4Ever, send me your address in an email - you win

[ChicosBailBonds]

Give me a freakin' break. The only way Crean could have helped would have been by recruiting some additional BE caliber players to go with DJ, Wes, and Jerel. No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft. It can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped the 3 seniors rather than hurting them.

I don't understand your comment about recruiting additional BE calibre players and how that would have helped DJ, Wes and Jerel?  Isn't the NBA drafting players based on their individual skills?  If not, how does someone like Patty Mills at St. Mary's get drafted?  St. Mary's certainly wasn't recruiting BE players to play around Patty?

And if you want to go there, wasn't Nick Williams, Tyshawn Taylor, Lazar Hayward and others all BE quality players recruited (and landed) to play with DJ, Wes and Jerel?

[mviale]

+1 chicos - TC delivered Nick williams and TT and look how much they did for MU this year.  Go Tom Crean. Oops, Williams just left crean.

[MUDPT]

Didn't Buzz coach Jason Smith, or was that Layer?

Whatever, this might be the most ridiculous post I have ever read on here.  So out of the hundreds of basketball prospects there are on earth, somehow one college basketball coach with limited to moderate success is able to somehow coax a pick out of the 60 that are drafted?  And seriously what are the old coach's NBA connections?  Sichting? Panaggio?

For what it's worth, Jerel was listed as one of the sleepers of this draft on Basketball Prospectus.

[Lennys Tap]

I don't understand your comment about recruiting additional BE calibre players and how that would have helped DJ, Wes and Jerel?  Isn't the NBA drafting players based on their individual skills?  If not, how does someone like Patty Mills at St. Mary's get drafted?  St. Mary's certainly wasn't recruiting BE players to play around Patty?

And if you want to go there, wasn't Nick Williams, Tyshawn Taylor, Lazar Hayward and others all BE quality players recruited (and landed) to play with DJ, Wes and Jerel?

Patty Mills got drafted because the St Mary's coach had NBA "connections".

[Marquette84]

Patty Mills got drafted because the St Mary's coach had NBA "connections".

I thought this might warrant some research.

Randy Bennett came up under the coaching tree of longtime Spurs (and current Cavs) assistant Hank Egan while Egan was at SDSU. Egan is widely credited as the guy who designed the Spurs' championship and NBA leading offense through the early 2000's.

And guess which NBA team current Blazers GM Kevin Pritchart (who drafted Mills) worked for before he landed at Portland?   San Antonio, right alongside Hank Egan.

Amazing coincidence, don't you think? 

Not to mention that Bennett also worked under Lorenzo Romar--who played five NBA seasons at PG before starting his college coaching career.

While you like to make jokes, there just might be something to the fact that St. Mary's coach learned from Hank Egan, a guy who ultimately became one of the leading offensive assistants in the NBA, later learned from Lorenzo Romar a guy who actually played five years in the NBA, and then had his player drafted by a GM who worked for several years alongside Egan.

Let's ignore for now the obvious point that these guys talked to each other---Bennett's very system was patterned after an NBA offense that he learned from a leading coach and player. 

But NBA connections mean nothing. 


Do you think St. Mary's offense was at least partially based on Egan's design?  You think that might have helped give Mills a bit of an edge?

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1 chicos - TC delivered Nick williams and TT and look how much they did for MU this year.  Go Tom Crean. Oops, Williams just left crean.

We all get that mviale, but they were recruited to MU and signed with MU.  They didn't want to play for Buzz, why I don't know, but they didn't. 

It seems to come back to the same themes over and over again....Crean was a jerk, he was a douche, he couldn't recruit and he couldn't coach (yet somehow we kept making the NCAAs, kept putting players in the NBA, etc).

I sure hope Buzz can be equally poor at recruiting and coaching (thus going to the NCAAs and putting guys in the NBA...oops) as long as he is less "douchy".   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Patty Mills got drafted because the St Mary's coach had NBA "connections".

Amazingly, he made it despite not having any Big East talent around him to help him.  

[GGGG]

No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft.

