MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on March 19, 2023, 06:33:22 PM
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1. TKo is clearly hurting. Affected everything. No EGB's today
2. This team is resilient. Never a doubt they would make it a game.
3. Got a lead, got 3 happy.
4. And turnover happy.
5. I felt the ending was inevitable after Omax's flagrant. I felt MU would not get a close call the rest of the way.
6. Shaka needed to use his timeouts sooner. Take those two into the offseason.
7. Free throws matter.
8. Not a great day for the bench.
9. Playing an Izzo team in March and not playing your best game.... only one way it ends. Alas.
10. Three first year players, three second year players, three third year players. Stick together. Next year could be amazing.
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Shooting or athleticism. One of them needs to improve greatly.
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1. TKo is clearly hurting. Affected everything. No EGB's today
2. This team is resilient. Never a doubt they would make it a game.
3. Got a lead, got 3 happy.
4. And turnover happy.
5. I felt the ending was inevitable after Omax's flagrant. I felt MU would not get a close call the rest of the way.
6. Shaka needed to use his timeouts sooner. Take those two into the offseason.
7. Free throws matter.
8. Not a great day for the bench.
9. Playing an Izzo team in March and not playing your best game.... only one way it ends. Alas.
10. Three first year players, three second year players, three third year players. Stick together. Next year could be amazing.
I don't buy #9 at all.. That was a self-inflicted loss imo.
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Never a question of fight with this team. Commend them for the most consistent season-long effort I’ve ever seen from a MU team.
But brutal offensive performance today. Tough to go out on the worst scoring performance since at least December. Guessing Kolek is pretty banged up, but no doubt the mental played a role there.
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Kolek is probably hurt more than we thought and we unfortunately picked the wrong time to play our worst game of the season.
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A successful season by all accounts. Proud of the team. We'll be back strong next year.
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A successful season by all accounts. Proud of the team. We'll be back strong next year.
Hmm
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I don't buy #9 at all.. That was a self-inflicted loss imo.
Totally agree - this wasn’t an outcoached game.
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IZZO is great in March
But … MU played HORRIBLE basketball.
TKO … worst game of his MU career.
WAY too many terrible turnovers
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From 17:20 - 8:20 in the second half, started with 3 point lead:
3 points
9 turnovers
Obviously awful game from Kolek, also not Shaka’s best effort. Hoggard and Walker destroyed MU off the dribble, especially late. MU never went back to (what was extremely effective) zone.
Also Gold contributed big minutes late in the first half, never saw the floor again.
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Chase Ross and David Joplin. Having those two in the game at the same time when MU was up 2 led to turnovers in 4 of 5 possessions. Big turning point IMO
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Tough way to lose. Too many turnovers. Izzo mucked it up and made it really difficult for us flow.
Those travels and balls off the feet didn’t let us build a lead.
Such a fun team. They fought until the end.
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MU never had a feel of dynamism this year. Can improve next year.
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Sure it was. MSU's defensive scheme was the deciding factor.
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From 17:20 - 8:20 in the second half, started with 3 point lead:
3 points
9 turnovers
Obviously awful game from Kolek, also not Shaka’s best effort. Hoggard and Walker destroyed MU off the dribble, especially late. MU never went back to (what was extremely effective) zone.
Also Gold contributed big minutes late in the first half, never saw the floor again.
Yep and this has 0.0 to do with coaching. Whether it be Izzo or Shaka.
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Be honest - Tyler's thumb didn't cause the turnovers. He was complete sh*t. I say that as someone who loves him as a player.
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Izzo cries to the officials better than any coach.
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1. TKo is clearly hurting. Affected everything. No EGB's today
2. This team is resilient. Never a doubt they would make it a game.
3. Got a lead, got 3 happy.
4. And turnover happy.
5. I felt the ending was inevitable after Omax's flagrant. I felt MU would not get a close call the rest of the way.
6. Shaka needed to use his timeouts sooner. Take those two into the offseason.
7. Free throws matter.
8. Not a great day for the bench.
9. Playing an Izzo team in March and not playing your best game.... only one way it ends. Alas.
10. Three first year players, three second year players, three third year players. Stick together. Next year could be amazing.
Agree with this. Hopefully players and Shaka learned from this. We do need another big that can protect the rim. Shaka needs to find one
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Turnovers, storyline of the game. A positive all year that reversed in our worst showing of the year, almost all unforced.
Don't know what percentage his hand vs. mental was, but unfortunately this one is squarely on TK after an amazing year.
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I don't buy #9 at all.. That was a self-inflicted loss imo.
agreed.
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5. I felt the ending was inevitable after Omax's flagrant. I felt MU would not get a close call the rest of the way.
NM
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I don't buy #9 at all.. That was a self-inflicted loss imo.
+1
Uncharacteristic sloppiness cost us.
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a magical season with a massively disappointing end. I am truly shocked at how we played. this team has been so clutch for so long. uncharacteristic play, especially from your best player. kinda bummed. should have been more
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Rough day, didn’t look like the same team.
Proud of these young men for playing hard all season and giving me a lot of joy the last few months.
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Agree with this. Hopefully players and Shaka learned from this. We do need another big that can protect the rim. Shaka needs to find one
Then I need to rethink it.
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Team had an off game. Tough time for it. But such a thrill all year. Proud of what they did and the excitement they brought back to Marquette basketball.
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Turnovers, storyline of the game. A positive all year that reversed in our worst showing of the year, almost all unforced.
Don't know what percentage his hand vs. mental was, but unfortunately this one is squarely on TK after an amazing year.
51-49
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Be honest - Tyler's thumb didn't cause the turnovers. He was complete sh*t. I say that as someone who loves him as a player.
Be honest - frustration with a significant issue could cause pressing and other mental issues.
Not saying it was the cause, but it certainly isn’t an outlandish theory.
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Unforced turnovers at that. Most didn’t even require effort by MSU. They just collected them rather than made great defensive plays
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Izzo cries to the officials better than any coach.
Officials are 0.0% responsible for this loss.
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Officials are 0.0% responsible for this loss.
Yup. Turnovers. Simple as that. No great coaching strategy
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Officials are 0.0% responsible for this loss.
