It is up to Buzz

[Lennys Tap]

The point is if we play our current guards there is a pretty high probability we lose all our remaining games. This conference is tough top to bottom.  There is not one game left that is a sure win if Buzz insists on the current rotation.

If he is willing to go with Mayo starting, extensive time to the freshman and STj we have a real chance of winning.

I think he has to eat some humble pie and admit he screwed up.

Not making the NCAA is a very expensive proposition for a school like Marquette.  Buzz has to get out of his bubble and realize what is at stake here.

When you decide to expand on a really stupid post it only gets more stupid.

[Texas Western]

When you decide to expand on a really stupid post it only gets more stupid.

Please explain to me how we win with the current rotation.

[GGGG]

Please explain to me how we win with the current rotation.

How about...we already have.

[Texas Western]

How about...we already have.

Current rotation did not beat Georgetown. we had Dawson and lots of minutes to STj. We barely beat Seton Hall at home. And yes we did beat DePaul , and my point is that we are going to have a hard time beating them on the road.

[CTWarrior]

An off the wall tangent to this discussion.

Is it possible that in years past our best players were also the hardest working in practice, etc, and that this year that is not the case?  Guys like Crowder, Butler, Hayward, the 3 Amigos, DJO, etc. seemed like they were pathological hard workers in addition to being great players.  I am guessing that Buzz said Derrick deserved to start over Cadougan last year because he was the harder worker, but Buzz didn't actually do it because he couldn't ignore the difference in the quality of their games and he had remaining years to reward Derrick with, anyway.

I've coached many teams in my day (though certainly not at anything near this level), and it is a pain in the neck when your hardest workers are your worst players, which in actuality is a lot of the time.  (Poor players seemingly never want to give you a non-basketball reason not to play them)  Balancing the desire to win with rewarding those who have earned time through dedicated work is a tough line to follow.  Guys who work hard and are not rewarded (with PT) may cease to work hard, and guys who don't work hard but are rewarded may continue to not work hard.  Maybe Buzz does what he does with player rotation in hopes of motivating young men to be the best that they can be.

All admitted guesswork on my part, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who is thinking about today, tomorrow, next year and 10 years from now.  I believe he has a carefully considered and very good reason for everything he does.

I really do not enjoy watching the lifeless style of basketball we play with Derrick at the helm, but I honestly think that Buzz thinks that in the long run, what he is doing is what is best for Marquette basketball, and "loyalty" is not high on his list of reasons.

[Archies Bat]

An off the wall tangent to this discussion.

Is it possible that in years past our best players were also the hardest working in practice, etc, and that this year that is not the case?  Guys like Crowder, Butler, Hayward, the 3 Amigos, DJO, etc. seemed like they were pathological hard workers in addition to being great players.  I am guessing that Buzz said Derrick deserved to start over Cadougan last year because he was the harder worker, but Buzz didn't actually do it because he couldn't ignore the difference in the quality of their games and he had remaining years to reward Derrick with, anyway.

I've coached many teams in my day (though certainly not at anything near this level), and it is a pain in the neck when your hardest workers are your worst players, which in actuality is a lot of the time.  (Poor players seemingly never want to give you a non-basketball reason not to play them)  Balancing the desire to win with rewarding those who have earned time through dedicated work is a tough line to follow.  Guys who work hard and are not rewarded (with PT) may cease to work hard, and guys who don't work hard but are rewarded may continue to not work hard.  Maybe Buzz does what he does with player rotation in hopes of motivating young men to be the best that they can be.

All admitted guesswork on my part, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who is thinking about today, tomorrow, next year and 10 years from now.  I believe he has a carefully considered and very good reason for everything he does.

I really do not enjoy watching the lifeless style of basketball we play with Derrick at the helm, but I honestly think that Buzz thinks that in the long run, what he is doing is what is best for Marquette basketball, and "loyalty" is not high on his list of reasons.

I've suspected the same, but it is guesswork also.  In my career experience, I've found that when I reward more talented, less hard working employees, the hard working employees are demotivated more than the less hard working employees are motivated by the reward.  Sometime that choice has to be made, but there are impacts.

