Some persective from the Majerus/Dukiet years

[HouWarrior]

you guys make me feel spoiled.  I was there from 1968 to 1975 , the prime of the McGuire years . Was not there for the 77 championship, but saw alot of great teams and players and of course the coaching antics of McGuire.

Thats right Tommy Boy...they're called doctors (oops--like you Dr Bob!)

I also  date to McGuire's time. We were spoiled like those under 50, couldnt imagine.

It is best looked at as a ten year run, from '68-'77

During that incredible ten year period:

-- MU posted the 3rd best 10 year reg season run EVER !(only UCLA and UK had better 10 year reg. season windows, and Duke has since joined this club);
and

-- MU was 20-9 (.690) in the NCAAs, with 2 final 4s,  One  NCAA champ, and one NIT Champ(8 0f the 10 years we were Sweet 16, or better).

-- MU, legitimately, was one of the great, top programs in the USA.

Excepting 2003, In the 32 other years since 1977:

--  MU is 6-15 (.286)in the NCAAs,and

--with the one final four, in 2003, improving MU to 10-16(.385) in the NCAAs, in the 33 year post Mcguire era( only 2 of the 33 years were Sweet 16, or better).

--MU , during the 33 years since MCGuire, has ranged from fair to very good, as programs go.

Because its tourney time, here is the all time MU NCAA breakdown:

SEASON   W-L   RESULTS
2010   0-1   Lost to Washington in first round, 80-78

2009
1-1   Defeated Utah State in first round, 58-57
Lost to Missouri in second round, 83-79

2008
1-1   Defeated Kentucky in first round, 74-66
Lost to Stanford in second round, 82-81

2007
0-1   Lost to Michigan State in first round, 61-49

2006
0-1   Lost to Alabama in first round, 90-85

2003
4-1   Defeated Holy Cross in first round, 72-68
Defeated Missouri in second round, 101-92
Defeated Pittsburgh in regional semifinal, 77-74
Defeated Kentucky in regional final, 83-69
Lost to Kansas in National Semifinal, 94-61

2002
0-1   Lost to Tulsa in first round, 71-69

1997
0-1   Lost to Providence in first round, 81-59

1996
1-1   Defeated Monmouth in first round, 68-44
Lost to Arkansas in second round, 65-56

1994
2-1   Defeated Louisiana-Lafayette in first round, 81-59
Defeated Kentucky in second round, 75-63
Lost to Duke in regional semifinal, 59-49

1993
0-1   Lost to Oklahoma State in first round, 74-62

1983
0-1   Lost to Tennessee in first round, 57-56

1982
1-1   Defeated Evansville in first round, 67-62
Lost to Missouri in second round, 73-69

1980
0-1   Lost to Villanova in first round, 77-59

1979
1-1   Defeated Pacific in second round, 73-48
Lost to DePaul in regional semifinal, 62-56

1978
0-1   Lost to Miami (OH) in second round, 84-81

1977
5-0   Defeated Cincinnati in second round, 66-51
Defeated Kansas State in regional semifinal, 67-66
Defeated Wake Forest in regional final, 82-68
Defeated Charlotte in National Semifinal, 51-49
Defeated North Carolina in National Championship, 67-59

1976
2-1   Defeated Western Kentucky in second round, 79-60
Defeated Western Michigan in regional semifinal, 62-57
Lost to Indiana in regional final, 65-56

1975
0-1   Lost to Kentucky in second round, 76-54

1974
4-1   Defeated Ohio in second round, 85-59
Defeated Vanderbilt in regional semifinal, 69-61
Defeated Michigan in regional final, 72-70
Defeated Kansas in National Semifinal, 64-51
Lost to North Carolina State in National Championship, 76-64

1973
2-1   Defeated Miami (OH) in second round, 77-62
Lost to Indiana in regional semifinal, 75-69
Defeated Austin Peay in third place game, 88-73

1972
1-2   Defeated Ohio in second round, 73-49
Lost to Kentucky in regional semifinal, 85-69
Lost to Minnesota in third place game, 77-72