Absolutely false.  NBA GMs most definately talk to the coaches as part of the process to get a better sense of their practice habits, how they are off the floor, etc.  A few years ago I read a story about the NFL draft and the role that college coaches play.  It said that Joe Paterno has a reputation for being brutally honest with NFL scouts, and because of that, many Penn State players have been drafted higher than people think.  OTOH, Mike Price, formerly of Washington State, has a reputation of being pretty much and out and out liar.  (See Ryan Leaf)  Many GMs avoid Washington State players because of it.

So if NBA GMs trust Tom Crean's opinions, he can most definately help.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Absolutely false.  NBA GMs most definately talk to the coaches as part of the process to get a better sense of their practice habits, how they are off the floor, etc.  A few years ago I read a story about the NFL draft and the role that college coaches play.  It said that Joe Paterno has a reputation for being brutally honest with NFL scouts, and because of that, many Penn State players have been drafted higher than people think.  OTOH, Mike Price, formerly of Washington State, has a reputation of being pretty much and out and out liar.  (See Ryan Leaf)  Many GMs avoid Washington State players because of it.

So if NBA GMs trust Tom Crean's opinions, he can most definately help.

+1   Of course they do.  That's what trust and relationships are all about.  They very much care about coaches opinions, especially ones they have a long track record with.

[Lennys Tap]

Absolutely false.  NBA GMs most definately talk to the coaches as part of the process to get a better sense of their practice habits, how they are off the floor, etc.  A few years ago I read a story about the NFL draft and the role that college coaches play.  It said that Joe Paterno has a reputation for being brutally honest with NFL scouts, and because of that, many Penn State players have been drafted higher than people think.  OTOH, Mike Price, formerly of Washington State, has a reputation of being pretty much and out and out liar.  (See Ryan Leaf)  Many GMs avoid Washington State players because of it.

So if NBA GMs trust Tom Crean's opinions, he can most definately help.

You say that Paterno was "brutally honest" and that therefore his players were drafted higher than projected. Wouldn't being brutally honest result in some players being drafted higher and others lower than projected?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just a few examples of the college coach's input before someone is drafted.  To be perfectly clear, I'd be stunned if they didn't talk to Buzz. I'm sure they did and Buzz talked the three up considerably, that's part of his job.

There are examples like the one below all over the internet with Bill Self, Roy Williams, yes...Tom Crean, etc, etc.

If GMs didn't care or give a crap what their college coaches thought about the players, why are they bothering to solicit their input?

J



---------------------------------------


Chronicle: What kind of influence did you have on Gerald's decision to go pro?

Krzyzewski: Well, we are fully supportive of that decision. When our guys go into the Draft, we like it where they are not going in to test the waters. We know enough people and we can get enough knowledge to determine where he might be drafted. And if it is in a good spot, he can improve that in his workouts and interviews, and he was in a good spot. So once his name was in, we knew he wasn't coming back, and we were part of helping with the selection of an agent. We were a part of whatever Gerald and his family wanted us to be a part of.

We think that Gerald has a great chance of being a lottery pick, and what happens is that I work with his agent in talking to teams. In the last eight days, he has had three workouts and interviews, so I will call the General Manager or the coach of those teams after the interview and give them input. And obviously people call us to talk about Gerald.

[Hards Alumni]

If you don't make the call to a player's head coach you deserve to get a bad player.

If you don't make calls on your player's behalf you deserve to get bad players.


basically, selling your players is part of your job, and important for longevity... having players in the NBA will get you better players.

[GGGG]

You say that Paterno was "brutally honest" and that therefore his players were drafted higher than projected. Wouldn't being brutally honest result in some players being drafted higher and others lower than projected?

Yes....I actually meant to say "higher and lower."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Absolutely true.

And from my understanding the GM's want to know very intricate details about how coachable the kid is, what's his family situation, how mature he is, what are the areas he needs to improve on, etc.  The interview with the kid's college coach can be very important and sway someone that is a 2nd round pick material from actually being picked or not.

