Brownwell mentioned for Xavier gig

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Jimmy Butler is a fine representative. Like him a lot. Joseph Fulce is a fine representative. Also, seemingly a fine young man.

Having a basketball team made up of 5 or 6 junior college transfers is not representative. Is that so difficult to understand?

Can somebody with access those kind of numbers come up with a list of schools with 5 or more junior college transfers on their roster? I'd be interested to see what kind of company we're keeping in that regard. 

While were at it, PRN, can you check and see the success rate of schools that have 6 guys in the same class? If Buzz had not brought in some JUCO players, he would have been left bringing in 6 Frosh, which would have left an extremely unbalanced roster, which would be tough to overcome when A. those players are all frosh. and B. when they all graduate.

Thanks in advance.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Do you have a crystal ball?  How do you know that none of these guys are going to graduate?  That none of these guys will be great embassadors of the University?  I love the quick move to judge these guys and Buzz's read on people.

I do know that if we wait around and land a few poor prospects that can't play (But can be here for 4 years) and we end up with 2 BEAST wins and a first round exit in the NIT that this board would be on fire.

Damned if do, damned if we don't.

It doesn't matter if they "graduate." Having half our roster made up of junior college transfers is not representative of Marquette University. Having a roster made up of non-qualifiers like Wade wouldn't be either.

[GGGG]

It doesn't matter if they "graduate." Having half our roster made up of junior college transfers is not representative of Marquette University. Having a roster made up of non-qualifiers like Wade wouldn't be either.

What does "representative of Marquette University" even mean?  My guess is that many of the members of the basketball team wouldn't get into MU in the first place if they weren't basketball players.  Do you think Jeronne Maymon would get in otherwise?  Hell no...

My guess is that someone like Dwight Buycks who goes to a JC and proves he can cut it in the classroom is a lot more likely to be admitted than someone like Maymon.

[jmayer1]

It seems like there are some on this board who will find a reason to piss and moan no matter what MU does.  It's funny that these same posters will say they are some of the biggest MU supporters around, yet one would have to search near and far to find a positive post they have ever made on this board.

Case in point:

I'm sorry, but I'm not encouraged by the fact that half our roster next year are going to be junior college transfers. They might be great players...and I hope they are...but I don't care what anybody says, that's not representative of Marquette University. Somehow, I don't think Tony Bennett or Brownell would have gone that route. What are some of you guys willing to sacrifice to win 10 games in the Big East and lose in the 1st or 2nd round of the NCAA?

Educate us all, oh wise PRN!!!  Tell us what you think Buzz should have done with the 6 open scholarships.  Should he have bit the bullet and recruited all freshmen so that MU would have unbalance classes and no experience going into next year?  Or should he have sought to balance the classes with a couple juco guys who should be able to add some college experience to next year's team?

It's a shame MU had to bring in guys like Lott, Blackledge, Wade, Fulce, Butler, Marcus Jackson, Kinsella.  All of these guys were either Juco transfers or academic risks and yet they all seemed to represent MU quite well.  Granted, none of these guys, aside from Wade, turned out to be great players (the jury is still out on Fulce and Bulter) but they all were fine citizens at MU and as far as I know, all graduated (aside from DW).

[mviale]

Take it easy - buycks, fulce, butler and DJO are just filling holes leftover from the coaching "transition" from last April. Unfortunately, due to this hasty departure, spotty recruiting classes and transfers, we are put into this situation.  However, I am sure we will see more frosh in the future such as Aaron Bowen.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It's a shame MU had to bring in guys like Lott, Blackledge, Wade, Fulce, Butler, Marcus Jackson, Kinsella.  All of these guys were either Juco transfers or academic risks and yet they all seemed to represent MU quite well.  

Were those guys all on our roster at the same time? 

You can all keep deluding yourselves into thinking it's right or necessary, or the way things are done. But it's not. It represents a trouble shift in philosophy, if you ask me.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It doesn't matter if they "graduate." Having half our roster made up of junior college transfers is not representative of Marquette University. Having a roster made up of non-qualifiers like Wade wouldn't be either.

Agree 100%

True representatives of MU must be white kids from suburban catholic high schools that go to MU for 4 years.

People like Jerome Whitehead (I think he was a JUCO), Jimmy Butler and Marcus Jackson need not apply.

[Pakuni]

It doesn't matter if they "graduate." Having half our roster made up of junior college transfers is not representative of Marquette University. Having a roster made up of non-qualifiers like Wade wouldn't be either.

The shifting sands of a PRN argument.
First it was five or six JUCOs on the roster (actually four).
Now it's "half", which would be accurate if MU roster's consisted of eight players.

By the way, Brad Brownell - you know, the guy who wouldn't stoop to trolling the JUCO ranks - had a pair of JUCO's on his roster this year. An assistant coach must have duped him.

And yet we're still waiting for an explanation as to how Jimmy Butler, Joe Fulce, etc. are poor representatives of Marquette. Apparently Jimmy Butler is a lesser individual because he chose to spend a year at JUCO rather than accept a scholarship to a four-year school he didn't want to attend. Joe Fulce is a poor representative of Marquette because he chose to play at a JUCO rather than sit out a year as a transfer. DJO reflects poorly on MU because he went to JUCO for a year because the always efficient, responsive and speedy NCAA Clearinghouse took forever to clear him.
Do I have that right?