Agreed. We got a pretty generous whistle today. This is on MU.
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Not true. OMax hit a shot and was fouled. He went to the line and missed, keeping deficit at 1. Still had our chances.
There is always a chance. But, in my head, that made the ending inevitable.
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Yup. Turnovers. Simple as that. No great coaching strategy
This.
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Officials are 0.0% responsible for this loss.
Both are true - Izzo was in whine mode all game, but this loss was on us - the only really bad call was the missed goaltend.
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Yup. Turnovers. Simple as that. No great coaching strategy
I do think MSU’s defense took us out of our rhythm and contributed to the turnovers. We never really got into a flow and we’re pressing.
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There is always a chance. But, in my head, that made the ending inevitable.
Completely agree. I said make two we have a chance, miss one we lose. Also felt the same way about Oso’s And1.
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Kolek is probably hurt more than we thought and we unfortunately picked the wrong time to play our worst game of the season.
Yep. Great season though. We should be loaded for bear next year.
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Nothing but gratitude. Thank you to this team and board for the ride. Cannot wait until next year.
Marquette Basketball is back. We Are Marquette!
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Be honest - Tyler's thumb didn't cause the turnovers. He was complete sh*t. I say that as someone who loves him as a player.
Agreed. It was hard to watch.
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Need one or two more pieces. Another post player and guard would be big.
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The game didn't work out as planned for MU.
Will need to make some adjustments for next season in order to compete in these kind of games.
Kids at this level need to be able to use their non-dominant hand. Makes defensive strategy harder when drives can go in both directions. Would have everyone work on that at a minimum.
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I do think MSU’s defense took us out of our rhythm and contributed to the turnovers. We never really got into a flow and we’re pressing.
What they did defensively was no different than what other teams tried doing to Marquette. There wasn’t some magic scheme
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Be honest - frustration with a significant issue could cause pressing and other mental issues.
Not saying it was the cause, but it certainly isn’t an outlandish theory.
And holy unnatural carnal knowledge was TK pressing out there.
But he wasn't the only one turning it over, his just stuck out the most, along with what were effectively two live ball turnovers on his blocks.
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Officials are 0.0% responsible for this loss.
Did I say officials are responsible?
Can you disagree that Izzo cries the most ?
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Looking forward to next year. Kolek was clearly not anywhere close to himself. Needed him to win and he couldnt get what he needed to contribute.
Think about the magic from this year from a team that if everyone comes back, is gonna be even more special.
Fans upset about this have every right to be, but experienced teams rule in March.
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Roller coaster emotional game, thought MU would get blown out, fought back to get it to the half, came out on fire to start the second. MU really could have taken control of that game with a few scores during their drought. MSU was equally cold most of that same stretch.
Always sucks when a terrific season ends.
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MU played tight today and did not take control of the game when they took the lead. It is unfortunate and an opportunity was missed.
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Then I need to rethink it.
If Oso leaves plus the other two, a transfer forward could step in and start.
Somebody who can shoot with consistency and rebound. Am I asking for to much?
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Biggest positive of the day - “nolonger” is no longer.
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If Oso leaves plus the other two, a transfer forward could step in and start.
Somebody who can shoot with consistency and rebound. Am I asking for to much?
What are you referring to? I am referring to Willie agreeing with me.
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Be honest - frustration with a significant issue could cause pressing and other mental issues.
Not saying it was the cause, but it certainly isn’t an outlandish theory.
Did you see any instance where the injury impacted him physically or stopped him from doing what he normally does?
I didn't. I saw a lot of really bad decisions.
Not trying to crap on Tyler, either. But you're probably not going to win at this time of year when your best player is awful.
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Hmm
Yes? I stand by it.
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Hey, great year. Ahead on the rebuild. We are back.
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Did you see any instance where the injury impacted him physically or stopped him from doing what he normally does?
I didn't. I saw a lot of really bad decisions.
Not trying to crap on Tyler, either. But you're probably not going to win at this time of year when your best player is awful.
Yup. Tyler Kolek was a helluva player for Marquette this season. He was bad today for whatever reason. Marquette isn’t here without him. Marquette may very well be playing Thursday if he plays average today. I’ll still take him as my PG any day of the week
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Then I need to rethink it.
Be nice.
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Yup. Tyler Kolek was a helluva player for Marquette this season. He was bad today for whatever reason. Marquette isn’t here without him. Marquette may very well be playing Thursday if he plays average today. I’ll still take him as my PG any day of the week
This, 1000 times this.
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An absolutely fantastic year, but it’ll suck on Thursday when we watch K-State destroy Michigan St and know we should’ve been in that game.
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MSU had 3 possessions at the end where their guards got into the lane and finished, stretching the lead. That was the game there.
We didn't have much help but those were elite level finishes by them.
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If we are going to question strategy, I thought Shaka should’ve pulled Kolek with about 8 minutes left. He was beyond bad.
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What are you referring to? I am referring to Willie agreeing with me.
what other 2? really hope Oso would stay another year don't see a point in leaving until after next year
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Played awful. Did not deserve to win. Hope Shaka can keep the band together.
Just a fantastic season. Hurts to much to see it end. See you fellas in the fall.
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Did you see any instance where the injury impacted him physically or stopped him from doing what he normally does?
I didn't. I saw a lot of really bad decisions.
Not trying to crap on Tyler, either. But you're probably not going to win at this time of year when your best player is awful.
Bad decisions? Agreed. The why is the question. Stage too big? Possibly. Something else? Maybe. Frustration at an injury that he knew was going to affect his ability on a bunch of different levels? Certainly plausible.
I am not saying the injury was why he played bad. I have no idea. I do know that for 30 games I didn’t see this Tyler Kolek. What changed? Injury is one change. The Big Dance is the other. It will be interesting to see what the cause was, but I’m not going to rule out that injury.
By the same token, not making any excuses. He played poorly. End of story. Regardless of the reason. And, like you said, not going to win a lot of games with your best player playing that poorly
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Be nice.
All the other hair trigger irrationality this evening and you focus on this?
Thank you for your concern.
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If Oso leaves plus the other two, a transfer forward could step in and start.