[tower912]

I've long been in the dawson camp in the dwil/dawson debate. I obviously don't think Buzz is an idiot. He's forgotten more basketball than I'll ever know. I get it.

But in my opinion, Buzz likes to have/be in control of everything that he can. He strikes me as someone who is extremely averse to risk.  This makes him neither stupid nor stubborn. But let's face it, we are a mediocre team. Mediocre teams should play risky. Sports econ studies show bad teams should take more risks.

In a word, I want Buzz to take more risks (eg play Dawson more)

All coaches are 'averse to risk' to a degree.   Buzz did quit a D1 job, however, without knowing if he would ever land one again.   That was a bit of a risk.        But, risks Buzz has taken:   Jeronne, when everyone warned about his dad.   Vander, when everybody talked about his grades and his decommit.   Jae, when it was learned that his first JUCO wasn't accredited and the only game he ever saw him play in person, he sucked.    Butler, the roommate of Fulce.  Gardner, the 2 star 350 pounder.   But we could go on and on with the stories of the players he has recruited.   It does seem that the longer the shot, the better the player turns out.
Coaching: His clear pattern is that, unless there are extenuating circumstances and overwhelming need, that minutes have to be earned and that freshmen, in particular, have to learn to do it his way.   That is a risk in and of itself, because it can lead to players leaving because they did not get instant minutes.  In short, every decision has risk and consequences.     

[GGGG]

I've suspected the same, but it is guesswork also.  In my career experience, I've found that when I reward more talented, less hard working employees, the hard working employees are demotivated more than the less hard working employees are motivated by the reward.  Sometime that choice has to be made, but there are impacts.

I agree, but to add to this, you set bad examples for the less experienced employees.

IOW, playing players who don't work as hard or don't take the time to understand the scouting reports versus those who are more "talented," hurts those who are more "talented" in the long run.   JJJ...Deonte...Dawson...all need to understand that while you may beat Jake, Juan and Derrick in games of one on one, that doesn't automatically make you more valuable to the basketball team.

[willie warrior]

All coaches are 'averse to risk' to a degree.   Buzz did quit a D1 job, however, without knowing if he would ever land one again.   That was a bit of a risk.        But, risks Buzz has taken:   Jeronne, when everyone warned about his dad.   Vander, when everybody talked about his grades and his decommit.   Jae, when it was learned that his first JUCO wasn't accredited and the only game he ever saw him play in person, he sucked.    Butler, the roommate of Fulce.  Gardner, the 2 star 350 pounder.   But we could go on and on with the stories of the players he has recruited.   It does seem that the longer the shot, the better the player turns out.
Coaching: His clear pattern is that, unless there are extenuating circumstances and overwhelming need, that minutes have to be earned and that freshmen, in particular, have to learn to do it his way.   That is a risk in and of itself, because it can lead to players leaving because they did not get instant minutes.  In short, every decision has risk and consequences.     

So if Buzz is such a risk taker, why doesn't he try a different offense, By the way, you do have some flaws in your reasoning about Buzz's risks: Gardner was never 350 pounds and won some accolades in Va. in HS; Butler was not a risk, he was a top 20 JUCO; Jae Crowder was a JUCO All American and player of the year--not much of a risk. The longer the shot the better the player has worked out?: What about Mbao; McMorrow; Durley; Roseboro--how did they work out. Two big risks Buzz did take were starting Erik Williams and Reggie Smith for 3 minutes a half, and they both were pissed and moved on--how did that work out? Yes Buzz has taken some risks, but many have not worked out. And yes, Freshman have to learn to do it his way--or it is the Highway. Just like Homer and Mac have had to learn to do it his way--and according to many on this board, Larry Williams also.
Buzz is an OK Coach--better recruiter than X and O's; but much of what he has done this year is very open to criticism and speculation. Nothing deserving of the Hosannas he gets though. The guy has good practice facilities, good weight room, good dorm, about 8th highest budget in the country(Only pure blue bloods ahead of him there), an NBA facility to play in, a jet to recruit, and results this year leave much to be desired. OK--based on his record in the past, give him a pass this year, but come next year, there should be much better results.

