MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: MU82 on February 02, 2023, 07:46:02 AM
-
How many PGs are playing better than Tyler Kolek is? Few if any. And none in the Big East lately, including Boum.
He's the on-court leader for a top-15 team, he's top-3 in the nation in a major statistical category while directing the most efficient offense in the country, he's got a great A/TO ratio, and he's already been getting some pub, such as this twit from a former Clemson player who is now in Sweden: https://twitter.com/T_Oglesby22/status/1620993965142188033
The biggest mark against him is his relatively low scoring average (11.2 ppg), which has led to the perception that he can't beat you by scoring.
Over the last 5 games, however, here are Kolek's numbers:
95 points -- 19.0 average
37 assists -- 7.4 average
27 rebounds -- 5.4 average
9 steals -- 1.8 average
12 turnovers -- 2.4 average
33-63 from the floor -- .524
11-25 from 3 -- .440
That's brought his season percentages from .474 overall and .375 from 3.
In 12 conference games for the Big East's first-place team, Kolek is averaging 13.7 points on .509 shooting (.350 from 3), 7.9 assists, 4.3 rebounds, 2.3 steals, 2.0 turnovers.
By comparison, Boum is averaging 14.0 points on .411 shooting (.349 from 3), 5.9 assists and 4.3 rebounds in Big East play. At the very least, that's a dead heat, and it's pretty easy to argue that Tyler's numbers are better.
If Kolek can continue being a scoring threat, along with all the other stuff he does for our team, and if Marquette keeps winning to garner more and more national attention, he just might have a shot at All-American and BEPOY.
I'm a big Oso guy and I consider him indispensable because we don't have anybody else who can do what he does offensively while manning the middle of our defense. But Kolek's pretty damn indispensable, too.
Credit to Jockey for talking about Tyler as a potential All-American before anybody else did.
-
And credit to those who said Sean Jones would start at PG.
-
Yep he should be in the conversation for all American. His development, especially adding consistent scoring, is the key to the success of this team. He will get his hardware.
-
Yes. I mentioned a few days ago he should be considered for national A-A teams.
-
IMHO he's got to keep looking for his shot when opportunities present themselves (and obviously needs to keep making them). That will make us an even more dangerous team, and it will move Tyler up in the national conversation.
-
How we doing?
What's going on?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSr09GTW6No
-
Honestly for all the discussion about the legit NBA prospects of Oso, Omax, and Ross, I would be shocked if Kolek doesn't play a few seasons in the NBA.
Provided he continues his improvement and reliability from outside, he's got good size and build for the 1, exceptional passing and vision, and excellent BB IQ. His main knock is his athleticism, he doesn't have a great first step, but he wouldn't be the only one.
Look at TJ McConnell, at this stage in their careers, Kolek is a better passer, a better shooter, better scorer, and has better size. McConnell was probably a better defender, but Kolek isn't a traffic cone.
Same with Fred Van Vleet. Another sturdy PG who isn't super quick. Again, Kolek may have him beat on a few things at this stage, especially scoring.
Also, Ogelsby has been beating the drum for Marquette all year, which is awesome. But not surprising as he played for Shaka at Clemson and clearly is a big fan of him.
-
Assuming he continues to improve, especially his 3-point shot, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Kolek make some NBA money, either.
-
Honestly for all the discussion about the legit NBA prospects of Oso, Omax, and Ross, I would be shocked if Kolek doesn't play a few seasons in the NBA.
Provided he continues his improvement and reliability from outside, he's got good size and build for the 1, exceptional passing and vision, and excellent BB IQ. His main knock is his athleticism, he doesn't have a great first step, but he wouldn't be the only one.
Look at TJ McConnell, at this stage in their careers, Kolek is a better passer, a better shooter, better scorer, and has better size. McConnell was probably a better defender, but Kolek isn't a traffic cone.
Same with Fred Van Vleet. Another sturdy PG who isn't super quick. Again, Kolek may have him beat on a few things at this stage, especially scoring.
Also, Ogelsby has been beating the drum for Marquette all year, which is awesome. But not surprising as he played for Shaka at Clemson and clearly is a big fan of him.
I agree with your post, except for the bolded. Van Vleet is almost averaging 20 points a game
-
I will say this, his running hook shot in the final minute was the offensive play of the game. At that point, both teams had gone about 3 tense minutes without scoring and that gave MU its biggest lead of the night, and forced Nova to rush a shot and then foul. After he made the two FT's, the game was effectively over, except in the eyes of people (like the guy sitting next to me at the game) who were interested in MU covering.
The way the NBA values 3 point shooting these days, Kolek will have to make significant improvements in that area to get a lot of playing time. But, there's no reason he can't do that.
As for All American this year I just don't think he has the gaudy scoring numbers that will catch the attention of national voters.
-
It’s hard to describe just how good Kolek is and what he means to this team. He is the ultimate leader.
When he starts knocking down threes, he becomes lethal because they have no idea how to guard him. He can beat you with his shot, a drive, a pass. If he draws a double team, he has a unique ability to find the guy who isn’t being guarded.
Best part is that he keeps improving and you know he out in the work during the off-season.
I don’t if his game is suited for the style of play in today’s NBA but I’d be shocked if he isn’t a head coach a decade from now.
