Marquette Basketball Trend

[skianth16]

Same with Wes. And Butler. And Crowder.

Strongly disagree on Wes and Crowder. Wes was the 3rd or 4th option in his first 3 years at MU. He even thanked Buzz in his senior day speech for giving him opportunities he didn't have with Crean (slight paraphrase of course). And Crowder was undersized as a big but a little slow for a wing, not quite right for a standard college basketball role. I'm not sure how many other coaches would have allowed him to play the role/minutes he did at MU.

I think Buzz did a great job of knowing what his guys were capable of and then finding ways to highlight their talents in his gameplans. I don't think all coaches are able/willing to do this.

[jesmu84]

Strongly disagree on Wes and Crowder. Wes was the 3rd or 4th option in his first 3 years at MU. He even thanked Buzz in his senior day speech for giving him opportunities he didn't have with Crean (slight paraphrase of course). And Crowder was undersized as a big but a little slow for a wing, not quite right for a standard college basketball role. I'm not sure how many other coaches would have allowed him to play the role/minutes he did at MU.

I think Buzz did a great job of knowing what his guys were capable of and then finding ways to highlight their talents in his gameplans. I don't think all coaches are able/willing to do this.

So, even after seeing Juan's appearance in the NBA contrasted with his extremely low college production, you truly believe Wes or Crowder - juco POY - wouldn't have gotten into the NBA without Buzz?

[Golden Avalanche]

He has a losing record in conference over 6 seasons....

Willard has a losing record in conference over 10 years.

[skianth16]

So, even after seeing Juan's appearance in the NBA contrasted with his extremely low college production, you truly believe Wes or Crowder - juco POY - wouldn't have gotten into the NBA without Buzz?

I'm not sure I follow the Juan Anderson piece here.

As for Crowder, I don't know the numbers, but I doubt many other JUCO POYs made it to the NBA. Buzz probably wasn't the only coach that was able to get those guys into the league, but I don't think Wes and Crowder would have been in the NBA without Buzz's coaching. Of course, they deserve a ton of credit for putting the work in, but I give some credit to Buzz for developing that work ethic too.

[jesmu84]

I'm not sure I follow the Juan Anderson piece here.

As for Crowder, I don't know the numbers, but I doubt many other JUCO POYs made it to the NBA. Buzz probably wasn't the only coach that was able to get those guys into the league, but I don't think Wes and Crowder would have been in the NBA without Buzz's coaching. Of course, they deserve a ton of credit for putting the work in, but I give some credit to Buzz for developing that work ethic too.

With regards to Juan - his college production, or lack thereof - certainly didn't preclude him from getting to the NBA.

With Wes, he had already had 3 extremely productive college seasons. His chances at the NBA were already good.  Much better than Juan.

Did buzz make Jae and perhaps Wes better? Sure. But they had already achieved quite a bit on their own (significantly more than Juan). So I believe they would have made it with or without Buzz.

[JWags85]

With regards to Juan - his college production, or lack thereof - certainly didn't preclude him from getting to the NBA.

With Wes, he had already had 3 extremely productive college seasons. His chances at the NBA were already good.  Much better than Juan.

Did buzz make Jae and perhaps Wes better? Sure. But they had already achieved quite a bit on their own (significantly more than Juan). So I believe they would have made it with or without Buzz.

With all due respect, that's completely incorrect revisionist history. He averaged 11 pts and 4 rebounds those first 3 seasons on average at best percentages. If he averaged 12 and 5 again as a senior, he wasn't making an ALL-BE team and he wasn't on scouts radar's, especially as a relatively undersized 2/3. Juan averaged 8 and 6 as a senior with much better size, and didn't even get a Summer League invite. Wes' has a great work ethic and developed. But without Buzz, if he made the NBA it would have been a more Buycks-like route. He never had a "good chance" at the NBA based on his Crean years

[4everwarriors]

Too Tanned Tommy used his NBA connections on Juan. Still waitin' on da Tommy and Joanie Crean Memorial Soccer Megaplex, aina?

