He who laughs last laughs hardest.

I guess I misunderstood your comment.  I thought we were talking about head coaching experience. 

I assumed  that when you said "made" you implied something more than just adding the name "Marquette" to a failed coaching gig then taking a huge step backwards simply to land any job.

If you feel that these guys needed MU to "make" them so that they could step up to Ball State, Gannon or Lamar, then we're starting out with different assumptions.

I have no problem with the concept that an MU coach would leave to take the job at Indiana or UCLA or Kansas or Duke or UNC. 

I'm less positive with the idea that MU should be considered the stepping stone to the head coaching jobs at Lamar, Gannon, or Ball State, or even Tennessee. 

And the fundamental issue is why you don't give Crean due credit for outperforming Majerus, Deane, Dukeit and Raymonds when he was given the same oppportunity?   

You can dislike the guy personally, but you can't possibly argue that he was less successful on the court.  Same tradition.  Same heritage.  Better performance.   

[MR.HAYWARD]

crean out performe raymonds??  wow t

[Pardner]

Here is how some men settle their disputes   

Warning...can be graphic.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3361421

[Marquette84]

crean out performe raymonds??  wow t

Yes.  Isn't it obvious?

In my mind its a no-brainer.  I can give you a half-dozen solid reasons.

But please, you go first.  Explain what makes you think Raymonds did a better job than Crean.

[Badgerhater]

Basketball was dead at Marquette at the end of the Deane years.  As a student, I could walk into the BC 5 minutes before the game and get a prime lower bowl student seat.  The only time we really did not have really good seats is when Cincinnati or Louisville was in town for an ESPN game.  At the time, the MU bench was by the student section and it was so quiet in there you could hear Mike Deane swear when he called three time outs in the first two minutes of the game.

In 1998, MU was in the NIT and had a game at the Bradley Center.  Bo Ellis showed up at the Varsity Theater to give away tickets to the Western Civ class of about 400 students and he could not give them away.  It was pretty pathetic.

While a self-absorbed jag (like most good coaches), TC worked his butt off and did his part to elevate this program to where it is today.  Lets thank him for his success at MU, focus on the present and future and leave it at that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

crean out performe raymonds??  wow t

Of course he did, ON EVERY level.   I'd love to hear how Raymonds outperformed as head coach over Crean, especially considering what Raymonds was handed (a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM with 10 straight NCAA invitations) and the #2 program of the 1970's.

Raymonds parlayed that into 5 NCAA bids and 3 NCAA wins vs 5 NCAA losses.  He also went to the NIT and lost in the first round.  He then handed the program over to Majerus who never sniffed the NCAAs because it had become a NIT program by the time Raymonds was done with it.

Raymonds took a NCAA title team and #2 program in the country for a decade and in 6 years got 3 NCAA wins.

Crean took a program not even able to make the NIT and in his first 6 years had 4 NCAA wins (more than Hank), a Final Four, a Conference title, multiple NIT wins, etc.

It's not even close.



Look, Raymonds was a terrific assistant coach.  Sometimes people are better suited in those positions and become fabulous in them.  Hank was one of those guys.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Just as in management there are people that make outstanding managers, the best, but not necessarily as Vice Presidents or what have you.  Some folks are better in that secondary role.  Others are better at directing folks, are more comfortable with it.   Hank was a premier assistant coach.  He had to follow Al, which was difficult, but he struggled to keep MU anywhere close to what it was under McGuire.

[4everwarriors]

  Lets thank him for his success at MU, focus on the present and future and leave it at that.

Thank him? Marquette and Wade took him from being Izzo's asswipe to being a multimillionaire. I think the thanking works the other way around.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank him? Marquette and Wade took him from being Izzo's asswipe to being a multimillionaire. I think the thanking works the other way around.

And that ass wipe gave us more basketball success then anyone ever to coach at MU not named Al McGuire.  I know that hurts some of you to say it, but it cannot be factually denied.

[Jules1993MUWarrior]

I've attempted to read most of this and personally have nothing against Crean.  But while many of you think he may be the hero/scapegoat on matters, what you fail to realize is that recruiting starts many years before a player actually chooses a University.  I worked in the MU BB office under O'Neill.  I remember seeing letters sent to Dwade when he was merely a kid.  I was obviously at MU before we were even in a conference.  I saw the discussions about joining a conference, and MU traditionally did not want to be part of one.  While O'Neill was there, MU did.  It was about the revenue dollars.  And they have continued to join bigger conferences throughout the years. 

Was it Crean?  I think not.  It's a business.  And for those of you whom speak of O'Neill not having confidence in MU and jumping ship, you are completely off base.  He was presented a career opportunity and took a chance.  Just like you or I may do as a sales person, accountant, lawyer, business leader.  He took that chance to become head coach at MU and in my opinion did a great job.  I know I sure loved watching the team play in those years, as well as going to IN for their first tourney appearance, then Tennessee when they made it the following year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I've attempted to read most of this and personally have nothing against Crean.  But while many of you think he may be the hero/scapegoat on matters, what you fail to realize is that recruiting starts many years before a player actually chooses a University.  I worked in the MU BB office under O'Neill.  I remember seeing letters sent to Dwade when he was merely a kid.  I was obviously at MU before we were even in a conference.  I saw the discussions about joining a conference, and MU traditionally did not want to be part of one.  While O'Neill was there, MU did.  It was about the revenue dollars.  And they have continued to join bigger conferences throughout the years. 

Was it Crean?  I think not.  It's a business.  And for those of you whom speak of O'Neill not having confidence in MU and jumping ship, you are completely off base.  He was presented a career opportunity and took a chance.  Just like you or I may do as a sales person, accountant, lawyer, business leader.  He took that chance to become head coach at MU and in my opinion did a great job.  I know I sure loved watching the team play in those years, as well as going to IN for their first tourney appearance, then Tennessee when they made it the following year.

You saw letters from O'Neill to Wade during his tenure?  He left in 1994.  You're telling me that Wade was getting letters when he was 12 years old and in the 6th grade even though he wasn't recognized as any type of player at that point?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.  Plenty of other Wades around back then, but Dwyane didn't even play any significant minutes until he was a junior in high school.  He was considered small until a growth spurt.

I think you may be confused with who was sending letters.

As for KO, the man did a great job for MU but was constantly putting the university down.  When he wasn't getting "serviced" in his office...ahem....he was quite the coach.  As for other attributes, well I'll just say that there are better husbands, fathers and human beings out there.  But he did do a helluva job getting MU back from the depths. 

[mviale]

Ouch - chicos - The Oneill years sound better than Housewives of OC.

[Marquette84]

I think you may be confused with who was sending letters.

Either that, or misrepresenting the letters sent to grade school kids for MU's summer camp as a recruiting letter.