Somebody who can shoot with consistency and rebound. Am I asking for to much?
where in the world is oso leaving to?
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If Oso leaves plus the other two, a transfer forward could step in and start.
Somebody who can shoot with consistency and rebound. Am I asking for to much?
Where’s Oso going? Turkey? Last man on the next on a G League roster? Gimme a break.
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Shaka the Maestro just couldn’t keep the band in sync today.
Hope he can keep the team in tune in the off season.
MU won its first NCAA tournament in 10 years. Congrats
Shaka won his first NCAA game in ten years. Congrats. He is now 1 and 8 in last nine years, losing as 2 and 3 seed before Sweet Sixteen. Not the messiah yet as some predict, but he got that win, turned team around it’s a start. Let’s see where it leads
Big East Season and Tournament Champs, with POY and COY.
You know roster gonna change a bit, so let’s see what happens in next month.
Rosters always change.
Disappointed, but it was an exciting year and no one can dispute that. Thank you MU hoops for the last five months.
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Yup. Tyler Kolek was a helluva player for Marquette this season. He was bad today for whatever reason. Marquette isn’t here without him. Marquette may very well be playing Thursday if he plays average today. I’ll still take him as my PG any day of the week
Love Tyler and thankful to have him. And maybe I'm completely wrong about his performance. Nothing I saw today made me think him being terrible was injury-related. If it was, more than happy to admit I'm wrong. Those TOs didn't seem caused by the thumb. His two fouls in the first half were not because of his thumb.
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Love Tyler and thankful to have him. And maybe I'm completely wrong about his performance. Nothing I saw today made me think him being terrible was injury-related. If it was, more than happy to admit I'm wrong. Those TOs didn't seem caused by the thumb. His two fouls in the first half were not because of his thumb.
Agree, that’s why I say average TKO and it’s likely/possible they win. I’m not blaming the thumb. I’m being honestly critical, he was bad today
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If Oso leaves plus the other two, a transfer forward could step in and start.
Somebody who can shoot with consistency and rebound. Am I asking for to much?
Are the "other two" Kennedy and Wrightsil? If Oso also left, MU would still have no open scholarships, as they are currently one over the limit.
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I don't buy #9 at all.. That was a self-inflicted loss imo.
Exactly. 100% agree self inflicted. I do agree wholeheartedly with 10.
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Effort was good It took MUBB a long time, on offense, in the first half, to match the half court aggressiveness of the Michigan St. defense. But they eventually did. Good game plan for MSU. MUBB adjusted and even threw in a few wrinkles defensively with the 1-2-2 that were effective at times.
In the 2nd….scoring was a struggle all game, so you can’t have that many empty trips and unforced turnovers, especially in transition and/or early in possessions when they weren’t forced. MUBB didn’t value the ball often enough. There were too many instances where the sense of urgency was there, but, composure was lacking.
Michigan St. missed a lot of 3’s and started to reduce their 3 quantity. Points in the paint was big, MSU almost doubling up the scoring there. MUBB only had 10 points in the paint almost 35 minutes into the game. That wasn’t something I expected. This isn’t one of the big beefy glass eating MSU teams. I think that and the heavy reliance on TK to run the offense are a couple of growth area possibilities.
MUBB had an elite offense this season, with a good enough defense, that relied upon forcing turnovers for success. The ball moves on offense. When that isn’t happening, the margin for a dub goes down quite a bit.
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even with a bad thumb kolek could have contributed as a game manager rather than a massive net negative. lots of players uncharacteristically bad though. ross and joplin really cost us on turnovers. the whole bench sans gold was awful. not sure why gold didn't play more. mitchell wasn't great. just a collective disappointment
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Well that was not fun. I’m not going to jump off a ledge tonight but my wife asked me to stop drinking. Just as a precaution. I’m disappointed because we didn’t see MU basketball. They played hard and we all waited for the offense to be efficient, it never happened. Tyler couldn’t switch the ball from left hand to right hand to penetrate. Next year it will be different. MU will return all of their players and will have this year’s experience. And they will bring in some new players to press the other guys. I’m sorry to see it end this way, but still it was fun to get on that ride. At least I didn’t loose my glasses or throw up.
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
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Agree, that’s why I say average TKO and it’s likely/possible they win. I’m not blaming the thumb. I’m being honestly critical, he was bad today
Got it - same page.
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Izzo was masterful today. I think a healthy Kolek makes that 50-50.
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6-4 MSU
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
We played our worst game of the season. An average effort wins this game by double digits.
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Are the "other two" Kennedy and Wrightsil? If Oso also left, MU would still have no open scholarships, as they are currently one over the limit.
Some discussion of Ellis (transfer), Keeyan (transfer), and Omax leaving (pro). Omax, as it currently stands, can't make NIL money as a Canadien.
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
I completely disagree. Marquette beats that team 9 of 10. I wasn’t t impressed with MSU at all
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
I think this astoundingly stupid.
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
8-2??? You’re nuts
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Who cares? It’s just a hypothetical exercise. When it counted MSU won.
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I think this astoundingly stupid.
So your are brilliant in your comments?
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We played our worst game of the season. An average effort wins this game by double digits.
Maybe worst game. Only other game I can think of is at uconn
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
Hahahaha. MU did this to themselves Izzo had nothing to do with it.
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1. TKo is clearly hurting. Affected everything. No EGB's today
2. This team is resilient. Never a doubt they would make it a game.
3. Got a lead, got 3 happy.
4. And turnover happy.
5. I felt the ending was inevitable after Omax's flagrant. I felt MU would not get a close call the rest of the way.
6. Shaka needed to use his timeouts sooner. Take those two into the offseason.
7. Free throws matter.
8. Not a great day for the bench.
9. Playing an Izzo team in March and not playing your best game.... only one way it ends. Alas.
10. Three first year players, three second year players, three third year players. Stick together. Next year could be amazing.
Agree with this. Hopefully players and Shaka learned from this. We do need another big that can protect the rim. Shaka needs to find one
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Maybe worst game. Only other game I can think of is at uconn
Johnny, UConn did it to us. Today we did it to us.