[MU82]

All coaches are 'averse to risk' to a degree.   Buzz did quit a D1 job, however, without knowing if he would ever land one again.   That was a bit of a risk.        But, risks Buzz has taken:   Jeronne, when everyone warned about his dad.   Vander, when everybody talked about his grades and his decommit.   Jae, when it was learned that his first JUCO wasn't accredited and the only game he ever saw him play in person, he sucked.    Butler, the roommate of Fulce.  Gardner, the 2 star 350 pounder.   But we could go on and on with the stories of the players he has recruited.   It does seem that the longer the shot, the better the player turns out.
Coaching: His clear pattern is that, unless there are extenuating circumstances and overwhelming need, that minutes have to be earned and that freshmen, in particular, have to learn to do it his way.   That is a risk in and of itself, because it can lead to players leaving because they did not get instant minutes.  In short, every decision has risk and consequences.     

This is an excellent synopsis of the situation. Nicely done.

[Lennys Tap]

An off the wall tangent to this discussion.

Is it possible that in years past our best players were also the hardest working in practice, etc, and that this year that is not the case?  Guys like Crowder, Butler, Hayward, the 3 Amigos, DJO, etc. seemed like they were pathological hard workers in addition to being great players.  I am guessing that Buzz said Derrick deserved to start over Cadougan last year because he was the harder worker, but Buzz didn't actually do it because he couldn't ignore the difference in the quality of their games and he had remaining years to reward Derrick with, anyway.

I've coached many teams in my day (though certainly not at anything near this level), and it is a pain in the neck when your hardest workers are your worst players, which in actuality is a lot of the time.  (Poor players seemingly never want to give you a non-basketball reason not to play them)  Balancing the desire to win with rewarding those who have earned time through dedicated work is a tough line to follow.  Guys who work hard and are not rewarded (with PT) may cease to work hard, and guys who don't work hard but are rewarded may continue to not work hard.  Maybe Buzz does what he does with player rotation in hopes of motivating young men to be the best that they can be.

All admitted guesswork on my part, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who is thinking about today, tomorrow, next year and 10 years from now.  I believe he has a carefully considered and very good reason for everything he does.

I really do not enjoy watching the lifeless style of basketball we play with Derrick at the helm, but I honestly think that Buzz thinks that in the long run, what he is doing is what is best for Marquette basketball, and "loyalty" is not high on his list of reasons.

Your comments are dead on. Buzz is a program builder, and he always returns to our culture and being "who we are" to explain the success that we've had. Is it sometimes frustrating to watch talented players like Todd Mayo sit because they're fighting that culture rather than buying in? You bet. But here's the thing - that culture is more important than one player or winning one game. If he (or any other player) doesn't get it, he'll sit and/or leave, but if/when the light goes on (here's hoping, Todd) the benefits go beyond basketball. That legacy is important to Buzz but not to a large portion of our fan base. Guys like Ners want time given to guys like Mayo simply because of their talent. Expecting them to earn it by being a good teammate, student, person, etc., is the equivalent of "riding" Todd. Sorry, but that's how Buzz rolls. He feels his responsibility to these guys and their families goes beyond basketball. A lot of people here claim to love that about Buzz (it's easy when you're winning Big East titles and going deep in the tournament) but abandon ship (and the principles Buzz's teams have been based on) at the first sign of trouble. That doesn't surprise me, but it does disappoint me a little.

[NersEllenson]

I agree, but to add to this, you set bad examples for the less experienced employees.

IOW, playing players who don't work as hard or don't take the time to understand the scouting reports versus those who are more "talented," hurts those who are more "talented" in the long run.   JJJ...Deonte...Dawson...all need to understand that while you may beat Jake, Juan and Derrick in games of one on one, that doesn't automatically make you more valuable to the basketball team.

Really?  We are playing high major basketball here.  This isn't grade school. 

[Lennys Tap]

Really?  We are playing high major basketball here.  This isn't grade school. 

Actually, in grade school it's all pretty much whose wins one on one. Gets more complicated (defensive rotations, playing within the offense, etc) at higher levels.

