I assume this means the Coaches picked us 10th?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Not sure how to read this, but we're Tier 4 out of 5 tiers.  It says the tiers were selected based on the coaches poll.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/5496976/big-east-announces-repeat-opponents

[TallTitan34]

It seems like every year the coaches put us towards the bottom of the league and then we prove them wrong.  You'd think eventually we'd get respect considering we've had double digit wins every year in Big East play.

Oh well though, it actually helps us that they put us in that low of a tier.

So to the coaches I say f*ck off and thank you!

[bilsu]

The vote was in May. Since that vote we have had the opportunity to see Otule, Cadougan and Fulce in action. They all look healthy and able to contribute, probably more than the opposing coaches are giving them credit for.

[Benny B]

Agreed with Titan... of all the polls out there, this is the one where you want to be ranked low, but not at the bottom.


If being ranked 10th - 12th means we don't have to home & home against Pitt, Nova, Cuse, GTown, Huggietown, etc., then I say yes, MU is the 10th - 12th team in the BE.

[NersEllenson]

Not sure how to read this, but we're Tier 4 out of 5 tiers.  It says the tiers were selected based on the coaches poll.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/5496976/big-east-announces-repeat-opponents

No worries, we'll soon have Marquette84 projecting a Top 3 finish - Personally, I'm inclined to predict another 5th/4th place finish.  Question will be:  How disappointed will we be as MU fans if we did actually finish 10th in the Big East this upcoming season?

[Lennys Tap]

No worries, we'll soon have Marquette84 projecting a Top 3 finish - Personally, I'm inclined to predict another 5th/4th place finish.  Question will be:  How disappointed will we be as MU fans if we did actually finish 10th in the Big East this upcoming season?

IIRC, in 84's 9-9 or better prediction last year he also said that this year's team would be fortunate to match the 09-10 team. Don't know if anything has happened to change his mind. I'm as anxious as the next guy to find out.

[Marquette84]

No worries, we'll soon have Marquette84 projecting a Top 3 finish - Personally, I'm inclined to predict another 5th/4th place finish.  Question will be:  How disappointed will we be as MU fans if we did actually finish 10th in the Big East this upcoming season?

To be fair, my own prediction was that we'd finish in the top half.  

This team absolutely should not finish below 8th place, and with a relatively easy draw on the mirror games, one could make the case that we should be competitive for 5th or 6th.   There is far too much talent to expect that we'll be battling with DePaul, Rutgers, USF and St. Johns locked in a battle for 12th through 16th.  

You're confusing the argument I had with Lenny and others, in which I questioned why someone who claimed that Buzz upgraded recruiting and coaching over Crean couldn't bring himself to predict a finish better than Crean's 4th place finish of 2006.

I find it funny how you've done nothing but argue how much better our talent is than what Crean brought in, and what a huge upgrade in coaching Buzz represents, yet are now predicting that Buzz will [drum roll, please] . . . MATCH Tom Crean's average Big East coaching performance.

Well, if you honestly feel that Buzz is such a huge upgrade, why are you inclined to predict the same 5th/4th place finish that Crean gave us in his 3 Big East seasons?

[muwarrior69]

Please.... no Crean vs. Buzz pi$$ing thread. We have been under rated every year we have been in the league. It's where we finish that counts.

[NavinRJohnson]

Well, if you honestly feel that Buzz is such a huge upgrade, why are you inclined to predict the same 5th/4th place finish that Crean gave us in his 3 Big East seasons?

Really? You think its weak that someone won't predict a finish in one particular season that is better than some other guy's average? Fine, since you seem to be suggesting that specific circumstances of a given season aren't relevant, I predict Indiana will not finish better this season than the average Big Ten finish of Bob Knight, Mike Davis, or Kelvin Sampson.

For the record, I think there is a very realistic chance that MU finishes in the Top 4-5 of the Big East this year.

[NersEllenson]

To be fair, my own prediction was that we'd finish in the top half.  
You're confusing the argument I had with Lenny and others, in which I questioned why someone who claimed that Buzz upgraded recruiting and coaching over Crean couldn't bring himself to predict a finish better than Crean's 4th place finish of 2006.

I find it funny how you've done nothing but argue how much better our talent is than what Crean brought in, and what a huge upgrade in coaching Buzz represents, yet are now predicting that Buzz will [drum roll, please] . . . MATCH Tom Crean's average Big East coaching performance.

Well, if you honestly feel that Buzz is such a huge upgrade, why are you inclined to predict the same 5th/4th place finish that Crean gave us in his 3 Big East seasons?

See below.  Not sure I could express it any better.  Thank you Navin.

