Cardinal Stritch Closing

[The Sultan]

Limestone added football about 10 years ago to increase enrollment. I've read somewhere between 50% to 70% of students were athletes (D2). Their lacrosse program is a powerhouse.

This will really hurt the local community. The college has an economic impact of $150 million to the local community.

Reading more about Limestone, they lost half their students over the last dozen years, had $30 million in debt, and were spending down their endowment just to keep the place going. That's just not sustainable.

I will say this, I think one thing the last 10-15 years have shown is that going into significant debt for athletics and other facilities is not going to grow enrollment long-term. Have an endowment to fund scholarships, keep your debt low, have decent but not extravagent facilities, and have programs that will attract employers is the way to manage yourself these days. Too many schools are heading down the athletics path to build enrollment, so schools have to significantly discount just to get them on campus. It's just not sustainable.

And we aren't even at the "demographic cliff" yet.

[Billy Hoyle]

Reading more about Limestone, they lost half their students over the last dozen years, had $30 million in debt, and were spending down their endowment just to keep the place going. That's just not sustainable.

I will say this, I think one thing the last 10-15 years have shown is that going into significant debt for athletics and other facilities is not going to grow enrollment long-term. Have an endowment to fund scholarships, keep your debt low, have decent but not extravagent facilities, and have programs that will attract employers is the way to manage yourself these days. Too many schools are heading down the athletics path to build enrollment, so schools have to significantly discount just to get them on campus. It's just not sustainable.

And we aren't even at the "demographic cliff" yet.

Finlandia in the UP tried to football route too, and used sports to try to attract more international students and ended up shutting down. Parents and kids are recognizing the ROI on going to schools like this so they can play sports isn't worth it.

Last year, I read about a student-athlete who went to a school called Alderson Broaddus to compete in tumbling,g and it closed. She transferred to Notre Dame of Ohio and it closed the following year. This is just the beginning of the college herd being thinned out.

[The Sultan]

I would guess that a lot of these schools' boards and administrators knew they were headed nowhere a couple of years before they eventually closed. And really all that does is screw the students over. I mean, it's late April!

[The Lens]

Sultan, recently  have been to Ripon and Carthage for track meets.  Their facilities (for all sports) are fantastic.  I have also been to UW-Whitewater, which is kind of a dump (comparitively).  How does this math work?

What's the ROI for Ripon?  Are that many kids supposedly going to pay to play D3?

[Uncle Rico]

I would guess that a lot of these schools' boards and administrators knew they were headed nowhere a couple of years before they eventually closed. And really all that does is screw the students over. I mean, it's late April!

Less institutes of higher learning will be fine with all the factories that will be opening in the next decade.  Will still be plenty of opportunities for future generations

[Billy Hoyle]

Last year, Birmingham Southern made news with their baseball team advancing to the D3 CWS after the school shut down. Limestone's men's LAX team is #2 in the nation in D2. This could be a fun story in the next few weeks if they can make a run.

[The Sultan]

Sultan, recently  have been to Ripon and Carthage for track meets.  Their facilities (for all sports) are fantastic.  I have also been to UW-Whitewater, which is kind of a dump (comparitively).  How does this math work?

What's the ROI for Ripon?  Are that many kids supposedly going to pay to play D3?

Well, first, I am largely talking about private schools. UW-Whitewater has the benefit of being a public institution, levying student fees, and using the borrowing power of the University System. And they are going to have a naturally larger recruiting pool because its less expensive to go there. IOW, their facilities don't necessarily need to stack up.

For a school like Ripon, the math is that if you can recruit more student-athletes, who hypotethically wouldn't attend otherwise, you can just do back of the envelope calculations to determine how profitable that might be. But the problem is that you often have to discount more than you think to get those students because, no, there aren't as many students wanting to play D3 as many of these places think.

I know they just built that new football stadium, I know it wasn't 100% donor funded, and I know they have over $35 million in debt and have to pay about $1.2 million in interest on a $50 million budget. That is a higher debt-load and interest payments than schools I have worked with budgets 2-3x Ripon's.

Now I have no idea if they are in any sort of precarious financial postion. Schools like Limestone and St. Andrew's are way worse off. But they have gone all in on athletics - I hope it works for them but I guess we will see in the next 10-15 years.

[JWags85]

Ive always been sort of fascinated by the draw of the kind of schools we are talking about, the uber small private colleges.

 Between friends and family and now work associates, Ive known people that have went to all sorts of schools, but Ive never known someone that went to one of the private college/universities with under 1000 kids, with the exception of a family friend who went to Ripon.   And as to the earlier point, he played basketball at Ripon and the facilities/focus on athletics ended up overriding the size of the school, which was a big negative.  It was basically half the size of his HS, and he didn't go to a massive HS.

[MU82]

Ive always been sort of fascinated by the draw of the kind of schools we are talking about, the uber small private colleges.

 Between friends and family and now work associates, Ive known people that have went to all sorts of schools, but Ive never known someone that went to one of the private college/universities with under 1000 kids, with the exception of a family friend who went to Ripon.   And as to the earlier point, he played basketball at Ripon and the facilities/focus on athletics ended up overriding the size of the school, which was a big negative.  It was basically half the size of his HS, and he didn't go to a massive HS.