1971
2-1   Defeated Miami (OH) in second round, 62-47
Lost to Ohio State in regional semifinal, 60-59
Defeated Kentucky in third place game, 91-74

1969
2-1   Defeated Murray State in second round, 82-62
Defeated Kentucky in regional semifinal, 81-74
Lost to Purdue in regional final, 75-73

1968
2-1   Defeated Bowling Green in second round, 72-71
Lost to Kentucky in regional semifinal, 107-89
Defeated East Tennessee State in third place game, 69-57

1961
0-1   Lost to Houston in second round, 77-61

1959
1-2   Defeated Bowling Green in second round, 89-71
Lost to Michigan State in regional semifinal, 74-69
Lost to Kentucky in third place game, 98-69

1955
2-1   Defeated Miami (OH) in first round, 90-79
Defeated Kentucky in second round, 79-71
Lost to Iowa in regional semifinal, 86-81

[willie warrior]

Thanks for the historical recap Houwarrior. Some of those were some great years.

2003 comes back as bittersweet. A great run to the Final 4 beating some highly ranked teams. Novak, a freshman hitting some big time threes in Minneapolis against Ky., Diener also, and DWade leading the team. The bitter part was the beatdown by Kansas---what a letdown after that run!

[Da 'Lanche]

I was at MU from 84-88.....in retrospect, it is amazing how close to the 77 championship year that era was and, yet, how far the program fell.    7 years removed from the title and the program had begun a decent into a mid-major at best level in terms of talent and prestige.   Even the rapid decline from my freshman to senior year was unbelievable.  I remember painfully watching Roman Mueller in the Rec Center trying to actually catch a basketball under the hoop.    I will say this...the dudes knew how to party back then, though.

[GGGG]

I was there from 1986-90.  Dukiet's three years, and O'Neill's first.  It had gotten so bad that we actually joined the MCC (now the Horizon League) with the likes of Butler, Detroit and Loyola - DePaul would have never taken this step.  I remember sitting at my student job, listening to us lose to Evansville in the first round of our first conference tournament game.  It was so pitiful.

People here are right...it was 12 years after the national championship and we had fallen very far, very fast.  It is damn near a miracle that 15 years later we were in a Final Four and soon afterward the Big East.

[Norm]

Marquette's downfall from 1978-1990--outside of errors of its own making--was largely due to the changing landscape in college basketball and the rise of ESPN. Many of the Midwestern teams that were not already part of the Big Ten-- like Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul and Dayton, and to a lesser extent Detroit and Loyola--suffered in the search for a good conference to align with. Marquette and the others also saw a downturn in national exposure due to rise of the Big East (St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc..), the stratospheric explosion of Duke under Coach K (NC State has suffered with this as well), Lute Olson's reign in Arizona.

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

[mikem91288]

Enjoyed this thread. Thanks. I'm a senior now and have had four years of NCAA tournament games. Will be in Cleveland on Friday.

[GGGG]

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

Part of the problem was the Metro Conference refused to expand beyond 8 members.  It would have been a perfect landing place for MU and Depaul.  (It consisted of the likes of Louisville, Memphis, Cincinnatti, Florida State, etc.)  And that is one of the reasons it no longer exists.  (Well, technically it merged with the Great Midwest to form Conference USA.)

[Da 'Lanche]

Marquette's downfall from 1978-1990--outside of errors of its own making--was largely due to the changing landscape in college basketball and the rise of ESPN. Many of the Midwestern teams that were not already part of the Big Ten-- like Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul and Dayton, and to a lesser extent Detroit and Loyola--suffered in the search for a good conference to align with. Marquette and the others also saw a downturn in national exposure due to rise of the Big East (St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc..), the stratospheric explosion of Duke under Coach K (NC State has suffered with this as well), Lute Olson's reign in Arizona.

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

Actually....I think it correlates more to the decision to end "Block Party."

Seriously, great post.