Really? You think its weak that someone won't predict a finish in one particular season that is better than some other guy's average? Fine, since you seem to be suggesting that specific circumstances of a given season aren't relevant, I predict Indiana will not finish better this season than the average Big Ten finish of Bob Knight, Mike Davis, or Kelvin Sampson.

For the record, I think there is a very realistic chance that MU finishes in the Top 4-5 of the Big East this year.

[brewcity77]

I'm not surprised to see us overlooked again. We lost Lazar as well as two other senior starters. For the casual onlooker, we are a team with a lot of question marks. If everything breaks absolutely right for us, such as...

• Butler goes 1st team All-Big East
• DJO becomes a 20+ ppg player
• Otule stays healthy and can become a solid defensive stopper and rebounder
• Cadougan or Blue can emerge as a reliable ball-control starting PG
• Our deep talent base proves to be 8-10 deep with quality play

...then we can challenge for a Big East title and have a legitimate shot at making a run to the second or third weekend of March Madness. However, if...

• Butler can't develop into a team leader
• DJO has a second-year slump and still can't put together a full 40 minutes
• Otule either gets injured or never develops into a legitimate starting 5
• No one replaces Cubillan and Acker at the point
• Our depth proves to be mostly inexperienced youth not ready for this level

...then we may be facing a finish in the bottom half of the Big East, making that 10th place prediction look pretty accurate.

My honest expectation is that we will crack the top 4 this year, either a 3rd or 4th place finish and finally getting that coveted double-bye in the Big East tourney. I still don't think we'll get much recognition until we prove something in March, but I do think the talent is there, and within the next 3 years, a return to the Final Four is very possible.

[Marquette84]

See below.  Not sure I could express it any better.  Thank you Navin.

Actually Navins example is terrible.  Nobody I know has claimed that Crean has already proven to be a better coach and recruiter than Knight  (unlike your claim that Buzz is not only better than Crean, but will go down in history as better than Al once he has 10-15 years under his belt).  

So I'll ask you again . . . since you've been on your high horse for the better part of a year telling us how much better our talent is now, and how much deeper the roster is, and how much better our coaching is, why don't you think we'll perform any better?

[avid1010]

Actually Navins example is terrible.  Nobody I know has claimed that Crean has already proven to be a better coach and recruiter than Knight  (unlike your claim that Buzz is not only better than Crean, but will go down in history as better than Al once he has 10-15 years under his belt).  

So I'll ask you again . . . since you've been on your high horse for the better part of a year telling us how much better our talent is now, and how much deeper the roster is, and how much better our coaching is, why don't you think we'll perform any better?

This is you arguing for the sake of arguing.

[bilsu]

To be fair, my own prediction was that we'd finish in the top half.  
You're confusing the argument I had with Lenny and others, in which I questioned why someone who claimed that Buzz upgraded recruiting and coaching over Crean couldn't bring himself to predict a finish better than Crean's 4th place finish of 2006.

I find it funny how you've done nothing but argue how much better our talent is than what Crean brought in, and what a huge upgrade in coaching Buzz represents, yet are now predicting that Buzz will [drum roll, please] . . . MATCH Tom Crean's average Big East coaching performance.

Well, if you honestly feel that Buzz is such a huge upgrade, why are you inclined to predict the same 5th/4th place finish that Crean gave us in his 3 Big East seasons?

Buzz has done a better job recruiting. However, I am not sure our starting five is better than Crean's typical starting five. Where Buzz recruiting shows up is the second team. This year's second string would run over any of Crean's second string teams. Depth helps, but will not beat the team with the superior starting five. Also depth bodes well for the future, because you are replacing starters with players within the program.

[NersEllenson]

Actually Navins example is terrible.  Nobody I know has claimed that Crean has already proven to be a better coach and recruiter than Knight  (unlike your claim that Buzz is not only better than Crean, but will go down in history as better than Al once he has 10-15 years under his belt).  

So I'll ask you again . . . since you've been on your high horse for the better part of a year telling us how much better our talent is now, and how much deeper the roster is, and how much better our coaching is, why don't you think we'll perform any better?

You sure do like to twist/distort things to fit your agenda.  I never said Buzz will go down in history as better than Al - but I did vote that I believe he can RIVAL (mean approach or closely parallel Al's accomplishments).  Very loft expectation for me to make?  Yes, as we are just entering year 3 of the Buzz's career at MU.