My daughter went to Lawrence, approx enrollment 1500 then and now. And yes, that she could play basketball there was part of the allure. I thought she received an excellent education and, more importantly, grew up to become a productive contributor to society.

She did not want to go to a major university, or even a medium-sized college. She wanted a more personal experience, and in the end she felt the mission was accomplished.

Lawrence sure seemed like a well-run university that was in good financial shape back then, and I hope that's still the case. Websites list their endowment at $440 million; I hope that's considered "good."

I still receive requests for donations from them, but I always forward them to my daughter. My wife and I gave Lawrence more than enough $$$ - as well as the honor of having a bright young woman at their institution for four years. When we donate to a university now, it's our own alma mater!

[The Sultan]

Ive always been sort of fascinated by the draw of the kind of schools we are talking about, the uber small private colleges.

 Between friends and family and now work associates, Ive known people that have went to all sorts of schools, but Ive never known someone that went to one of the private college/universities with under 1000 kids, with the exception of a family friend who went to Ripon.   And as to the earlier point, he played basketball at Ripon and the facilities/focus on athletics ended up overriding the size of the school, which was a big negative.  It was basically half the size of his HS, and he didn't go to a massive HS.

The student profile of Lawrence is going to be pretty different than that of Ripon. Lawrence is a top 40 liberal arts college that draws academic achieving students from around the country. They probably compete with a number of similar schools (Kalamazoo, DePauw) as well as a public flagships.

Ripon would be more local / regional, and their student body is going to be more in line with a regional comprehensive public, but who seek the smaller size and/or the ability to continue as an athlete.

[MUBurrow]

Rural, poorly endowed (St. Andrews had an endowment of $12 million...yikes), and small. Common theme for a lot of these.

Sounds like teenage me.

[JWags85]

My daughter went to Lawrence, approx enrollment 1500 then and now. And yes, that she could play basketball there was part of the allure. I thought she received an excellent education and, more importantly, grew up to become a productive contributor to society.

She did not want to go to a major university, or even a medium-sized college. She wanted a more personal experience, and in the end she felt the mission was accomplished.

Totally fair.  I always thought Lawrence was a bit bigger (like 2500 ish), but still bigger than the schools I was thinking of.  Additionally, not that Appleton is a metropolis, but its still a decent sized city right that Lawrence is in the center of.  I have a cousin that went to Macalester which is similar in size but also very much an urban campus.  Also a highly regarded school with a national profile like Lawrence.

And not to be moving goalposts, but 1500 to me is still a BIG difference to 800-900ish for example.  I was thinking more these sub-1000 student schools not in an urban area at all.

[MU82]

Thanks for the responses, Sultan and Wags.

My daughter's final three choices were Lawrence, Grinnell and Carleton. The latter two are slightly larger than Lawrence and I think get rated higher by most of those who rate these things.

She chose Lawrence largely because it was closer to home (Chicago). They also gave her a better financial aid package, and she clicked with the basketball coach. And yes, she liked that, compared to Grinnell, Iowa, and Northfield, Minn., Appleton was practically a metropolis.

In retrospect, she's got no complaints, and neither do I.

[The Lens]

Well, first, I am largely talking about private schools. UW-Whitewater has the benefit of being a public institution, levying student fees, and using the borrowing power of the University System. And they are going to have a naturally larger recruiting pool because its less expensive to go there. IOW, their facilities don't necessarily need to stack up.

For a school like Ripon, the math is that if you can recruit more student-athletes, who hypotethically wouldn't attend otherwise, you can just do back of the envelope calculations to determine how profitable that might be. But the problem is that you often have to discount more than you think to get those students because, no, there aren't as many students wanting to play D3 as many of these places think.

I know they just built that new football stadium, I know it wasn't 100% donor funded, and I know they have over $35 million in debt and have to pay about $1.2 million in interest on a $50 million budget. That is a higher debt-load and interest payments than schools I have worked with budgets 2-3x Ripon's.

Now I have no idea if they are in any sort of precarious financial postion. Schools like Limestone and St. Andrew's are way worse off. But they have gone all in on athletics - I hope it works for them but I guess we will see in the next 10-15 years.

My point in including UWW was that their facilities are poor despite lower tuition so you'd think they could recruit easier bc it's easier to convince a kid to pay $10K to play D3 rather than $30K.

I'm fascinated by the Ripon model.  How many of these kids are paying anywhere close to retail for the privilege of playing for Ripon?  Ripon & Carthage have BEAUTIFUL facilities.  It makes no (financial) sense to me.

[The Sultan]

My point in including UWW was that their facilities are poor despite lower tuition so you'd think they could recruit easier bc it's easier to convince a kid to pay $10K to play D3 rather than $30K.

Oh I agree with you. That's why WIAC schools are almost always better than the various private school conferences in Wisconsin. They are recruiting the better athletes because of the price point. Whitewater's facilities aren't great, but they are certainly good enough.
 

I'm fascinated by the Ripon model.  How many of these kids are paying anywhere close to retail for the privilege of playing for Ripon?  Ripon & Carthage have BEAUTIFUL facilities.  It makes no (financial) sense to me.

Hardly anyone is paying full freight and that's the problem. The economic model requires a certain level of tuition, and my *guess* is that it is very hard for them to reach that level. (At least at Ripon - I have no idea about Carthage which benefits from a MUCH better location.)