[AZWarrior]

Marquette's downfall from 1978-1990--outside of errors of its own making--was largely due to the changing landscape in college basketball and the rise of ESPN. Many of the Midwestern teams that were not already part of the Big Ten-- like Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul and Dayton, and to a lesser extent Detroit and Loyola--suffered in the search for a good conference to align with. Marquette and the others also saw a downturn in national exposure due to rise of the Big East (St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc..), the stratospheric explosion of Duke under Coach K (NC State has suffered with this as well), Lute Olson's reign in Arizona.

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

I agree that Cords should be given a lot of credit.  Side note - poor Bill was assigned the task of writing me a "pep talk" letter back when I suggested, in a letter of my own to Father "Buck" Raynor that "Jumping Jesuits" would be a good team name if the university insisted on changing it.     Said essentially that my suggestion was "shameful" but would be forwarded and given consideration.   

[MUMac]

Marquette's downfall from 1978-1990--outside of errors of its own making--was largely due to the changing landscape in college basketball and the rise of ESPN. Many of the Midwestern teams that were not already part of the Big Ten-- like Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul and Dayton, and to a lesser extent Detroit and Loyola--suffered in the search for a good conference to align with. Marquette and the others also saw a downturn in national exposure due to rise of the Big East (St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc..), the stratospheric explosion of Duke under Coach K (NC State has suffered with this as well), Lute Olson's reign in Arizona.

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

The problems of MU's making was the reluctance to admit independents were becoming a dinosaur in the eyes of the NCAA.  The BE had wanted MU at the beginning.   We declined.  Being an independent back then was a big deal.  You could schedule whom you wanted and you did not have to win a conference, or championship, to get in.  Just be the best of the independents (or top group as the NCAA expanded).

MU waited a few years too late to join a conference.  Had we joined the BE at the beginning, our history might have been different.  It's IU might not have been a step up in the eyes of a coach.

[Norm]

The problems of MU's making was the reluctance to admit independents were becoming a dinosaur in the eyes of the NCAA.  The BE had wanted MU at the beginning.   We declined.  Being an independent back then was a big deal.  You could schedule whom you wanted and you did not have to win a conference, or championship, to get in.  Just be the best of the independents (or top group as the NCAA expanded).

MU waited a few years too late to join a conference.  Had we joined the BE at the beginning, our history might have been different.  It's IU might not have been a step up in the eyes of a coach.

Wow, I never knew the Big East wanted Marquette as an original member in 1979. I thought only Rutgers and Holy Cross initially turned them down. I also think the Big East regrets turning down Penn State's application to join the conference in the early '80's (especially for its football conference).

[MUMac]

Wow, I never knew the Big East wanted Marquette as an original member in 1979. I thought only Rutgers and Holy Cross initially turned them down. I also think the Big East regrets turning down Penn State's application to join the conference in the early '80's (especially for its football conference).

When they were first forming, they approached MU.  MU was the big independent and thought that joining a conference would be a big mistake.  At that time, MU had a rivalry with St. Johns and had a large reputation on the East Coast.

[warriorfred]

I heard Al was in favor of joining the Big East after he left, and lobbied for it, but the Big East was lukewarm to the idea?

[El Duderino]

Marquette's downfall from 1978-1990--outside of errors of its own making--was largely due to the changing landscape in college basketball and the rise of ESPN. Many of the Midwestern teams that were not already part of the Big Ten-- like Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul and Dayton, and to a lesser extent Detroit and Loyola--suffered in the search for a good conference to align with. Marquette and the others also saw a downturn in national exposure due to rise of the Big East (St. John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, etc..), the stratospheric explosion of Duke under Coach K (NC State has suffered with this as well), Lute Olson's reign in Arizona.

I would actually say that Bill Cords is probably under-appreciated in getting Marquette back on the map, hiring guys like O'Neill and Crean (and even Deane won 100 games quicker than any other Marquette coach at the time), and navigating MU though the MCC, Great Midwest, Conference USA and eventually the Big East.

