Should AP All-American Status be Required for Marquette Jersey Retirements?

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

If you look at the list of all Marquette players who have had their jerseys retired, all of the players on the list, with the exception of Don Kojis, garnered AP All-American status over and above honorable mention during their Marquette careers.

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/start#the_2000s

If this is the most definable standard that Marquette can use to determine whether a player's jersey/number should be retired, by being named a 2nd Team AP All-American today, then Jerel McNeal has clearly meet this requirement. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

No because those accolades are often driven by exposure and politics.  MU being in the Big East now helps considerably, but I remember the days when MU might as well have been in Siberia with no national attention.  Doesn't mean great players weren't here from time to time, but they didn't receive the All-America honors as a result of no exposure.

In the event MU isn't in the Big East down the road or the Big East changes in 10 years to a basketball only smaller conference, then I'd hate for that to be the benchmark criteria.

[MerrittsMustache]

Personally, I'd like to see certain players honored for their accomplishments and contributions to Marquette but not necessarily have their numbers retired. I think that there is a difference between being a "Marquette great" and being an "All-Time Great."

For example, Travis Diener was a great player for Marquette. Was he in the same class as Wade, Meminger and Lee? No. The same goes for Matthews and James when compared to McNeal. All 3 of them had great MU careers, but McNeal was clearly the best and most recognized player. IMO, his #22 should be retired while #1 and #23 should be honored.

I realize that not how MU does things and that it's too late to really change anything (and we all saw how it went over when MU tried to claim that they retire jerseys not numbers). That's just my two cents on how I would have suggesting doing things back in 1961

[NavinRJohnson]

Absolutely not.

[GGGG]

Al McGuire should have never had his number retired!!!

But seriously, you honor people who have had an impact on the program.  That doesn't necessarily mean they have achieved that status.

[buckchuckler]

I don't think you can even definitively say that McNeal was better than James and Matthews.  They all had aspects in which they excelled.  But look at how Jerel and Wes struggled when DJ was out.

But as for the original question I say no.

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't think you can even definitively say that McNeal was better than James and Matthews. 

McNeal was the Big East Defensive Player of the Year two years ago, a Second Team Big East selection last season, a First Team Big East selection and Second Team All-American this season, not to mention that he is Marquette's all-time leader in steals and points. Disagree if you want but I'd say that makes him better than DJ and Wes (both of whom I feel were/are outstanding players).

[CTWarrior]

Doc Rivers was never an AP All-American, first second or third team, despite what the Wiki Says, nor should he have been

1983 AP All-America Team

First Team
Dale Ellis, Tennessee, who knocked us out of the NCAA tournament
Patrick Ewing, Georgetown
Michael Jordan, UNC
Ralph Sampson, UVa
Wayman Tisdale, Oklahoma

Second Team
Clyde Drexler, Houston
Derek Harper, Illinois
Keith Lee, Memphis State
Steve Stipanovich, Missouri
Darrell Walker, Arkansas

Third Team
Antoine Carr, Wichita State
Kenny Fields, UCLA
Sam Perkins, UNC
John Pinone, Villanova
Ennis Whatley, Alabama

[BrewCity83]

Steve Stipanovich LOL.  Didn't we knock him out of the tourney in '82?

[jmayer1]

Doc Rivers was never an AP All-American, first second or third team, despite what the Wiki Says, nor should he have been

This is an excerpt from his introduction into the Marquette Athletics Hall of Fame press release:

Glenn "Doc" Rivers half-court heave to defeat No. 5 Notre Dame, 54-52, in 1981, might be what he is best remembered for at Marquette. But it was just one of many highlights in a tremendous career. A three-year starter from 1980 to 1983 for the men's basketball team, Rivers led MU to the NCAA Tournament twice and NIT once. Highlighted by his buzz-beater against Notre Dame, Rivers put together arguably the best freshman season in Marquette history. He still holds freshman records for scoring, scoring average, field-goals made, field-goals percentage and steals. All-time, Rivers ranks third in steals, seventh in assists and is tied for 23rd in scoring. The only player in the program's history to record over 1,000 points, 400 assists and 200 steals, Rivers had his No. 31 retired by Marquette in 2004. He earned first team Converse All-American honors in 1982, and was an honorable mention Associated Press and United Press International All-American in 1983. Drafted in the second round of the 1983 NBA Draft by the Atlanta Hawks, Rivers averaged 10.9 points, 5.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds over his 13-year playing career.

http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/092304aaa.html

I think that is what is in his wiki entry.