Maybe we'd be better off is Buzz brought in only four year players like Bo Ryan ... you know, kids that represent the university well like Boo Wade and Marcetteaus McGee.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Pakuni -- it's pathetic, even for you, to claim that I said these individuals are poor representatives of Marquette. Truly pathetic. What's worse, you know what I am saying and cannot dispute it so you stoop to putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I say junior college kids have no place at Marquette. I quite simply said having 5 or 6 (or 4) of them on the roster at the same time is not representative of Marquette and represents a shift in philosophy.

Can you dispute what I actually said, instead of feigning indignity at non existant slights to individual players? I don't know if you're too slow to grasp what I'm saying or just too stubborn to admit I'm right.

[mu-rara]

Pakuni -- it's pathetic, even for you, to claim that I said these individuals are poor representatives of Marquette. Truly pathetic. What's worse, you know what I am saying and cannot dispute it so you stoop to putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I say junior college kids have no place at Marquette. I quite simply said having 5 or 6 (or 4) of them on the roster at the same time is not representative of Marquette and represents a shift in philosophy.

Can you dispute what I actually said, instead of feigning indignity at non existant slights to individual players? I don't know if you're too slow to grasp what I'm saying or just too stubborn to admit I'm right.

PRN, 

as mentioned by by other posters, the number of JUCO transfers is due to the very unbalanced roster Buzz inherited.  If this becomes a trend, then we have something to discuss

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Agree 100%

True representatives of MU must be white kids from suburban catholic high schools that go to MU for 4 years.

People like Jerome Whitehead (I think he was a JUCO), Jimmy Butler and Marcus Jackson need not apply.

Right...because I'm a racist.

I continue to be embarrassed for you.

[GregShimonFor2]

Thank goodness PRN is back to spew his hate and question everything. Clown. 

[Pakuni]

Pakuni -- it's pathetic, even for you, to claim that I said these individuals are poor representatives of Marquette. Truly pathetic. What's worse, you know what I am saying and cannot dispute it so you stoop to putting words in my mouth.

Nowhere did I say junior college kids have no place at Marquette. I quite simply said having 5 or 6 (or 4) of them on the roster at the same time is not representative of Marquette and represents a shift in philosophy.

Can you dispute what I actually said, instead of feigning indignity at non existant slights to individual players? I don't know if you're too slow to grasp what I'm saying or just too stubborn to admit I'm right.

Wait, exactly who's feigning here?
You started this by saying having these JUCO's on the roster was "not representative of Marquette University" and something beneath upstanding coaches like Brownell and Bennett wouldn't do.
Everyone here, myself included, correctly took that to mean you believe these kids, or at least their presence at MU, reflects poorly on the university.
Fine. But now you're backpedaling faster than Champ Bailey saying it just represents a "Shift in philosophy" and there's nothing wrong with having JUCO kids at MU.
Hmmm. I call bull----.
I'd like to believe you're intelligent enough - though maybe I'm wrong - that if it was your intention was to say this merely represented a benign philosophical shift, then you would have phrased your statement that way. You didn't. Instead you used phrases like you were "not encouraged" and what we're "willing to sacrifice" to win games. Clearly you view the presence of these kids as a negative for Marquette.
And yet you act indignantly when someone questions why you believe these kids are bad for Marquette.
As much as you try, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim these are four fine individuals, then turn around and say it's bad to have them on the roster collectively.
If MU had a roster full of non-qualifying JUCOs, your point would have some validity. But given that three of the four would have qualified without going the JUCO route - a difference you're either unwilling or incapable of recognizing - your gripes have no merit.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Wait, exactly who's feigning here?
You started this by saying having these JUCO's on the roster was "not representative of Marquette University" and something beneath upstanding coaches like Brownell and Bennett wouldn't do.
Everyone here, myself included, correctly took that to mean you believe these kids, or at least their presence at MU, reflects poorly on the university.
Fine. But now you're backpedaling faster than Champ Bailey saying it just represents a "Shift in philosophy" and there's nothing wrong with having JUCO kids at MU.
Hmmm. I call bull----.
I'd like to believe you're intelligent enough - though maybe I'm wrong - that if it was your intention was to say this merely represented a benign philosophical shift, then you would have phrased your statement that way. You didn't. Instead you used phrases like you were "not encouraged" and what we're "willing to sacrifice" to win games. Clearly you view the presence of these kids as a negative for Marquette.
And yet you act indignantly when someone questions why you believe these kids are bad for Marquette.
As much as you try, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim these are four fine individuals, then turn around and say it's bad to have them on the roster collectively.
If MU had a roster full of non-qualifying JUCOs, your point would have some validity. But given that three of the four would have qualified without going the JUCO route - a difference you're either unwilling or incapable of recognizing - your gripes have no merit.

So you don't understand it when I say Jimmy Butler is an upstanding representative of Marquette and I'm happy to have him, but having 4 or 5 junior college transfers on our basketball roster is not representative of our university?