[NersEllenson]

Your comments are dead on. Buzz is a program builder, and he always returns to our culture and being "who we are" to explain the success that we've had. Is it sometimes frustrating to watch talented players like Todd Mayo sit because they're fighting that culture rather than buying in? You bet. But here's the thing - that culture is more important than one player or winning one game. If he (or any other player) doesn't get it, he'll sit and/or leave, but if/when the light goes on (here's hoping, Todd) the benefits go beyond basketball. That legacy is important to Buzz but not to a large portion of our fan base. Guys like Ners want time given to guys like Mayo simply because of their talent. Expecting them to earn it by being a good teammate, student, person, etc., is the equivalent of "riding" Todd. Sorry, but that's how Buzz rolls. He feels his responsibility to these guys and their families goes beyond basketball. A lot of people here claim to love that about Buzz (it's easy when you're winning Big East titles and going deep in the tournament) but abandon ship (and the principles Buzz's teams have been based on) at the first sign of trouble. That doesn't surprise me, but it does disappoint me a little.

I agree with the vast majority of your post.  I will say that culture, without victory, eventually doesn't matter - but Buzz has proven of course that his culture, recruiting, coaching have gotten results historically better than we've gotten since Al.

Having said that, it doesn't mean he's infallible, and just like any coach, can make poor coaching decisions.  I won't argue with you on Todd - even though I'd love him to get more PT from Jake, and I don't even hate on Jake a whole lot - as he at least is a very good floor spacer and has shown he can hit clutch shots, and greatly contribute to victory in some games.  

But, with regard to Dawson - Buzz has said he's a hard worker, a great kid - therefore, if we are making the culture argument - it wouldn't seem Dawson isn't passing the culture test.  And, the on court test - he's shown he has some talent, and can help the team win games.  But, it is unfair to expect a kid to be perfect every time he goes out on the floor - he needs to be given some slack to play through a few bumps.  Let the kid play 20-30 per game from here on out and let's see what he's got...for this year, and for next moving forward..

[Sunbelt15]

I agree, but to add to this, you set bad examples for the less experienced employees.

IOW, playing players who don't work as hard or don't take the time to understand the scouting reports versus those who are more "talented," hurts those who are more "talented" in the long run.   JJJ...Deonte...Dawson...all need to understand that while you may beat Jake, Juan and Derrick in games of one on one, that doesn't automatically make you more valuable to the basketball team.

Listen when I tell you, this guy is an assistant or Buzz himself. His statements sounds too close to the action.

[Eldon]

I agree with the vast majority of your post.  I will say that culture, without victory, eventually doesn't matter - but Buzz has proven of course that his culture, recruiting, coaching have gotten results historically better than we've gotten since Al.

Having said that, it doesn't mean he's infallible, and just like any coach, can make poor coaching decisions.  I won't argue with you on Todd - even though I'd love him to get more PT from Jake, and I don't even hate on Jake a whole lot - as he at least is a very good floor spacer and has shown he can hit clutch shots, and greatly contribute to victory in some games.  

But, with regard to Dawson - Buzz has said he's a hard worker, a great kid - therefore, if we are making the culture argument - it wouldn't seem Dawson isn't passing the culture test.  And, the on court test - he's shown he has some talent, and can help the team win games.  But, it is unfair to expect a kid to be perfect every time he goes out on the floor - he needs to be given some slack to play through a few bumps.  Let the kid play 20-30 per game from here on out and let's see what he's got...for this year, and for next moving forward..

My sentiments exactly.  There is a reason I am sweating Dawson getting more minutes and not Todd, Burton, JJJ, etc. (though I do wish Todd played more)

[madtownwarrior]

I assuming Lenny is there handing out the juice boxes and orange slices after practice. 

Besides - how would they know who won if they not keep score too?

what a joke statement - it's not who the better player is, wow - I assume Boeheim and Calapari will start changing they philosophy once they read Lenny's brilliance...

Really?  We are playing high major basketball here.  This isn't grade school. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz is playing with fire by sticking with this absurd backcourt rotation.  If he continues to stick with it, we are highly likely to lose all the remaining games. The Big East is tough top to bottom,Even DePaul is going to be tough to beat, especially on the road. 

If Buzz is willing to run with all the freshman, and give more steady minutes to Todd and STj, we can still get on a run.