[jutaw22mu]

Personally, I would favor future retirements having the requirement that the player must excel both on the court and in the classroom.  There definetely should be a graduation and minimum GPA requirement.

[77ncaachamps]

No no no.

It only ENHANCES the likelihood of a jersey to be retired...but it'd be a moot point because you already know the kid's a stud and it's gonna happen.

[CTWarrior]

Steve Stipanovich LOL.  Didn't we knock him out of the tourney in '82?

Unfortunately, no.  It was the other way around.  He and Missouri knocked us out in 82.

[CTWarrior]

This is an excerpt from his introduction into the Marquette Athletics Hall of Fame press release:

Glenn "Doc" Rivers half-court heave to defeat No. 5 Notre Dame, 54-52, in 1981, might be what he is best remembered for at Marquette. But it He earned first team Converse All-American honors in 1982, and was an honorable mention Associated Press and United Press International All-American in 1983.

http://www.gomarquette.com/genrel/092304aaa.html

I think that is what is in his wiki entry.

Under accolades the Wiki says 1982-83 AP All American.  I didn't notice the text you reference at first.  THe only reason I brought it up was because I was stunned when I read TC's TB 's original post on this thread that implied Doc earned AP All-America honors.  So I looked up who the All-American teams were. 

While he was obviously a good player, MU didn't finish in any top 25s while he was here, nor did he do things like average even 15 points or 6 assists.  Regardless, while Doc turned out to be an excellent pro, he did not really distinguish himself while at MU from a dozen other MU players like Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Damon Key, Brian Wardle, etc. who's numbers have not been honored.

[jmayer1]

Under accolades the Wiki says 1982-83 AP All American.  I didn't notice the text you reference at first.  THe only reason I brought it up was because I was stunned when I read TC's TB 's original post on this thread that implied Doc earned AP All-America honors.  So I looked up who the All-American teams were. 

While he was obviously a good player, MU didn't finish in any top 25s while he was here, nor did he do things like average even 15 points or 6 assists.  Regardless, while Doc turned out to be an excellent pro, he did not really distinguish himself while at MU from a dozen other MU players like Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Damon Key, Brian Wardle, etc. who's numbers have not been honored.

Agreed, I don't think Doc's number should be up in the rafters.

I think being an AP All-American (at least 3rd team, not honorable mention) should be a requirement but shouldn't necessarily mean you automatically have your number retired.  Of course, I do think Diener should eventually be up in the rafters but he was only hm so I guess maybe that's not a good idea either.

[buckchuckler]

McNeal was the Big East Defensive Player of the Year two years ago, a Second Team Big East selection last season, a First Team Big East selection and Second Team All-American this season, not to mention that he is Marquette's all-time leader in steals and points. Disagree if you want but I'd say that makes him better than DJ and Wes (both of whom I feel were/are outstanding players).

James is third in scoring and second in assist all time at MU.  James has also been Pre-Season All American, All Big East 2nd Team, Naismith Award Finalist, Cousy Award Finalist,  Mid-Season All American, CBE MVP, Big East ROY, All Rookie Team.  He was also a better defender than Jerel was this year.

[WarriorHal]

Under accolades the Wiki says 1982-83 AP All American.  I didn't notice the text you reference at first.  THe only reason I brought it up was because I was stunned when I read TC's TB 's original post on this thread that implied Doc earned AP All-America honors.  So I looked up who the All-American teams were. 

While he was obviously a good player, MU didn't finish in any top 25s while he was here, nor did he do things like average even 15 points or 6 assists.  Regardless, while Doc turned out to be an excellent pro, he did not really distinguish himself while at MU from a dozen other MU players like Tony Miller, Tony Smith, Damon Key, Brian Wardle, etc. who's numbers have not been honored.

I agree, too. I've always thought that Rivers was better in the NBA. He was a good player in college, but hardly great. Of course, he didn't get to play with great talent either, as MU quickly declined after Al retired and the players he recruited graduated. Just never quite understood what Rivers did to warrant retirement of #31 in his honor. It should be up in the rafters for Bo alone.

[BrewCity83]

Sam Worthen was as good a college player in #31 as Rivers was.