I promise you that not "everybody" here is as confused as you.

[madtownwarrior]

Any chance we can get PRN to JUCO transfer to the fandom of another team?

With fans like him, we really don't need the UWM or Madison trolls to point out the negatives of our team...

[ChicosBailBonds]

I see both sides of the argument.  I don't think PRN is saying (he can correct me if I'm wrong) that JUCOs are inheritently bad citizens, bad students, etc.  In fact we have had some fantastic people come in from the JUCO level the last 10 years.  Sharp kids, strong character and some good ball players as well.

On the other hand, the reality also exists that there is a stigma when you go after too many JUCO's.  That stigma was very prevelent with Billy Tubbs at Oklahoma, or Tark with UNLV, as well as some other schools.  They had about 50% of their roster from JUCO land and it created a perception, wrong or right about them.

I said recently it should be on a case by case basis and I'll stick to that in terms of Juco's.  There is nothing inheritently wrong about it, but if we go down that route consistently there will be a perception whether we like it or not.

[GGGG]

So you don't understand it when I say Jimmy Butler is an upstanding representative of Marquette and I'm happy to have him, but having 4 or 5 junior college transfers on our basketball roster is not representative of our university?

I promise you that not "everybody" here is as confused as you.

I remain confused because I have no idea what you mean by "not representative of our university."  It would be helpful if you would explain that.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I will trust, Fr. Wild, Buzz and Marquette's admissions staff over the commentary above.  Truthfully I am not sure why this is a big deal unless there are problems.  There were questionable characters on and off the basketball court when I was at Marquette and it had nothing to do with what institution they came from. 

[Pakuni]

So you don't understand it when I say Jimmy Butler is an upstanding representative of Marquette and I'm happy to have him, but having 4 or 5 junior college transfers on our basketball roster is not representative of our university?

I promise you that not "everybody" here is as confused as you.

No, I don't understand it. Because it's nonsense.
Your position here basically is:
"One Jimmy Butler is great and I'm happy to have him. Four Jimmy Butlers is terrible and a poor representation of Marquette University."
If they're good kids who stay out of trouble, do their class work and earn a degree, what difference does it make how they arrived at Marquette?

What exactly is it about JUCO kids that make them less representative of Marquette University? And what about the philosophy and mission of Marquette University is not represented by their presence?

[Marquette84]

So you don't understand it when I say Jimmy Butler is an upstanding representative of Marquette and I'm happy to have him, but having 4 or 5 junior college transfers on our basketball roster is not representative of our university?

I promise you that not "everybody" here is as confused as you.

Who would be a better representative of Marquette?

A Juco like Jimmy Butler or Mike Kinsella or Jamil Lott?
Or a 4-year player like, say, Eric Devendorf?

Frankly, I would rather have a team with 13 Jucos like Butler than one made up of 13 four-year players like Devendorf.

In the final analysis, its not whether the kid attended a Juco or came straight from High School--its his fundamental charachter.

In other words, I'm going to judge the content of the character--not whether the kid had a pitstop at a junior college before enrolling at Marquette.

[tower912]

In less than 13 months, Buzz has managed to balance a roster both by position and by academic year that was left very unbalanced on both parts in the aftermath of TC's departure.    Buzz also came up through the JUCO ranks and apparently has quite the network of contacts there. (Witness getting DJO before anybody else realized he was eligible)    Lets see how these young men do in the classroom, on the court, and around the community before we make judgements.    Lets also wait and see if this is Buzz's long term MO.

[lurch91]

I think what PRN is saying, no JUCO should ever be admitted to a four year institution as that would not be representative of that any four year institution.

Come on.  These kids have should have a chance to better themselves.  Isn't that what America is about?  Get an education and get ahead?  Everyone can do that but JUCO basketball players?

I trust that Buzz will do what's right for the Marquette basketball program.  He has many ties to the JUCO ranks, so when he inherited a team nearly devoid of Big East talent (the Three Amigos and Lazar not withstanding), he infused it was talent as quickly as he could while trying to ensure that the 2009-2010 team wouldn't be relieing on too many freshman.

I think the last team to start three freshman was the Amigos freshman year, before that it was Key, Big Mac and Logterman?

[Big Papi]

Right...because I'm a racist.

I continue to be embarrassed for you.

Well I guess we don't know if you are a racist but you are extremely prejudice as you are making a prejudgment before knowing anything about the committed recruits.

As another poster stated above, based on what we know about the incoming recruits, I would take a roster full of Juco players that Buzz has recruited over players like Devendorf.

[muguru]

You play to win games.....period. That is what it's all about. As long as it's within NCAA rules and they aren't doing anything illegal, whatever gives MU the best chance of winning basketball games on a year to year basis, I support.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You play to win games.....period. That is what it's all about. As long as it's within NCAA rules and they aren't doing anything illegal, whatever gives MU the best chance of winning basketball games on a year to year basis, I support.

That's not true.  If MU was winning and playing within the NCAA rules but had a 30% graduation rate, or even a 50% graduation rate, the coach would be canned.