That said, this is really just Year 1 of the roster being comprised of Buzz players.  I think building a program and putting your own identity/trademark on a program happens once you have "your guys" playing for you.  As I predicted, I think we can finish 4-5 in the Big East this year - and looking ahead to next year..if everyone develops well, DJO doesn't declare for the draft..I see no reason why MU cannot compete for a Big East title - which usually translates into an Elite 8 or Final Four appearance of late.  Obviously Tom Crean and D-Wade led us to a Final Four..but not a Big east championship - so, from that perspective..yes..I do think it will soon bear itself out on the court that our upgraded talent and coaching will take us to higher levels in the Big East than we saw under Tom Crean.

[chapman]

I have a feeling a lot of rankings are just based on What Goes In - What Went Out.  They forget about Cadougan and Otule.  Key to the season, like last year, is the seniors leading the team and playing mistake-free.  There's more talent than last year, but also plenty of mistakes going to be made.  The freshmen and sophomores collectively will be the ones making a poor decision for every great play, so Butler, Fulce, and Buycks absolutely cannot be the ones killing possessions or having defensive lapses.  That'll be enough to have a good team; we'll have a great team if DJO and Crowder play more like the expectations given to the seniors and less like underclassmen.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So, am I reading it correctly that they picked us for 10th or was that only for scheduling purposes and they will re-pick for media day?

[Marquette84]

You sure do like to twist/distort things to fit your agenda.  I never said Buzz will go down in history as better than Al - but I did vote that I believe he can RIVAL (mean approach or closely parallel Al's accomplishments).  Very loft expectation for me to make?  Yes, as we are just entering year 3 of the Buzz's career at MU.

Allow me to restate:  Navin's example is irrelevant. Nobody claimed that Crean already "rivals" Knight, like you did in claiming that Buzz is Al rival.

That said, this is really just Year 1 of the roster being comprised of Buzz players. 
I think building a program and putting your own identity/trademark on a program happens once you have "your guys" playing for you.  As I predicted, I think we can finish 4-5 in the Big East this year - and looking ahead to next year..if everyone develops well, DJO doesn't declare for the draft..I see no reason why MU cannot compete for a Big East title - which usually translates into an Elite 8 or Final Four appearance of late. 

For a year you've arguing that Buzz has ALREADY improved our talent and has ALREADY improved coaching. Now you are saying "Nope, not til next year--and that is IF a lot of things go right."

Obviously Tom Crean and D-Wade led us to a Final Four..but not a Big east championship  
so, from that perspective..yes..I do think it will soon bear itself out on the court that our upgraded talent and coaching will take us to higher levels in the Big East than we saw under Tom Crean.

So essentially, after a year of debate, you're agreeing with me.  Buzz has not yet proven that he's surpassed Crean.  And you don't think he'll do it this year.  Maybe next year.

The only difference between you and me is that I'm not willing to give Buzz credit for accomplishing something that he hasn't accomplished yet.  

If we finish in the top 3 next year, Buzz will deserve credit for taking us to the next level.  But he hasn't done it yet.

For now, I'll give Buzz the complement that he's done a great job keeping us at the same level that Crean brought us to. For some strange reason, you think that's a criticism of Buzz--an "agenda" as you put it.  

One more question for you: given that the coaches have apparently picked us to finish somewhere between 10th and 12th, does the fact that you think we'll finish 4th/5th mean you have an anti-Buzz agenda and are setting him up to fail?

[NersEllenson]

84 - I do not want to continue to make every discussion a debate about Tom Crean versus Buzz Williams..yet you cannot help yourself from doing so.  As for my prediction this upcoming season about MU finishing as a 4 or 5 in the Big East - yet they are projected as 10th best team by the coaches - No..that does not mean I'm setting Buzz up to fail.  Looking at the talent on the roster, I believe it is very conceivable he can coach this team to a 4th place finish this year..as we know what DJO, Butler, Buycks, Fulce bring to the table.  We also know there is a lot of young talent behind them.

However, to predict last year..after losing the Big 3..and having never seen DJO, Buycks, Mamon, Cadougan play..that MU would finish Top 5 in Big East..was VERY optimistic.  Additionally, given your longstanding objective and motivation to defend Tom Crean to death.....it stands to reason that you set expectations way higher than any Big East coach, nationally respected college basketball analyst, or 95% of MU fans..so as to make Buzz look not as good as measured against Tom Crean if he didn't achieve a Top 5 finish.  Lastly, you always argued how good of situation Buzz came into with the Big 3..and how could he have not had a great first year given all that talent - that said, once he lost the Big 3..you would think any reasonable prognosticator would have ratcheted down expectations.  But not you...yet conversely you argued how great of situation Buzz walked into with all of the returning talent..but once that talent left..it was interesting that you didn't think there would be an drop off.

