🇮🇱 vs 🇮🇷

[MuggsyB]

I'm not rooting for anyone since war is bad.  But you can't just say this sort of thing because you've heard it a thousand times.

Israel attacked another country, completely unprovoked.  We've been hearing for decades that Iran is "days" or "weeks" away from getting a nuclear weapon.  If that has always been the case, then we probably need to ask ourselves why are they only being attacked last week?  Was there actually a tangible threat to Israel, or was it merely the next thing the current Israeli government wanted to do to remain in power? 

I don't disagree with the fact that Iran's government isn't great, but they were not the aggressors here.  If anyone has the right to defend themselves in this situation, it's Iran.

They didn't "attack another country".

[Hards Alumni]

They didn't "attack another country".

Sure they did.  Israel launched a surprise attack on Iran on the 13th of June.  The day you started this thread.

[MUBurrow]

They didn't "attack another country".

There's a lot of room for disagreement in this conflict, but this is an insane take.

[JWags85]

I'm not rooting for anyone since war is bad.  But you can't just say this sort of thing because you've heard it a thousand times.

Israel attacked another country, completely unprovoked.  We've been hearing for decades that Iran is "days" or "weeks" away from getting a nuclear weapon.  If that has always been the case, then we probably need to ask ourselves why are they only being attacked last week?  Was there actually a tangible threat to Israel, or was it merely the next thing the current Israeli government wanted to do to remain in power? 

I don't disagree with the fact that Iran's government isn't great, but they were not the aggressors here.  If anyone has the right to defend themselves in this situation, it's Iran.

Devil's advocate, if Israel knew 100% without a doubt, that Iran was funding and arming every rebel/Islamic militant group that is regularly attacking and attempting to kill Israeli citizens, is it still unprovoked?

And why now?  I absolutely think there is some element of Netanyahu playing to CYA and divert attention.  But also, by all accounts, this was a multi-year operation with tons of spycraft, logistic building, and movement tracking all within Iran, to develop the foundation of the attack.  Its not like Israel woke up one day and decided to aggressively fire a few ICBM's into Iran from the Levant.

I don't disagree with the fact that Iran's government isn't great, but they were not the aggressors here.  If anyone has the right to defend themselves in this situation, it's Iran.

Ive never argued that they don't.  I certainly wouldn't expect Iran to just sit and take the aggression.  But that being said, again, the Ayatollah and the mullahs despise everything the United States stands for, and not just Trump/MAGA or the current political climate, pick the most admirable/idealistic version of the US in the last 75 years and they still despise it.  Thats who people are cheering for out of pure spite and hatred of Israel and tribalism of the day.  Its not some veneration of the Iranian people or their well being.

The same people who were loudly cheering and protesting the uprising in Iran a few years ago when advocates and protestors went missing/were killed...are now cheering for that same government and military cause they don't like Israel.

[Hards Alumni]

Devil's advocate, if Israel knew 100% without a doubt, that Iran was funding and arming every rebel/Islamic militant group that is regularly attacking and attempting to kill Israeli citizens, is it still unprovoked?

And why now?  I absolutely think there is some element of Netanyahu playing to CYA and divert attention.  But also, by all accounts, this was a multi-year operation with tons of spycraft, logistic building, and movement tracking all within Iran, to develop the foundation of the attack.  Its not like Israel woke up one day and decided to aggressively fire a few ICBM's into Iran from the Levant.

And that's fine, but it wasn't the reason they gave.

Ive never argued that they don't.  I certainly wouldn't expect Iran to just sit and take the aggression.  But that being said, again, the Ayatollah and the mullahs despise everything the United States stands for, and not just Trump/MAGA or the current political climate, pick the most admirable/idealistic version of the US in the last 75 years and they still despise it.  Thats who people are cheering for out of pure spite and hatred of Israel and tribalism of the day.  Its not some veneration of the Iranian people or their well being.

The same people who were loudly cheering and protesting the uprising in Iran a few years ago when advocates and protestors went missing/were killed...are now cheering for that same government and military cause they don't like Israel.

Iran has good reason to dislike the USA, we sort of overthrew their democratically elected government in 1953 and installed a puppet.

And anyone cheering for one side or the other is ghoulish.  There are no good actors here, and only death will come from all of this.  Many innocent civilians have already paid with their lives.

Plus, I am fairly confident that the US is about to get dragged into this mess.

[Shaka Shart]

At the end of the day it's the innocent civilians of the involved and surrounding nations that will be paying the biggest price for factors out of their control.

Both Iran and Israel are gorgeous parts of the world and it's a damn shame how the past 100 years have had the people in the region been treated as no better than cattle, cynical bargaining chips, and outright cannon fodder.

I hope to someday be able to see Tehran with my own eyes, as well as places like Damascus, Jerusalem, etc.

you simply cannot have street food of that caliber locked away from me!

[MUBurrow]

IMHO the legacy of this will be just another case of the West punching itself in the dick vis-a-vis Iran.  The Iranian population is probably among the most heterogenous in the middle east, and among the most fertile ground to encourage democratic values.  But the Ayatollah's regime is just too tempting a target for Western leaders to resist, and every 10 years or so someone makes a hamfisted show to make political hay, bolsters the case of the religious conservatives, and sets the whole project back again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[MU82]

My Israeli brother suffered a major heart incident and a stroke in early April and has been in Tel Aviv medical facilities since (he's in long-term rehab now). He is recovering, albeit slowly. His wife posted this on our family chat yesterday:

"He is well aware of the war, and he said that he had heard all the warning alarms and sirens. He didn't have to be moved to a shelter, at least not yet, but I am pleased that his bed isn't by the window - in his state, he doesn't need to see bombs going off and all the smoke."

Just thought maybe folks would appreciate a real face being put on this situation, which is yet another Middle East sh!tshow.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

IMHO the legacy of this will be just another case of the West punching itself in the dick vis-a-vis Iran.  The Iranian population is probably among the most heterogenous in the middle east, and among the most fertile ground to encourage democratic values.  But the Ayatollah's regime is just too tempting a target for Western leaders to resist, and every 10 years or so someone makes a hamfisted show to make political hay, bolsters the case of the religious conservatives, and sets the whole project back again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I've read multiple times over the last couple years that the Iranian people overwhelmingly hate the ruling religious group but don't know how to push out of control.

[tower912]

They could put on police uniforms and go door to door in the middle of the night.

[The Sultan]

IMHO the legacy of this will be just another case of the West punching itself in the dick vis-a-vis Iran.  The Iranian population is probably among the most heterogenous in the middle east, and among the most fertile ground to encourage democratic values.  But the Ayatollah's regime is just too tempting a target for Western leaders to resist, and every 10 years or so someone makes a hamfisted show to make political hay, bolsters the case of the religious conservatives, and sets the whole project back again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

This sounds terribly naive. How do you think the west can "encourage democratic values" when the state is being run by a religious dictatorship?

[Billy Hoyle]

now this is amusing:

https://x.com/FaytuksNetwork/status/1934629371626901679

[Pakuni]

This sounds terribly naive. How do you think the west can "encourage democratic values" when the state is being run by a religious dictatorship?

Polls consistently show the Iranian people are far more moderate and open to the West, including democratic values, than the religious dictatorship. They also show that most Iranians disapprove of the religious dictatorship and blame it for the country's problems.
The mullahs have all the guns right now, but history shows that you can only retain power at the end of a muzzle for so long when the populace holds you - not your "enemies" - responsible for their struggles. Just ask the Soviets.