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Hahahaha. MU did this to themselves Izzo had nothing to do with it.
come on, there's a reason izzo is so successful and MU is not. He's a brilliant coach with studs athletes. That gap was showcased today.
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MSU didn't impress me either .. they underperformed as well. Over 10 games, coaching and their scheme would win 8. Sorry.
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come on, there's a reason izzo is so successful and MU is not. He's a brilliant coach with studs athletes. That gap was showcased today.
Good grief what a silly take. 🙄
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Yup. Tyler Kolek was a helluva player for Marquette this season. He was bad today for whatever reason. Marquette isn’t here without him. Marquette may very well be playing Thursday if he plays average today. I’ll still take him as my PG any day of the week
Absolutely. We saw a completely different player in the tournament. That injury had to be a big reason for that. I’ll stick with Kolek next year any day of the week. They’ll be back in the same position next year and ready to roll.
Was hoping for a little more experience before we were out (sweet sixteen or elite eight) but the Big East title * 2 and this game will be enough to propel them to wanting more. The immediate future is all good.
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MU will be more talented next year. I forget how many Fr and Soph comprise this roster. Infusion of talent will continue to help this team get better. I got sucked in by this run and was unprepared for it’s a rut end. What make the tournament great!
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MU will be more talented next year. I forget how many Fr and Soph comprise this roster. Infusion of talent will continue to help this team get better. I got sucked in by this run and was unprepared for it’s a rut end. What make the tournament great!
I think of the improvement of the older players this year and if that progression continues for those guys and the frosh, no reason they can’t be better next year.
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We played our worst game of the season. An average effort wins this game by double digits.
No we didnt….TK did….everyone else did enough.
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MSU didn't impress me either .. they underperformed as well. Over 10 games, coaching and their scheme would win 8. Sorry.
Doubling down on dumb.
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Doubling down on dumb.
In a 10-game series (god this is a dumb argument) scheme would be adjusted anyway
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Doubling down on dumb.
Topper hasn’t really had a positive opinion about Marquette hoops since Buzz left.
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come on, there's a reason izzo is so successful and MU is not. He's a brilliant coach with studs athletes. That gap was showcased today.
If you watched that game and didnt think MU pissed it away, then I dont even know what say.
They turned the ball over so often, when they could have extended the lead. Most of the turnovers were unforced and Kolek just playing bad. There is not a talent gap. We are not talking about Izzo's career, just this game/season.
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The stretch with Ross ad Joplin throwing the ball away for 5 consecutive possessions was the difference. Good comeback and plenty to build on. Could’ve used some leadership in that stretch, or at least a TO.
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I think MSU's defense was the deciding factor in the game.
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If you watched that game and didnt think MU pissed it away, then I dont even know what say.
They turned the ball over so often, when they could have extended the lead. Most of the turnovers were unforced and Kolek just playing bad. There is not a talent gap. We are not talking about Izzo's career, just this game/season.
pissed it away, maybe to a point. But MSU certainly had something to do with that via scheme and defensive pressure we haven't seen all year. Gotta give them credit, mediocre big ten team or not
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I think MSU's defense was the deciding factor in the game.
It wasn’t.
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All the people saying we have a talent problem are nuts. We were far more talented than MSU, we just blew it.
OMax had Hauser in hell
Oso got whatever he wanted against their big guy, but couldn't finish
Kam Jones was the best player on the floor
Tyler Kolek was replaced by a stunt double
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No we didnt….TK did….everyone else did enough.
Nah the team did not do enough to cover as they are supposed to do. Just a bad game overall and a though time to have one. MSU was not impressive. And we did stop a lot of their threes tho
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pissed it away, maybe to a point. But MSU certainly had something to do with that via scheme and defensive pressure we haven't seen all year. Gotta give them credit, mediocre big ten team or not
Kolek not being himself was huge. We made their defense look good.
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I think MSU's defense was the deciding factor in the game.
Tyler’s poor play was the biggest factor today. Not sure how much I’d attribute that to MSU’s defense.
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
I disagree. Too many self inflicted wounds today. They played as poorly as they have all year and were in the game inexplicably. If MU brought their C game they win. I would go 80-20 the other way.
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Nah the team did not do enough to cover as they are supposed to do. Just a bad game overall and a though time to have one. MSU was not impressive. And we did stop a lot of their threes tho
No player was further from the average than TK. Everyone else was adequate?
Who played significantly poorly compared to their season average? Chase maybe.
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Johnny, UConn did it to us. Today we did it to us.
Yep ur right. Think it’s safe to say this was the worst performance of the season. Just brutal beyond belief. oh well I’m 80% over it at this point
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I understand all of the “if TK was average we win” but what if MSU made 1/2 their 3 pointers? We could have easily been blown out this game.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Let’s see what Shaka and boys can do next year, but his subpar performance in the NCAA is upsetting. (Yes I know he didn’t contribute to the turnovers, but ultimately he needs to get the gang to pull it together)
Overall, B season imo
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I think MSU's defense was the deciding factor in the game.
Definitely wasn’t.
Final 3:36 of the game after Omax misses the and 1 (MSU up 56-55):
Walker layup
Hoggard layup
Walker 6’ jumper
Walker 2 FT’s
Walker dunk
MU goes from down 1 to down 11 in that 3 minute stretch. They had no answer to stopping MSU.
If MU’s shopping for something this offseason, I’ll take a 6’4” 3 & D guard please.
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Definitely wasn’t.
Final 3:36 of the game after Omax misses the and 1 (MSU up 56-55):
Walker layup
Hoggard layup
Walker 6’ jumper
Walker 2 FT’s
Walker dunk
MU goes from down 1 to down 11 in that 3 minute stretch. They had no answer to stopping MSU.
If MU’s shopping for something this offseason, I’ll take a 6’4” 3 & D guard please.
We’ll hopefully Norman and Lowery can help in this regard because that’s what’s coming in.
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Definitely wasn’t.
Final 3:36 of the game after Omax misses the and 1 (MSU up 56-55):
Walker layup
Hoggard layup
Walker 6’ jumper
Walker 2 FT’s
Walker dunk
MU goes from down 1 to down 11 in that 3 minute stretch. They had no answer to stopping MSU.