[Elonsmusk]

He's at least somewhat able, he'd have a great career somewhere with lower expectations. He'd bring in big recruits and be on the right side of the bubble more than not. He's just not able to hit MU expectations. I think the biggest issue that made this whole "projo" vs "nojo" argument so polarizing is a lot of the people who are considered "projo" aren't willing to use the ridiculous hyperbole used frequently by "nojos" seen here.

Yet ProJos are adamant that coming into a program that made NCAA in 8 of 9 prior seasons, and included 7, Top 100 players, 4 of which were sophomores, was a "dumpster fire," and "empty cupboard."  Talk about hyperbole.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yet ProJos are adamant that coming into a program that made NCAA in 8 of 9 prior seasons, and included 7, Top 100 players, 4 of which were sophomores, was a "dumpster fire," and "empty cupboard."  Talk about hyperbole.

What does recruiting rankings from 2+ years ago and what the program did 2+ years ago have to do with the quality of the roster in the first year?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

To tracking players that enter the NBA is an important stat.  1. It means the coach finds pretty great players and 2. It means the coach created an environment where the player could improve.

So, I dont think Buzz made Jimmy or Jae a pro player--but he got them to attend Marquette and created an environment for them to improve/succeed.  Could that have happened elsewhere, sure, but I dont care about those places.

[Elonsmusk]

What does recruiting rankings from 2+ years ago and what the program did 2+ years ago have to do with the quality of the roster in the first year?

There was plenty of talent in the program when Wojo was hired. As virtually everyone can now agree...Wojo isn't a very good basketball coach. And he was even worse his first two years on he job.

Nobody's fault but his own as to why we performed so bad those first two years.  He's also to blame for losing the Hausers. 

At some point I'd think you would get tired of making excuses for the guy...it's almost to the John Dodd's level of Pollyanna.

[BM1090]

There was plenty of talent in the program when Wojo was hired. As virtually everyone can now agree...Wojo isn't a very good basketball coach. And he was even worse his first two years on he job.

Nobody's fault but his own as to why we performed so bad those first two years.  He's also to blame for losing the Hausers. 

At some point I'd think you would get tired of making excuses for the guy...it's almost to the John Dodd's level of Pollyanna.

No there wasn't. Buzz couldn't win with that talent then 4 of the best players graduated/were kicked off the team. The talent sucked. Kenpom preseason #87 says it all. Juan was our best Buzz leftover and second best player behind Carlino. Terrible roster that Buzz constructed.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons you can cite to show Wojo hasn't been good. Use them. Using this stupid fucking argument over and over just makes it harder for people to take you seriously when you make legitimately good points.

[Galway Eagle]

Yet ProJos are adamant that coming into a program that made NCAA in 8 of 9 prior seasons, and included 7, Top 100 players, 4 of which were sophomores, was a "dumpster fire," and "empty cupboard."  Talk about hyperbole.

You are so predictable. Next you can ignore the responses using facts, claim Wojo is worse than deane and ignore the facts using more ridiculous hyperbole. BM1090 put it right, there are legitimate reasons to dislike Wojo's coaching this year and last year and IMO the year before. Stick to facts not statements based on what you believe because you buy too much into the recruiting rankings.

[wadesworld]

There was plenty of talent in the program when Wojo was hired. As virtually everyone can now agree...Wojo isn't a very good basketball coach. And he was even worse his first two years on he job.

Nobody's fault but his own as to why we performed so bad those first two years.  He's also to blame for losing the Hausers. 

At some point I'd think you would get tired of making excuses for the guy...it's almost to the John Dodd's level of Pollyanna.

There was so much talent on that roster for Wojo to work with in year one that all of two players from the team (outside of Carlino, who Wojo brought in himself) wound up being anything more than a role player on a high major team in his career, despite numerous guys from that roster having played for more than just Wojo.  And one of those two players transferred out after his mother died.  But you've claimed he's lying and using his mother's death as an excuse, so forget I said that.