At this point the season is up to Buzz, The kids are trying their hardest and haven't quit yet. It is time Buzz shows a little respect to the program and the University instead of too his vanity.

We will win plenty of games even with this rotation.  In my view, he isn't getting consistency from any of them.  Mayo took a donut at Butler until OT.  Other games he has been out to lunch while others he has been consistent.  Jake has hit some big 3's in some games and others non existent.  Derrick, some games solid, others not.  Lack of consistency all around.  Jamil...for a senior...really inconsistent.  DG, been really big in a number of games, but he has also either lapsed in one part of his game or disappeared for a few.  

You know me, Buzz's biggest defender, I think he's looking for a group that does it consistently and they seldom do in all facets of the game.  Now, where people have some legitimate gripes is playing for now vs playing for the future.  Are some of the kids being played actually giving you a better chance to win now?  Up for debate.

[Lennys Tap]

I assuming Lenny is there handing out the juice boxes and orange slices after practice. 

Besides - how would they know who won if they not keep score too?

what a joke statement - it's not who the better player is, wow - I assume Boeheim and Calapari will start changing they philosophy once they read Lenny's brilliance...

Al started Bill Neary (who was way, way, worse than Derrick or Jake) over Bernard Toone (who was way, way better than John or Todd). Guess he was doling out the juice boxes before there were juices boxes.

Your statement couldn't be more simplistic or ignorant.

[mu-rara]

Are you satisfied with our results thus far?  All my contention all along has been, was to get Dawson 20 minutes a game and get an idea for what he could do.  Perhaps if he'd gotten more time against the cupcakes, he'd be in a better position to contribute at this point - since Buzz still apparently doesn't seem to think he's worthy.

I don't see Derrick showing much improvement, over where we were at Thanksgiving time, nor has the team shown much improvement.  For the life of me, I cannot understand why you and about the 5 other Pro-Derrick guys - feel things could get worse if Buzz made the move..or that in absolute certainty you still believe Derrick gives this team the best chance to win.  

I am not a pro Derrick guy.  I see the dynamic dimension that Dawson adds.  I trust Buzz to know how to channel it and when to.  Would you have benched Lockett last year?  

I certainly hope that Dawson earns the PT by the end of the year, because Derrick seems to be a good backup, but Dawson ain't there yet.

Until you can give us a report live from practice you can't demand that Dawson plays.  

[GGGG]

Really?  We are playing high major basketball here.  This isn't grade school.  

And you claim that I didn't pass Basketball 101?  I think you just advocated having a series of one-on-ones to determine Marquette's starting line up.  Welcome to CYO League.

Let the kid play 20-30 per game from here on out and let's see what he's got...for this year, and for next moving forward..

Derrick Wilson is the likely starter next year as well.  So we get to relive this entire debate again.

YAY!!!

[Lennys Tap]

We will win plenty of games even with this rotation.  In my view, he isn't getting consistency from any of them.  Mayo took a donut at Butler until OT.  Other games he has been out to lunch while others he has been consistent.  Jake has hit some big 3's in some games and others non existent.  Derrick, some games solid, others not.  Lack of consistency all around.  Jamil...for a senior...really inconsistent.  DG, been really big in a number of games, but he has also either lapsed in one part of his game or disappeared for a few.  

You know me, Buzz's biggest defender, I think he's looking for a group that does it consistently and they seldom do in all facets of the game.  Now, where people have some legitimate gripes is playing for now vs playing for the future.  Are some of the kids being played actually giving you a better chance to win now?  Up for debate.

My compliments on this and several other posts on what has been a very disappointing season. I may not always agree with your conclusions but  you've been fair and objective throughout.

[GGGG]

Listen when I tell you, this guy is an assistant or Buzz himself. His statements sounds too close to the action.

Really?

I guess you missed the part where I said Dawson should have played more on Saturday.

[leever]

 

You know me, Buzz's biggest defender, I think he's looking for a group that does it consistently and they seldom do in all facets of the game.  Now, where people have some legitimate gripes is playing for now vs playing for the future.  Are some of the kids being played actually giving you a better chance to win now?  Up for debate.

Made me laugh.  Thanks!  Teal?