If MU’s shopping for something this offseason, I’ll take a 6’4” 3 & D guard please.
Tre Norman is 6’3” so…
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I'm not trying to make excuses, but I think Kolek's injury really affected his handle. A lot of what makes him successful is his confidence dribbling into nooks and crannies in a defense, and then craftily putting up a floater, reverse, or passing out of it. I don't think he felt confident on the bounce, and without that his game kinda falls apart.
Put me in the "Izzo was great" camp. Sure some of the TOs were bad, but I think a lot were also byproducts of frustration and uncertainty with what MSU took away. Kam hardly got to the rim today - I think Stevie probably had the most drives to the hoop, and unfortunately he's our worst finisher. Izzo made Joey look like a competent defender. Joplin had no space and no real impact on the game. The turnovers are the end result, but I disagree they were unforced.
As for defense, their guards took us apart. We had a lot of trouble staying in front on the dribble. When Kam get's iso'd, we're in real trouble.
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I understand all of the “if TK was average we win” but what if MSU made 1/2 their 3 pointers? We could have easily been blown out this game.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Let’s see what Shaka and boys can do next year, but his subpar performance in the NCAA is upsetting. (Yes I know he didn’t contribute to the turnovers, but ultimately he needs to get the gang to pull it together)
Overall, B season imo
That's certainly a take.
When consensus expectations are to be a cellar-dweller in the Big East (and therefore, highly unlikely to make the tourney) and you win the Big East Regular Season and Tourney Championships, BEPOY, BE6Man of the Year, and get to the round of 32 - you consider that a B?
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If MU’s shopping for something this offseason, I’ll take a 6’4” 3 & D guard please.
Mitchell 6'2
Kam 6'4
Chase 6'4
Tre 6'4
Lowery 6'4
Ellis 6'5 (or more)
How many more would fit on the roster.
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That's certainly a take.
When consensus expectations are to be a cellar-dweller in the Big East (and therefore, highly unlikely to make the tourney) and you win the Big East Regular Season and Tourney Championships, BEPOY, BE6Man of the Year, and get to the round of 32 - you consider that a B?
I do only because when you’re a 2 seed, win the BEast regular season and tournament, I would expect to make the second week.
Judging off preseason expectation, you’re right probably an A.
Still above average, but the way the bracket turned out, a FF was ripe for the picking.
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This is how high I am on Tre Norman... MU wins that game tonight with him. He's exactly what they need. Strong, good handle, really solid in PNR. He would have put up more resistance to Hoggard than TK did.
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Jesse
Hope all is well!!
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Mitchell 6'2
Kam 6'4
Chase 6'4
Tre 6'4
Lowery 6'4
Ellis 6'5 (or more)
How many more would fit on the roster.
Chase is the closest 3 & D guy on the current roster, certainly not Mitchell & Kam.
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Jesse
Hope all is well!!
Great seeing your post all year Mother-Goose! You got the band all wound up, and were absolutely correct on Shaka!
Be well!
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This is how high I am on Tre Norman... MU wins that game tonight with him. He's exactly what they need. Strong, good handle, really solid in PNR. He would have put up more resistance to Hoggard than TK did.
Hope ur right. Wouldn’t mind him starting over stevie. Love the guy but having a starting guard with such little scoring ability is huge liability
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Chase is the closest 3 & D guy on the current roster, certainly not Mitchell & Kam.
Mitchell is a tremendous defender.
Kam is a good three point shooter.
There is an offseason of work to come.
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Hope ur right. Wouldn’t mind him starting over stevie. Love the guy but having a starting guard with such little scoring ability is huge liability
Stevie is fine.
He’s a better offensive player than Derrick Wilson ever was and Derrick was a starting PG for two straight years.
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Stevie is fine.
He’s a better offensive player than Derrick Wilson ever was and Derrick was a starting PG for two straight years.
I’d like to see Stevie and Kam develop a mid range jumper - we lacked that this year.
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Stevie is fine.
He’s a better offensive player than Derrick Wilson ever was and Derrick was a starting PG for two straight years.
Please don't disrespect Stevie Mitchell by even putting him in the same sentence or comparison as Derrick Wilson.
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Stevie is fine.
He’s a better offensive player than Derrick Wilson ever was and Derrick was a starting PG for two straight years.
very low bar there
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Question:
If this game was played 10 times .. what'd be the result?
TBH, I'm going with MSU 8, MU 2. I think Izzo was masterful today and he'd well contain MU over multiple games.
With normal (not even great) TK, MU 7, MSU 3.
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I’d like to see Stevie and Kam develop a mid range jumper - we lacked that this year.
That’s literally the kind of shot we don’t want to take.
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That was no masterful coaching clinic from Izzo. It’s easy to defend a team when they turn the ball over every other possession on unforced errors. The decision to auto bench Hoggard in the first half killed MSU. It let us back into the game and without the turnovers and the moronic Omax intentional foul, probably would’ve lost them the game. MSU struggled mightily with our token pressure, turned the ball over themselves a fair amount and ended up taking lots of rushed end of shot clock looks because they couldn’t get anything going offensively. Once again, it’s easy to defend a team that shoots itself in the foot over and over again with turnovers. We’re far and away the better team, but we couldn’t get out of our own way.
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That’s literally the kind of shot we don’t want to take.
except it wins games at the end of games.
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Stevie isn't going anywhere in this starting lineup. He paces this team defensively and he can develop enough to make noise on offense.
I think Tre will be better than your average freshman but let him prove it on the court. This team desperately needs Sean Jones and Ross to come ready to contribute in meaningful ways. I'm confident Ross will...but Jones is the one you really need
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I’d like to see Stevie and Kam develop a mid range jumper - we lacked that this year.
Since we don’t shoot mid-range jumpers, there is no reason to develop one.
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https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/NCAA-Tourney-Michigan-State-69-Marquette-60-Tom-Izzo-206926365/
I am sure these will be up on youtube. Dodd's paraphrasing.
Izzo said they did some things defensively.