[NavinRJohnson]

Allow me to restate:  Navin's example is irrelevant.

So is your assertion that there is something inconsistent about one's unwillingness to predict that MU will finish better than Crean's "average finish" in this particular season. Ask hm if he is willing to predict that MU will have more success in the Big East overall under Buzz, and you might have something. But to limit it to one individual season is just plain stupid.

[Marquette84]

So is your assertion that there is something inconsistent about one's unwillingness to predict that MU will finish better than Crean's "average finish" in this particular season. Ask hm if he is willing to predict that MU will have more success in the Big East overall under Buzz, and you might have something. But to limit it to one individual season is just plain stupid.

Ners has made no bones about the fact that he thinks that Buzz has surpassed Crean in both coaching and recruiting.  He even thinks that Buzz rivals Al. 

So, yes, I do think its inconsistent for him to set an expectation this year that is no better than what Crean delivered.

If Ners were consistent, he would agree with my view that Buzz has successfully demonstrated that he can maintain the level of success we've seen under Crean, but Buzz hasn't proven he's better yet.

[bilsu]

So, am I reading it correctly that they picked us for 10th or was that only for scheduling purposes and they will re-pick for media day?

Yes, that is correct. This was a May ranking. Media day will have a new ranking.

[Marquette84]

84 - I do not want to continue to make every discussion a debate about Tom Crean versus Buzz Williams..yet you cannot help yourself from doing so. 

Look at the mirror, pal.  You called me into this--I didn't go looking for this debate.

As for my prediction this upcoming season about MU finishing as a 4 or 5 in the Big East - yet they are projected as 10th best team by the coaches - No..that does not mean I'm setting Buzz up to fail.  Looking at the talent on the roster, I believe it is very conceivable he can coach this team to a 4th place finish this year..as we know what DJO, Butler, Buycks, Fulce bring to the table.  We also know there is a lot of young talent behind them.

And I made a similar analysis last year with a nearly identical projection and you called it proof of an "agenda" and "setting Buzz up to fail."

However, to predict last year..after losing the Big 3..and having never seen DJO, Buycks, Mamon, Cadougan play..that MU would finish Top 5 in Big East..was VERY optimistic. 
Additionally, given your longstanding objective and motivation to defend Tom Crean to death.....it stands to reason that you set expectations way higher than any Big East coach, nationally respected college basketball analyst, or 95% of MU fans..so as to make Buzz look not as good as measured against Tom Crean if he didn't achieve a Top 5 finish. 

I'm flattered that you think I have that much influence over the basketball world. 

But frankly, if the best Buzz could do was to beat out Rutgers and St. Johns for 12th, he'd look pretty bad regardless.

Lastly, you always argued how good of situation Buzz came into with the Big 3..and how could he have not had a great first year given all that talent - that said, once he lost the Big 3..you would think any reasonable prognosticator would have ratcheted down expectations.  But not you...yet conversely you argued how great of situation Buzz walked into with all of the returning talent..but once that talent left..it was interesting that you didn't think there would be an drop off.

First, I did ratchet down expectations.  We finished in a tie for 5th the year before in a VERY strong year, with a difficult crossover schedule.  I said we had too much talent to finish worse than 8th, with a possible upside of 5th or 6th given the favorable schedule and overall decline in league talent.   

Second, while you and the rest of the world where crying in your beer and couldn't see anything past the loss of the Big 3, I was looking at what we actually did have in our favor:
--Hayward's pre-season 1st round draft projections and all-conference honors
--the #4 national offensive rating for Butler and his outstanding play in the last 10 conference games
--2 incoming first team AA JUCOS--who based on past history would be capable of contributing immediately
--Acker's outstanding play against 5 elite-eight teams the year before,
--A significant departure of talent from most of our Big East rivals
--A very favorable schedule
--Superior recruiting class compared to the rest of the league.

Third, the irony here is that I actually thought Buzz brought in a class that included some players who could step in an play right away in Buycks and Butler.  You were the one who thought Buzz's recruits were suspect.

[Coleman]

At the first sound of it, 10th seems bad (and would be in most 10 or 12 team leagues), but if you think about a 16 team league that usually sends 8 teams to the NCAA tournament, we only have to exceed expectations by 2 or 3 positions to be dancing, which I think we would all consider a successful season..

[APieperFan3]

It seems like every year the coaches put us towards the bottom of the league and then we prove them wrong.  You'd think eventually we'd get respect considering we've had double digit wins every year in Big East play.

Oh well though, it actually helps us that they put us in that low of a tier.

So to the coaches I say f*ck off and thank you!

haha! my thoughts EXACTLY.

bulletin board material.