Plan B

[shoothoops]

I'm told that while Hologram Al is retired, Moser wants to fill the Associate Head Coach role with Phantom Rick, so it's basically the same staff as SLU with the roles reversed.

Stay classy. At least you are consistent when you don't know what else to say when your inconsistencies are pointed out.

[shoothoops]

I still don't understand what you are getting at with this paragraph. How is comparing SLU's record while Moser was an AC in 2012-2014 to VCU's record while Smart was a head coach during the same time period relevant to who the better head coach of Marquette would be in 2021? Show me where the apples to apples comparison is because I'm not seeing it.

 

So what I'm getting here is that you only care about "results", specifically, league finish because if you're beating your peers, you are doing well. There's some truth to that but there are results you are ignoring. #131 in KenPom, a bad result for a team that just made the final four. Going 0-5 against the top 134 teams in KenPom. Bad result. Losing 10 games to teams ranked #127 and lower in KenPom. Bad result. If you play in a bad league (and the MVC isn't bad every year but it was bad that year) league finish isn't a good barometer for me.

What I'm getting from the rest of your post is that there is some data that you just don't value. And that's fine. There some data I value and other data that I don't. I think the decision makers do value some of that data and I'm glad they do.

I noticed you didn't answer my question about who you are advocating for since you have repeatedly said you are not advocating for Moser. I'm hoping for Craig Smith. I don't think he'll be the pick but based on the information available he's who I'd hire. Who are you hoping for?

It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.

I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.

I would have to go look at it but the non-conference record of the top 4 Big 10 teams this year wasn't good. They had a great season but they struggled as a whole in the NCAA's.

I put a disclaimer on some of my posts because I was seeing where some people would jump to conclusions based on discussion of one coach.

Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.

I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate.  But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.

If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.




 

[Uncle Rico]

It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.
If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.

I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.

I would have to go look at it but the non-conference record of the top 4 Big 10 teams this year wasn't good. They had a great season but they struggled as a whole in the NCAA's.

I put a disclaimer on some of my posts because I was seeing where some people would jump to conclusions based on discussion of one coach.

Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.

I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate.  But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.

If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.

I don’t think Brew ever advocated for Wardle. 

[shoothoops]

I don’t think Brew ever advocated for Wardle.

December 28, 2020, and in follow up posts after, yes.

[brewcity77]

Stay classy. At least you are consistent when you don't know what else to say when your inconsistencies are pointed out.

Good god man, you're tightly wound. Someone clearly can't take a joke.

[brewcity77]

I don’t think Brew ever advocated for Wardle.

I would've happily taken Wardle over Wojo. I would still take Wardle over Wojo. But for those of us living in the present, my preference is Shaka #1, Gates #2, Smith #3, Moser #4. I feel any of the four would be clear upgrades over our departed coach.

[shoothoops]

Good god man, you're tightly wound. Someone clearly can't take a joke.

I believe you are projecting.

[shoothoops]

I would've happily taken Wardle over Wojo. I would still take Wardle over Wojo. But for those of us living in the present, my preference is Shaka #1, Gates #2, Smith #3, Moser #4. I feel any of the four would be clear upgrades over our departed coach.

Previously you weren't considering Moser, and you would have taken Wardle over Moser two months ago based on years of information. That's a pretty big two month swing for you.

[Hards Alumni]

Previously you weren't considering Moser, and you would have taken Wardle over Moser two months ago based on years of information. That's a pretty big two month swing for you.

People are allowed to evolve their opinions.

[shoothoops]

People are allowed to evolve their opinions.

Absolutely, opinions can and do change and evolve over time.

But his post here makes it seem like he would have taken Wardle over Wojo. This omits where it was Wardle over Moser, and Moser was dismissed entirely as a candidate.

[Billy Hoyle]

Majerus at USC

I had forgotten about that. Good call! My buddy, a MU grad, was working at USC at the time and had met with Rick. Apparently the issue was Rick’s mom, she was in poor health and she asked him not to move to California.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It's relevant to compare overlapping time periods in the same league, whether that is as an assistant or head coach. Both you and BrewCity77 have referenced Shaka's time at VCU. Another candidate for the Marquette job worked at a different school in the same league at the same time. That seems to be relevant information. I forgot when Rick Majerus went to Andre Miller's high school instead of Donny Daniels.