TKo says it wasn't the thumb
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Tyler’s thumb was a major issue. He went from All-America play pre-NCAA to worse than when he was at George Mason. Big stage was not the issue; MSG is a big stage. He turned it over on drives to the lane, couldn’t finish at the rim. Night and day different player. Thumb is the only explanation
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Stevie is fine.
He’s a better offensive player than Derrick Wilson ever was and Derrick was a starting PG for two straight years.
Stevie needs a LOT of work finishing when contested. Tyler did too after last year though, so hopefully they work with him the same way they did with Tyler.
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Since we don’t shoot mid-range jumpers, there is no reason to develop one.
As opposed to driving to the rim and getting it blocked?
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We would’ve turned the ball over playing zero on five in an empty gym. There was no scheme that forced those turnovers. Completely uncharacteristic, sloppy and rushed play.
Nothing Izzo did defensively forced those turnovers.
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Tyler’s thumb was a major issue. He went from All-America play pre-NCAA to worse than when he was at George Mason. Big stage was not the issue; MSG is a big stage. He turned it over on drives to the lane, couldn’t finish at the rim. Night and day different player. Thumb is the only explanation
Tyler himself said in the press conference that the thumb was not a factor whatsoever and said he had no excuses for his turnovers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBlDauLkww
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Tyler himself said in the press conference that the thumb was not a factor whatsoever and said he had no excuses for his turnovers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBlDauLkww
Tyler’s a smart kid - he knew if he said it was in any way related to the thumb, it would come off as sour grapes.
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Tyler’s a smart kid - he knew if he said it was in any way related to the thumb, it would come off as sour grapes.
Maybe he was being honest.
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come on, there's a reason izzo is so successful and MU is not. He's a brilliant coach with studs athletes. That gap was showcased today.
Yes, Izzo is "so successful". But how do you arrive at the conclusion that "MU is not". Back to back NCAA Tournament appearances in Shaka's first 2 years; regular season and BET Championships; and 29-7 record would indicate otherwise. That Marquette is pretty damn successful right now and perfectly positioned for even greater "success" in the coming seasons.
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Topper hasn’t really had a positive opinion about Marquette hoops since Buzz left.
Hol up. Very few had a positive opinion about MU during the Wojo years, and frankly, anyone who did were proven wrong year after year during Wojo's futility.
I think MU had a fantastic year. But yeah, I did not think they were elite enough to be a Final 4 team. I absolutely love Shaka's style and ability to get way more than the sum of the parts.
As Buzz used to say .. keep throwing good pitches. This year built on last year, both good pitches, and I expect next year to be even better.
But yeah, MSU is no slouch team, Torvik had them at 24 to MU's 14, Izzo is a HOF coach and yes, MSU beats MU 8 of 10 today. All you guys who think otherwise .. sorry, you're over-valuing Marquette this year. MSU is a good team and the best evidence we have is the 40 minutes they just played.
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Hol up. Very few had a positive opinion about MU during the Wojo years, and frankly, anyone who did were proven wrong year after year during Wojo's futility.
I think MU had a fantastic year. But yeah, I did not think they were elite enough to be a Final 4 team. I absolutely love Shaka's style and ability to get way more than the sum of the parts.
As Buzz used to say .. keep throwing good pitches. This year built on last year, both good pitches, and I expect next year to be even better.
But yeah, MSU is no slouch team, Torvik had them at 24 to MU's 14, Izzo is a HOF coach and yes, MSU beats MU 8 of 10 today. All you guys who think otherwise .. sorry, you're over-valuing Marquette this year. MSU is a good team and the best evidence we have is the 40 minutes they just played.
Believing MSU beats MU 8/10 is pure idiocy, no matter now many times you repeat yourself.
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Believing MSU beats MU 8/10 is pure idiocy, no matter now many times you repeat yourself.
Marquette shot themselves in the foot time and time again throughout the game. Michigan state is tough, but there is no reason we couldn’t beat them playing even our average game.
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Marquette shot themselves in the foot time and time again throughout the game. Michigan state is tough, but there is no reason we couldn’t beat them playing even our average game.
That’s exactly my point. We were awful and that had more to do with us than MSU. To say that team would beat us 8/10 is patently absurd.
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MSU wouldn’t have finished in the top 5 of the Big East this season.
We played a really bad game, and because MSU was so ordinary we still had a chance to win with a few minutes left. They executed down the stretch, we didn’t.
Izzo is a HOFer, but this is not one of his better teams, far from it.
Jan-Mar we were the better team. Today we weren’t. It sucks!
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Reading these comments I’m understanding
That scoopers have different definitions of “mid range jumper”.
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Never easy when it ends, long, quiet car ride back to MKE. I’m pretty disappointed only because I thought we lost the game because of our mentality. Tyler was off mentally since Vermont, Shaka was not as hype and engaged when we were struggling, and Kam was arguing with the refs. It just didn’t feel like it felt all year. It was so uncharacteristic and so noticeable.
Massive props to Oso for staying positive and trying to keep the boys chins up. Massive props to OMax for working his ass off. Massive props to the boys for fighting all year. This one stings a lot probably because the boys were so good and gave me hope. That hope hasn’t gone away and neither has the sting.
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+1
Uncharacteristic sloppiness cost us.
Disagree 100%. They packed it in, took away the two man game of Kolek/Oso, and forced us to drive into crowds.
Plus, at crunch time, one team had poise and worked for the good shot, while the other chucked up early threes and turned the ball over. That's coaching.
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Disagree 100%. They packed it in, took away the two man game of Kolek/Oso, and forced us to drive into crowds.
Exactly. 9 two point FG, 11 threes. MSU was all about taking away the drive and dish in the paint.
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Disagree 100%. They packed it in, took away the two man game of Kolek/Oso, and forced us to drive into crowds.
Plus, at crunch time, one team had poise and worked for the good shot, while the other chucked up early threes and turned the ball over. That's coaching.
So if they packed it in and took away the two man game and dribble drive game, why do you feel “chucking up early threes” was poor decision-making?
Honestly, MSU didn’t work for good shots down the stretch, our D forced them into one on one iso ball with the shot clock under 8 seconds. Hogg Ard I’d a load. Walker played really well. They hit some tough midrange shots that were purely 1-on-1, not a function of running some amazing offensive set.
