aaron hernandez

[MU82]

+1. What beach 82?

We were at Queen's Bath, on the north edge of Kauai, near Princeville.

Been many times, never had a harrowing incident like this. I often talked about when I die, I want to be cremated and have my ashes strewn into Queen's Bath. After surviving this incident, there was more than a little gallows humor about Queen's Bath not being willing to wait for me but instead actually coming to get me!

[Sir Lawrence]

MU82, thanks for sharing. 

What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards?  As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc.  Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies.  So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak.  But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?

[GGGG]

MU82, thanks for sharing. 

What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards?  As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc.  Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies.  So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak.  But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?

Do Judeo-Christian moral codes calibrate the compass?  How do we explain similar moral codes among portions of world that traditionally not had access to Judeo-Christianity?

[MU82]

MU82, thanks for sharing. 

What I'm trying to figure out, is how does society promulgate appropriate moral standards in the absence of appropriate education in those standards?  As you confirmed, your belief system was obtained by being raised in a Jewish household, studying for bar mitzvah, etc.  Your children were raised by your high moral standards, and then supplemented by their own bar/bat mitzvah studies.  So you all had a rather vigorous steeping in the Judaeo moral code, so to speak.  But where does the kid attending a non-religious school in the poor areas of [fill in just about any urban location here] get the compass calibrated?

I think it's a leap to say my values was formed by being raised in a Jewish household. As I said, we were "holiday Jews," and it wasn't a huge part of my upbringing. My values were formed by great parenting, and I like to think my kids' values were formed at least by my wife's great parenting.

We all are influenced by our environments. I was mostly influenced by my parents being great people of high moral standards who did the right thing "just because."

To answer your last question, I don't know where such kids go to get their "compass calibrated." I don't pretend to have the answers. One of the true tragedies is the number of kids born into situations with poor parenting, only one parent, etc. I like it when the politicians say, "We need to fix that," as if there's an effen fix to it.

I understand that for many people, thinking about a higher power motivates them, centers them, "calibrates their compasses," etc. I happen to think it's a crutch, but who the hell am I?

[Sir Lawrence]

Do Judeo-Christian moral codes calibrate the compass?  How do we explain similar moral codes among portions of world that traditionally not had access to Judeo-Christianity?

I never implied that at all.  I just indicated that that's what set his compass.  I'm in complete agreement that other religious systems can provide a framework to imbue morality.  My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education.  Where is it coming from?  Where should it come from?  I know that it should be the parents, but we all know that's not happening with regularity.  But everyone has to go to school.  Is it (some form of ethics or morality) in today's K5-8 curriculum?  I should know, but I'm afraid I don't.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

MU82-

"Holiday Christians" should be referred to in the proper lexicon: C.E.O. Christians- Christmas and Easter Only

[Dr. Blackheart]

We were at Queen's Bath, on the north edge of Kauai, near Princeville.

Been many times, never had a harrowing incident like this. I often talked about when I die, I want to be cremated and have my ashes strewn into Queen's Bath. After surviving this incident, there was more than a little gallows humor about Queen's Bath not being willing to wait for me but instead actually coming to get me!

Ah, The Dead Pool. Kauai is very rough in the winter. Glad you kept your bearings considering the other great news on your trip.

[GGGG]

I never implied that at all.  I just indicated that that's what set his compass.  I'm in complete agreement that other religious systems can provide a framework to imbue morality.  My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education.  Where is it coming from?  Where should it come from?  I know that it should be the parents, but we all know that's not happening with regularity.  But everyone has to go to school.  Is it (some form of ethics or morality) in today's K5-8 curriculum?  I should know, but I'm afraid I don't.

OK.  Got it.  I think it is mostly due to parents, but there is some normalization that goes along simply with being part of a society.  I also think part of it is genetic.  Traits like empathy for instance might be considered desirable and lead to genetic selection that rewarded that trait.

[MU82]

MU82-

"Holiday Christians" should be referred to in the proper lexicon: C.E.O. Christians- Christmas and Easter Only

Never heard that one - I like it and probably will use it!

[MU82]

My interest is in how can society establish an appropriate moral code without some form of education.  Where is it coming from?  Where should it come from?

My simple answer to these complex situations is ...

I don't know.

I'm pretty sure that trying to "legislate morality," as the country has tried to do and as states keep trying to do, has not proven to be an effective "cure."

Part of the reason for that is what one person considers immoral (say, abortion or the death penalty), another might consider A-OK.

[Sir Lawrence]

I'm pretty sure that trying to "legislate morality," as the country has tried to do and as states keep trying to do, has not proven to be an effective "cure."

Part of the reason for that is what one person considers immoral (say, abortion or the death penalty), another might consider A-OK.

Actually, we've been legislating morality rather successfully for a long time.  It's against the law to rape, steal, trespass, drive impaired, kidnap a child, bludgeon your spouse, (I'll stop, but it's a long list)--- all laws that punish those who do not adhere to an agreed upon moral code.  There is (I think) universal agreement on certain behavior being morally unacceptable and subject to legislated punishment.  But I do agree with your examples on areas of strong disagreement as to what is "moral" behavior.   

[source?]

Actually, we've been legislating morality rather successfully for a long time.  It's against the law to rape, steal, trespass, drive impaired, kidnap a child, bludgeon your spouse, (I'll stop, but it's a long list)--- all laws that punish those who do not adhere to an agreed upon moral code.  There is (I think) universal agreement on certain behavior being morally unacceptable and subject to legislated punishment.  But I do agree with your examples on areas of strong disagreement as to what is "moral" behavior.

I'm going to try not to get too involved here but I would argue there is a huge difference between simple codification of what is generally universally considered immoral (rape, murder, theft) and attempting to legislate moral issues on which society may never come to agreement. The former  have to be on the books just so criminals can't say "but it's not a law" even though everyone knows it is wrong. There will never be a discussion on whether rape should be legal, just what the punishment will be. The government has a responsibility both to protect innocent citizens by creating these laws but also to put criminals on notice on the consequences for their actions.

[B. McBannerson]

You guys never take one of the American Military History classes at MU?  Most wars are over resources & economics, and that truly cannot be debated.

Land, water, minerals \ precious metals, economic rights, trade routes, oil.   Religion is rarely the cause.  Some revisionist and inaccurate history going on here.

[MU82]

I'm going to try not to get too involved here but I would argue there is a huge difference between simple codification of what is generally universally considered immoral (rape, murder, theft) and attempting to legislate moral issues on which society may never come to agreement. The former  have to be on the books just so criminals can't say "but it's not a law" even though everyone knows it is wrong. There will never be a discussion on whether rape should be legal, just what the punishment will be. The government has a responsibility both to protect innocent citizens by creating these laws but also to put criminals on notice on the consequences for their actions.

This.