If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too. It's okay that many of Moser's recruits did a little better than VCU during that time. VCU was good too. Now all of a sudden for you and BrewCity77, Majerus coached SLU all by himself. That's amazing.

Who said Majerus coached SLU by himself? Surely you recognize that a head coach has more responsibility and gets more credit for a team's success than one of his assistants. You say you value apples to apples comparisons but you are comparing team records between a head coach and guy who was recruiting for a future HOF coach. Moser doesn't get the same level of credit for those years at SLU that Shaka gets for VCU. Sure its another experience on Moser's resume, but the fact that SLU had a better team record at that time is not good evidence that Moser would be a better head coach. Let's play this out.

Duke's Record when Wojo was an assistant:
99: KP 1 ACC 1
00: KP 5 ACC 1
01: KP 1 ACC 1
02: KP 1 ACC 2
03: KP 6 ACC 3
04: KP 1 ACC 1
05: KP 3 ACC 3
06: KP 2 ACC 1
07: KP 10 ACC 6
08: KP 6 ACC 2
09: KP 10 ACC 2
10: KP 1 ACC 1
11: KP 2 ACC 2
12: KP 19 ACC 2
13: KP 6 ACC 2
14: KP 8 ACC 2

Take any slice of this and it is a better record than Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Mike Brey, Leonard Hamilton, and every other ACC coach that Wojo assistant coached against. Is this somehow evidence that Wojo is a better coach than all of these coaches?

If it's valuable to mention Dennis Gates' assistant coaching experience with Leonard Hamilton, Mike Montgomery etc...(and it is) this is relevant too.

It's valuable because assistant coaches typically are the leads on recruiting. So if Gates landed top 100 players regularly at FSU, that's relevant data. If Moser landed players that fit Majerus' system regularly, that's relevant data. I also find it valuable when a coach has learned under multiple head coaches. But trying to compare the overall team record as an assistant to the overall team record as a head coach is much less relevant.

I value a wide variety of information, and, a wide variety of results. It is far more likely for a team in a non Power 5/Big East league to have losses against teams with high KenPom based on schedule. As you know getting non-conference games is challenging, especially home and home.

I've never knocked Moser for not playing enough good teams. Mid-majors understandably have less opportunities. However, I am going to knock him for losing all 5 of his opportunities to beat a team in the top 134 of KenPom in the year we were discussing. I will also knock him for losing 10 times to teams ranked 127 or lower that year. Loyola can only play the schedule in front of them yes, but if its an easier schedule, the expectation should be to win more than he did that year.

Much of the board was dismissive of Moser as a candidate. Even Brian Wardle was BrewCity77's guy all of two months ago. And when being dismissive, the reasons seemed inconsistent. It started as, Wardle has not fared as well as Moser in the MVC in their overlapping time. It was strange to me why Wardle was generating more interest here. Sure he is an MUBB alum. But it was either lazy or bias or both. All depends. That led to other discussions. I point out what I know when and where it adds to the discussion or clears up discussion.

I think people were right to be dismissive prior to this season. This year he proved himself a legitimate candidate. Still not my personal pick but he earned his way into the conversation. I can't speak on Wardle because I have never wanted Wardle to be our coach. Would rather have kept Wojo.

I am not advocating for anyone. But I would like to see Dennis Gates get a chance. He would need to put together a gold varied staff, as would any candidate.  But obviously Moser is qualified, likable, and would possibly do well. I think it was Gato78 that came here and said some things he heard from someone. It just so happened I knew those things were different from what he heard, so I spoke up.

If you go back and look at my posting history, I have acknowledged and discussed all aspects of Moser and resume.

I like Gates too. He's my second pick. Moser is my fourth but think he would be a solid hire.