Of course it's based on talent evaluation, but a scout can only see so many games.  At the Angels, we relied tremendously on the high school and college coaches because they are with these kids EVERY DAY.  You supplement that information from them with your own analysis to make decisions on who to draft and where to draft them.  In some cases, it might be an athlete out of the blue playing for a high school coach that has never had that good of a player.  So you weigh his opinions less than a coach that has seen that quality of athlete time and time again.

It never hurts having a college coach trying to sell your players in the draft and having a fantastic network in which to do so.  That's a recruiting advantage as well to say you're in tight with most of the NBA.

[MuMark]

TC said on Twitter that he did talk to GM's about "his former Marquette guys" so either he gave them bad reviews(doubtful I would say) or the GM's listened to TC's words of wisdom and then decided to pass on the MU guys anyway.


Bottom line is coaches who don't like a kid can negatively impact his draft position  much more so then a coach pumping a player up can get a kid drafted who would not have been otherwise.

GM's draft talent and use attitude and other intangibles as a filter.

Clearly the MU guys got positive comments from TC and Buzz so we can only assume that they weren't drafted because GM's and scouts viewed them as lacking in some areas important to the NBA game.

Jim Calhoun's NBA contacts had nothing to do with Thabeet going #2. His 7'3 frame and shot blocking ability did. Price got drafted in the 2nd round...good for Calhoun I guess...but not so good with Jeff Adrien who went undrafted.

I have nothing against TC...glad he was here.....was perfect coach for MU at the time he was hired........did his coaching help some guys get to the NBA...I'm sure it did.....was it his contacts?

Seriously doubt it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

TC said on Twitter that he did talk to GM's about "his former Marquette guys" so either he gave them bad reviews(doubtful I would say) or the GM's listened to TC's words of wisdom and then decided to pass on the MU guys anyway.


Bottom line is coaches who don't like a kid can negatively impact his draft position  much more so then a coach pumping a player up can get a kid drafted who would not have been otherwise.

GM's draft talent and use attitude and other intangibles as a filter.

Clearly the MU guys got positive comments from TC and Buzz so we can only assume that they weren't drafted because GM's and scouts viewed them as lacking in some areas important to the NBA game.

Jim Calhoun's NBA contacts had nothing to do with Thabeet going #2. His 7'3 frame and shot blocking ability did. Price got drafted in the 2nd round...good for Calhoun I guess...but not so good with Jeff Adrien who went undrafted.

I have nothing against TC...glad he was here.....was perfect coach for MU at the time he was hired........did his coaching help some guys get to the NBA...I'm sure it did.....was it his contacts?

Seriously doubt it.

I agree with you entirely on the Thabeet or any lottery type kid. Those kids are unanimous picks and it doesn't really matter about any other input.

I believe where relationships can come into play are the lower 2nd round picks where it's hard to distinguish between one guy and the next, any added edge can put you over the top.   

[Lennys Tap]

I thought this might warrant some research.

Randy Bennett came up under the coaching tree of longtime Spurs (and current Cavs) assistant Hank Egan while Egan was at SDSU. Egan is widely credited as the guy who designed the Spurs' championship and NBA leading offense through the early 2000's.

And guess which NBA team current Blazers GM Kevin Pritchart (who drafted Mills) worked for before he landed at Portland?   San Antonio, right alongside Hank Egan.

Amazing coincidence, don't you think? 

Not to mention that Bennett also worked under Lorenzo Romar--who played five NBA seasons at PG before starting his college coaching career.

While you like to make jokes, there just might be something to the fact that St. Mary's coach learned from Hank Egan, a guy who ultimately became one of the leading offensive assistants in the NBA, later learned from Lorenzo Romar a guy who actually played five years in the NBA, and then had his player drafted by a GM who worked for several years alongside Egan.

Let's ignore for now the obvious point that these guys talked to each other---Bennett's very system was patterned after an NBA offense that he learned from a leading coach and player. 

But NBA connections mean nothing. 


Do you think St. Mary's offense was at least partially based on Egan's design?  You think that might have helped give Mills a bit of an edge?

Huh?