We played terribly yesterday. An outlier game with the turnover differential being -13, we had a season high and forced a season low. A majority of our turnovers were unforced.
It’s easy to say it was “coaching,” but there’s still only so much a coach can do when your players are just playing so far out of sorts as compared to their norms.
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Exactly. 9 two point FG, 11 threes. MSU was all about taking away the drive and dish in the paint.
Exactly. Izzo was masterful in creating this defense, and try as Tyler, Oso, and Shaka could, it was kryptonite without amazing 3 point shooting to make Izzo change that D.
MSU wins 8 of 10 with that.
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Exactly. Izzo was masterful in creating this defense, and try as Tyler, Oso, and Shaka could, it was kryptonite without amazing 3 point shooting.
MSU wins 8 of 10 with that.
Except we are the Number 1 2 pt FG% shooting team in D1. Over 60%. Yesterday? Nope. Compound that by 16 turnovers, most of which were unforced, that’s roughly 10 less FG attempts for us than usual and there you have the loss.
You’re welcome to credit Izzo, but then you really ought to credit Shaka for “forcing” MSU into 2 for 16 shoring from 3, as they are as I recall the Number 3 team in the country on 3pt shooting %.
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Exactly. Izzo was masterful in creating this defense, and try as Tyler, Oso, and Shaka could, it was kryptonite without amazing 3 point shooting to make Izzo change that D.
MSU wins 8 of 10 with that.
You continuing to state this doesn’t make it less ridiculous.
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Exactly. Izzo was masterful in creating this defense, and try as Tyler, Oso, and Shaka could, it was kryptonite without amazing 3 point shooting to make Izzo change that D.
MSU wins 8 of 10 with that.
I don't see what was so masterful about it.
Oso 4-6 with 10 points and 4 assists, pretty standard game
OMax 5-11 including a good for him 3-7 from 3
Kam with 14 points on 4-9 from deep (which was 4-7 before he had to chuck a couple in the last minute)
Stevie with a standard 6 points on meh shooting.
The difference was 12(!) turns from Kolek, Jop, and Ross against 5 assists, plus what were effectively 2 more live ball turns when Kolek got blocked twice in crunch time.
I mean, was the masterful defense just focused on those three guys?
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Cut off the head....
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Cut off the head....
Congrats to Tom Izzo for being the first coach to do this.
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Cut off the head....
Kolek played very poorly. He was pressing and found himself into a bunch of unforced turnovers. There is absolutely nothing “masterful” about that.
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Congrats to Tom Izzo for being the first coach to do this.
Yes, he was able to cut off the head of the snake. I would put this somewhere around 80% MSU defense, 20% self inflicted. I know that this is not the zeitgeist of the board, but I don't care. That is what I saw.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401522175
I have a box score that says 11 assists, 16 turnovers and 9-25 from 2. MSU did that to MU.
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TKO is the straw that stirs the drink. Don't know for sure what the thumb issue was, but it got into his head.
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Cut off the head....
Then I guess the Vermont coach also had a masterful plan
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He had a plan but not the horses. MSU had the plan and the horses.
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So if they packed it in and took away the two man game and dribble drive game, why do you feel “chucking up early threes” was poor decision-making?
Because we didn't take good threes early. We took threes we could always get. We didn't move the ball around the perimter and look for driving lanes to kick to the three from by players beside Kolek.
As for Izzo, when Kolek drove, they had a good defender on him and the balance of team was cognizant of taking away his preferred passing lanes and were diligent about it 90% of the time. It was a very well-designed defense that prevented us from doing what we do best, executed well by his players. If you can't see that is good coaching, I don't know what to tell you.
Meanwhile, they missed a bunch of wide open threes that I would not necessarily credit to our defense. I thought we were thoroughly outcoached. No shame in that, Izzo is pretty good at this.
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Never easy when it ends, long, quiet car ride back to MKE. I’m pretty disappointed only because I thought we lost the game because of our mentality. Tyler was off mentally since Vermont, Shaka was not as hype and engaged when we were struggling, and Kam was arguing with the refs. It just didn’t feel like it felt all year. It was so uncharacteristic and so noticeable.
Massive props to Oso for staying positive and trying to keep the boys chins up. Massive props to OMax for working his ass off. Massive props to the boys for fighting all year. This one stings a lot probably because the boys were so good and gave me hope. That hope hasn’t gone away and neither has the sting.
This^^^^
There was a palpable feel in both games in Columbus that wasn’t there earlier in the season.
While Tyler was the most obvious, you could really tell that the team wasn’t as “together” and as “comfortable” as it had been all season. The joy of their game and the calming influence didn’t seem to be there.
There were plenty of examples while watching live, but the short tempers with the refs and Shakas upset towards his guys really stood out.
Must have been the magnitude of the moment.
I completely agree with the point above that Omax and especially Oso really stood out in a positive light, and that was great to see.
The entire game yesterday I just waited for TyKo to make one “wow” play, one really good pass to get someone an easy bucket. The turnovers sucked, but I thought if he just made one beautiful play that it would get both him and the team going.
Then he made an amazing pass to Oso for an and one and the Marquette fans exploded.
Didn’t have the effect I had hoped it would unfortunately.
Either way, whether we like it or not, Coach Shaka and his March struggles since VCU is unfortunately now a thing, and there will be pressure to overcome that every season until it’s done. Hopefully March 2024.
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Doc and 21Jumpstreet's insights jive with my feelings now that I've calmed down a bit.
All season this team played with a cultivated fun energy. Stay loose, stay connected.
That's really hard to keep rolling when you're on the biggest stage of your life. Hard to not clench up.
Shaka and the coaches will be well served to try to replicate the stress of the tournament, both for the players and themselves, and how to perform under pressure. When you don't want to dance or clap. When you want it so bad you can taste it.
It's extremely hard to get that anxiety and tension to go away with breathing exercises. It's more valuable, IMO, to accept the feeling and play with it inside of you. Harness it. It's not going away. Not in March. That's what we didn't have a gameplan for.