I think Cords and his hiring of O'Neill may have saved Marquette basketball from potential abyss. Kevin at least put MU basketball back on the map as best as could be done considering the situation he took over.

If Cords had made a mistake instead of hiring O'Neill when he did, there is a pretty good chance that the program wouldn't be in the good situation that it currently finds itself in.

[WarriorHal]

I graduated in '77 and don't recall ever hearing or reading anything about the BE offering Marquette membership. Of course, that was a long time ago--maybe I've forgotten. If that's true and we turned them down, why didn't they offer DePaul? Or Notre Dame? Or other high level Midwestern independents?

It's impossible to overstate how much Al's retirement from coaching hurt Marquette. The instant success of the BE was certainly a factor. But Hank simply couldn't recruit the way Al could. As soon as Al left, Ray Meyer and DePaul got virtually all of the top Chicago talent--Doc Rivers the only exception--and became a national powerhouse.

1977–1978   DePaul   27–3         
1978–1979   DePaul   26–6
1979–1980   DePaul   26–2         
1980–1981   DePaul   27–2         
1981–1982   DePaul   26–2         
1982–1983   DePaul   21–12         
1983–1984   DePaul   27–3         

[dgies9156]

Ok, I am late to the party on this one, but I have been following Marquette since 1966 (when I was 12) and come from a deeply Marquette family. I've learned that your perspective on the basketball program is a function of when you first chanted "We Are Marquette."

The folks who are 50 or older have this strong notion that we're something special. We remember Al and we remember 1974 and 1977, conveniently wiping out everything from that 1969 missed free throw to that 1971 "out of bounds" call. Both cost us deep runs at the national title (the former preventing our first Final Four). We nonetheless equate Marquette with North Carolina, UCLA, Duke et al and wonder "why not?"

We talk about what caused the Dukiet years and the Deane Malaise. My view is it started in March 1978, when Marquette lost a very poorly played and badly coached game to Miami of Ohio. We were defending national champions and we lost to Miami of Ohio??? Give me a break. Father Raynor and Quentin Quade should have known something was wrong right then and there.

Hank was a wonderful guy and his family is a testament to the kind of person he was. But he had no business being a Division 1 head coach. We stayed with Hank way too long and failed to understand how the college landscape had changed. Quite simply, Hank could not consistently recruit. He was Al's Phil Bengston (the guy who replaced Vince Lombardi up to the north, for you young folks). In 1978, we could have had anybody -- and I mean anybody -- we wanted for our head coaching position. But we made the mistake we didn't make in 1964 and we paid for it for a decade.

There is a lot of postings on this board about Buzz leaving. I've griped a little, but I think it is too early. I hope he stays and I hope we made the right decision with him. But there is no reason to think yet, as there was in 1978, that it is time to cut the cord.

[dgies9156]

One other thought -- one reason for our success was that Al didn't discriminate. He recruited African American basketball players at a time when comparatively few schools did. Marquette was an open and I assume welcoming campus for African America players and Al treated them the same as he did anyone else. It's no secret that the powerhouse schools of the 1960s and 1970s, UCLA, Marquette, North Carolina, Texas- El Paso, Kansas, etc., actively recruited African America ballplayers and made them feel at home on campus.

One of the great contrasts in MU history happened in 1972 in a little remembered game at the Arena. Marquette was playing the University of Tennessee, which was part of the almost all-white Southeastern Conference (at the time). Tennessee was mostly if not all white and came into the Arena and got their heads handed to them. The game ended 56-30 and the only reason it wasn't 96-30 was that there was no shot clock or three-pointers and Marquette played a very deliberate style of offense. A year later, MU went to Knoxville and Tennessee, with a more integrated team, took us to overtime before we won.

By 1979, with Al gone and more schools seeing what Marquette, UCLA and other were able to do, began aggressively recruiting young men that heretofore had to choose between us, UCLA and maybe North Carolina. The depth of the pool was the same, but the talent became more disbursed.