So much talent left behind for Wojo that the almighty Buzz Williams took all that talent PLUS a senior Jamil Wilson, senior Davante Gardner, 6th year senior Chris Otule, and junior Todd Mayo and took them all the way to...a postseason-less year the prior year.  17-15.  With all that talent!

But hey, he had Magic Johnson Dawson to work with.  Only Wojo could mess up not giving that guy 40 minutes a night.  There's proof that he just needed the opportunity out there.  He totally dominated the juggernaut Big South conference when he got there...err...

Love this stuff Ners.  Keep it up, you're killing it.

[jesmu84]

Yet ProJos are adamant that coming into a program that made NCAA in 8 of 9 prior seasons, and included 7, Top 100 players, 4 of which were sophomores, was a "dumpster fire," and "empty cupboard."  Talk about hyperbole.

Re: empty cupboard/recruit rankings... What were the preseason kenpom numbers and value add numbers for MU in wojos first year?

[CountryRoads]

Anyone remember why Wojo didn't even attempt to get any guys into the program in year one? It was a totally wasted year. I thought he could have done a better job.

[4everwarriors]

Mofo wuz on a honeymoon and had da luxury of thyme, hey?

[wadesworld]

Anyone remember why Wojo didn't even attempt to get any guys into the program in year one? It was a totally wasted year. I thought he could have done a better job.

What does this even mean? Yeah, let's knock Wojo because he couldn't get the kids he was recruiting to follow him to MU. If he was even making any effort we would've had Tyus Jones, Jhalil Okafor, and Justice Winslow and we would've won a Natty his first year.

[CountryRoads]

What does this even mean? Yeah, let's knock Wojo because he couldn't get the kids he was recruiting to follow him to MU. If he was even making any effort we would've had Tyus Jones, Jhalil Okafor, and Justice Winslow and we would've won a Natty his first year.

Huh? He explicitly said, "This isn't a patch job." Then proceeds to sign a chucker on a team that wasn't going anywhere anyway. I'm just saying I thought he could have either brought in a few pieces of his own or at least started to give bigger roles to guys who would have been on the following year's team. Not sure why the rebuild didn't start in year 1 if the cupboard was so bare.

[Silent Verbal]

In year one, Wojo actually gave us a preview of his "all of it, all the time" coaching model, and we didn't even know it.  As in, promise one guy all of it, all the time and hope that his assistants, including Chris "Dead Weight" Carrawell and Brett "The Shot Doctor" Nelson (Physician, heal thyself!) could coach the other guys up.

[Lennys Tap]

The real issue isn't whether or not Wojo inherited a "bare cupboard". It's why, in year 6, he is one (1) player away from a bare cupboard. Markus is an all timer at Marquette, a guy whose jersey will be hoisted to the rafters alongside GT's, Dean's, Bo's, Luke's and Dwyane's. And his epitaph will include never playing on a team that finished in the top 25 and very possibly never playing on a team that won an NCAA tournament game. Not many 4 year players who are 2 time All Americans can say that. Thanks Wojo.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Anyone remember why Wojo didn't even attempt to get any guys into the program in year one? It was a totally wasted year. I thought he could have done a better job.

A while back I looked at what players were still uncommitted when Wojo was hired. IIRC, there were only like 8 top 125 players that were uncommitted at the point and most of them were 5-stars that were heading to blue bloods. Recruiting rankings aren't everything of course, there may have been some uncommitted three stars who could have panned out but you don't want to fill your roster with 4 years guys that aren't going to be players.

Remember Wojo did go after and land Gabe Levin as a traditional transfer in that first summer. Then Henry Ellenson did his official visit, gave a soft verbal, and Levin was gone like a day later. Don't know how he would have panned out at Marquette but he ended up being an 18 and 8 guy at Long Beach State.