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I expect this same team to run it back and dominate the Big East next year, get a top 2 seed again, and make a DEEP run in the tournament next year. Anything else would be a disappointment as we’ll start loading some of the starting 5 after next season. They should’ve made it to the E8 or further this year but if you play a bad game in the tournament you’re going home. It is what it is. Still had tremendous fun watching this team this year and glad to get the first tourney win in a decade.
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He had a plan but not the horses. MSU had the plan and the horses.
Agree to disagree. I didn't see Vermont attempt to take away driving or passing lanes as you say MSU did. What I saw was a guy that injured his thumb the day before, seriously exacerbated it on his first or second drive against Vermont, and was effectively done for the rest of the tournament.
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This^^^^
There was a palpable feel in both games in Columbus that wasn’t there earlier in the season.
While Tyler was the most obvious, you could really tell that the team wasn’t as “together” and as “comfortable” as it had been all season. The joy of their game and the calming influence didn’t seem to be there.
There were plenty of examples while watching live, but the short tempers with the refs and Shakas upset towards his guys really stood out.
Must have been the magnitude of the moment.
I completely agree with the point above that Omax and especially Oso really stood out in a positive light, and that was great to see.
The entire game yesterday I just waited for TyKo to make one “wow” play, one really good pass to get someone an easy bucket. The turnovers sucked, but I thought if he just made one beautiful play that it would get both him and the team going.
Then he made an amazing pass to Oso for an and one and the Marquette fans exploded.
Didn’t have the effect I had hoped it would unfortunately.
Either way, whether we like it or not, Coach Shaka and his March struggles since VCU is unfortunately now a thing, and there will be pressure to overcome that every season until it’s done. Hopefully March 2024.
I agree DocV. We screamed when TyKo made that pass, my son looked at me and smiled, he felt it, we felt it. It just didn’t lead to the next moment. I felt like we were up in our seats just as quickly as we were down.
I’ll add, on the way home we were talking with my 16 year old son. He’s a pretty good soccer player, has a goal to play college soccer, has a dream play D1, but he is the unquestioned captain and leader of his team. He said he is like Tyler, as he goes the team goes. And what was his most astute comment, I think, was when he said he just doesn’t understand how Tyler can work so hard for so long to reach this moment and then act like he did. He also pays very close attention to warm ups, to player interaction, to mannerisms, to body language. He said Kam seemed off. He was right.
As we all know, we have total control over our attitude and effort. Sometimes we will get beat by a better team, but is sure does sting when we didn’t give everything we had in our control to our teammates, coaches, or ourselves. We are human. And, this is the best way to learn and grow, in my opinion. As my son also said, dad, I’ve dealt with adversity, it makes you stronger, it makes you hungrier…if you want it to.
I love Shaka, I love the team. I buy what Shaka is selling, and I could see that his energy fizzled. Tyler’s attitude and leadership fizzled. Kam’s composure and light hearted nature fizzled. I know what Shaka says is genuine, I know it will lead to success as players and men. The culture is being built, this weekend was a massive challenge to the culture and to our leaders. We didn’t quite hold tough, we didn’t quite exhibit what we’ve been preaching all year. I bet we do when in this position next year.
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He had a plan but not the horses. MSU had the plan and the horses.
Lol stop. Tyler just played bad. Lights too bright? Injury? Both? Not sure but coaching didn’t take him out of these games.
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According to Shaka and Izzo, MSU's defense was an important factor.
Lol.
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According to Shaka and Izzo, MSU's defense was an important factor.
Lol.
Yes, they played good defense. I guess Syracuse playing zone in 2013 was scheme, too.
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According to Shaka and Izzo, MSU's defense was an important factor.
Lol.
Well sure, undoubtedly MSU's defense had something to do with it, we just disagree with where to assign the percentages. I didn't see a masterclass from Izzo that somehow also extended to the Vermont game.
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According to Shaka and Izzo, MSU's defense was an important factor.
Lol.
Of course they’ll say this. This is a lot like when Jay Wright used to heap praise on Wojo in postgame interviews. Same concept.
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Disagree 100%. They packed it in, took away the two man game of Kolek/Oso, and forced us to drive into crowds.
Plus, at crunch time, one team had poise and worked for the good shot, while the other chucked up early threes and turned the ball over. That's coaching.
I've been saying experience is huge and only 6 Marquette rotation members have been together 2 years. Oso the only holdover from 3 years ago. Michigan State was able to have Hauser, Hoggard, Hall and Sissoko who are in their 3rd year together and Walker and Aken have been with them for 2 years. Hauser is 23 years old while Hoggard, Hall, Walker and Sissoko are all 22 years old. Tyler is Marquette's oldest rotation player and he turns 22 next week, while Kam is the next oldest and he just turned 21 in February.
Marquette was able to dodge the age/experience issue for most of the season, but it caught up with them yesterday IMHO.
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According to Shaka and Izzo, MSU's defense was an important factor.
Lol.
Good point - it’s very like Shaka to throw his best player under the bus for poor performance or blame an injury.
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I've been saying experience is huge and only 6 Marquette rotation members have been together 2 years. Oso the only holdover from 3 years ago. Michigan State was able to have Hauser, Hoggard, Hall and Sissoko who are in their 3rd year together and Walker and Aken have been with them for 2 years. Hauser is 23 years old while Hoggard, Hall, Walker and Sissoko are all 22 years old. Tyler is Marquette's oldest rotation player and he turns 22 next week, while Kam is the next oldest and he just turned 21 in February.
Marquette was able to dodge the age/experience issue for most of the season, but it caught up with them yesterday IMHO.
I'd agree that experience was a factor.
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Exactly. 9 two point FG, 11 threes. MSU was all about taking away the drive and dish in the paint.
I think MU had seen this defense before and executed better against it previously. Bad game by MU. Good game plan by MSU but MSU didn’t throw anything revolutionary against them. But MSU won and those thinking the masterful Izzo’s scheme was the reason will be difficult minds to change.
But both MU playing badly and a good defensive strategy can both be true at the same time. Many turnovers were inexplicable and not defense related.
Oh well, on to next year.
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Yes.
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The one thing everyone has overlooked and might be the most important reason Marquette lost yesterday was, that was a trap game