[shoothoops]

Who said Majerus coached SLU by himself? Surely you recognize that a head coach has more responsibility and gets more credit for a team's success than one of his assistants. You say you value apples to apples comparisons but you are comparing team records between a head coach and guy who was recruiting for a future HOF coach. Moser doesn't get the same level of credit for those years at SLU that Shaka gets for VCU. Sure its another experience on Moser's resume, but the fact that SLU had a better team record at that time is not good evidence that Moser would be a better head coach. Let's play this out.

Duke's Record when Wojo was an assistant:
99: KP 1 ACC 1
00: KP 5 ACC 1
01: KP 1 ACC 1
02: KP 1 ACC 2
03: KP 6 ACC 3
04: KP 1 ACC 1
05: KP 3 ACC 3
06: KP 2 ACC 1
07: KP 10 ACC 6
08: KP 6 ACC 2
09: KP 10 ACC 2
10: KP 1 ACC 1
11: KP 2 ACC 2
12: KP 19 ACC 2
13: KP 6 ACC 2
14: KP 8 ACC 2

Take any slice of this and it is a better record than Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Mike Brey, Leonard Hamilton, and every other ACC coach that Wojo assistant coached against. Is this somehow evidence that Wojo is a better coach than all of these coaches?

It's valuable because assistant coaches typically are the leads on recruiting. So if Gates landed top 100 players regularly at FSU, that's relevant data. If Moser landed players that fit Majerus' system regularly, that's relevant data. I also find it valuable when a coach has learned under multiple head coaches. But trying to compare the overall team record as an assistant to the overall team record as a head coach is much less relevant.

I've never knocked Moser for not playing enough good teams. Mid-majors understandably have less opportunities. However, I am going to knock him for losing all 5 of his opportunities to beat a team in the top 134 of KenPom in the year we were discussing. I will also knock him for losing 10 times to teams ranked 127 or lower that year. Loyola can only play the schedule in front of them yes, but if its an easier schedule, the expectation should be to win more than he did that year.

I think people were right to be dismissive prior to this season. This year he proved himself a legitimate candidate. Still not my personal pick but he earned his way into the conversation. I can't speak on Wardle because I have never wanted Wardle to be our coach. Would rather have kept Wojo.

I like Gates too. He's my second pick. Moser is my fourth but think he would be a solid hire.

"It's another experience on a resume" comes across as dismissive. It was never even mentioned until I brought it up. And when it has been it has been a dismissive response. I couldn't disagree more there.

Are you really trying to compare recruiting to SLU at the time to recruiting to Duke? Not exactly apples to apples.

Results matter more than recruiting rankings.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Are you really trying to compare recruiting to SLU at the time to recruiting to Duke? Not exactly apples to apples.

I'm doing exactly what you did. Comparing a team's KenPom ranking and league finish during an assistant coach's tenure to other head coaches who coached in the same conference at the same time as that assistant coach.

"It's another experience on a resume" comes across as dismissive. It was never even mentioned until I brought it up. And when it has been it has been a dismissive response. I couldn't disagree more there.

I didn't mean for it to be dismissive. And if it was, I feel the same way about all the candidates so it wasn't specific to Moser.

Results matter more than recruiting rankings.

I don't think I argued otherwise. But results aren't just based on recruiting. Coaching, development, adjustments, etc...all those contribute to success. Majerus had a bigger role in that than Moser did, as all head coaches have a bigger role in success than their assistants do.

[shoothoops]

I'm doing exactly what you did. Comparing a team's KenPom ranking and league finish during an assistant coach's tenure to other head coaches who coached in the same conference at the same time as that assistant coach.

I didn't mean for it to be dismissive. And if it was, I feel the same way about all the candidates so it wasn't specific to Moser.

I don't think I argued otherwise. But results aren't just based on recruiting. Coaching, development, adjustments, etc...all those contribute to success. Majerus had a bigger role in that than Moser did, as all head coaches have a bigger role in success than their assistants do.

No, results aren't just based on recruiting. But it was and is a relevant thing of value to mention that wasn't mentioned. No one said that is all he did. I perhaps have a bit more info on this than you, and I will leave it at that.