-
I don’t if his game is suited for the style of play in today’s NBA but I’d be shocked if he isn’t a head coach a decade from now.
A decade from now? If he's not in the NBA, he'll be playing with Markus in the Euroleague. His game is VERY much suited to high level European basketball. Maybe a HC in two decades from now.
-
Kolek and Oso deserve to be all BE and AA.
-
A decade from now? If he's not in the NBA, he'll be playing with Markus in the Euroleague. His game is VERY much suited to high level European basketball. Maybe a HC in two decades from now.
By a decade I meant when he’s in his 30s. That’s a great age to get your first HC position.
-
Kolek and Oso deserve to be all BE and AA.
Perhaps. In our hearts, certainly. But they won't be.
-
I suspect voters will be turned off by a PPG mark around 11 but he should absolutely be in the conversation.
-
I suspect voters will be turned off by a PPG mark around 11 but he should absolutely be in the conversation.
It's 11.2 now. Just a few weeks ago, it was 9.2. So we'll see what the next month brings.
I do tend to agree that he probably won't put up enough points to wow voters. Gillespie averaged 15.6 as a senior. Kolek probably needs to get to 15 and Marquette needs to keep winning. He'd need to average about 23 to get there. Even though he has averaged 19 his last 5 games, that's a tall order.
-
Don’t see it. In order to be AA he would need to be top 4 point guard and Oso top 4 center in the country. We are comparing them to other players in our league as a reason they should be all American.
There are four leagues that get more pub right now and there just needs to be one better player in those leagues. There are four PGs in the mock NBA draft right now.
I can see All Big East.
-
I suspect voters will be turned off by a PPG mark around 11 but he should absolutely be in the conversation.
There’s a quote I’m reminded of about voters……
-
When I predicted AA honors for Tyler, I was not predicting 1st team. I think it is very likely he is Honorable Mention - maybe even 3rd team.
If MU wins the BE - meaning they would probably be a Top 10 team that is garnering a lot of national attention - I would be surprised if he didn’t get national notice.
-
I doubt Kolek gets more than a cup of coffee in the NBA (I'd love to be wrong). He is a great, great, college player and will make A LOT of money in Europe. We are lucky to have him at MU.
-
How many PGs are playing better than Tyler Kolek is? Few if any. And none in the Big East lately, including Boum.
He's the on-court leader for a top-15 team, he's top-3 in the nation in a major statistical category while directing the most efficient offense in the country, he's got a great A/TO ratio, and he's already been getting some pub, such as this twit from a former Clemson player who is now in Sweden: https://twitter.com/T_Oglesby22/status/1620993965142188033
The biggest mark against him is his relatively low scoring average (11.2 ppg), which has led to the perception that he can't beat you by scoring.
Over the last 5 games, however, here are Kolek's numbers:
95 points -- 19.0 average
37 assists -- 7.4 average
27 rebounds -- 5.4 average
9 steals -- 1.8 average
12 turnovers -- 2.4 average
33-63 from the floor -- .524
11-25 from 3 -- .440
That's brought his season percentages from .474 overall and .375 from 3.
In 12 conference games for the Big East's first-place team, Kolek is averaging 13.7 points on .509 shooting (.350 from 3), 7.9 assists, 4.3 rebounds, 2.3 steals, 2.0 turnovers.
By comparison, Boum is averaging 14.0 points on .411 shooting (.349 from 3), 5.9 assists and 4.3 rebounds in Big East play. At the very least, that's a dead heat, and it's pretty easy to argue that Tyler's numbers are better.
If Kolek can continue being a scoring threat, along with all the other stuff he does for our team, and if Marquette keeps winning to garner more and more national attention, he just might have a shot at All-American and BEPOY.
I'm a big Oso guy and I consider him indispensable because we don't have anybody else who can do what he does offensively while manning the middle of our defense. But Kolek's pretty damn indispensable, too.
Credit to Jockey for talking about Tyler as a potential All-American before anybody else did.
Yea no...
Marcus Sasser, Jalen Pickett, Kendric Davis, Markquis Nowell, Darius Mcghee at Liberty.
Probably some other advance stat arguments for Reece Beekman, one of the Tennessee guards, and maybe even one purdue guard if we get nerdy.
Heck I would have Kam over Tyler. Tyler has been the best player the past 5 games but this is a huge overreaction.
-
Yea no...
Marcus Sasser, Jalen Pickett, Kendric Davis, Markquis Nowell, Darius Mcghee at Liberty.
Probably some other advance stat arguments for Reece Beekman, one of the Tennessee guards, and maybe even one purdue guard if we get nerdy.
Heck I would have Kam over Tyler. Tyler has been the best player the past 5 games but this is a huge overreaction.
I think he has too much scoring ground to make up to be an All-American pick. I hope he's at least honorable mention.
I will agree to disagree with you about Tyler/Kam. Voters will value Kolek's assists, and most will have watched Marquette play several times, so they will have seen how Kolek makes the nation's #1 offense go. I believe the All-Big East and BEPOY voting will put Tyler ahead of Kam, perhaps well ahead of him. If I end up being wrong about that, I will happily tip my hat to you.
-
Love Kam
But Kam over TK on any sort of "all team" whether its BE or america is insanity. And it wont happen.
Barring some insane run by Kam starting Sunday.
-
McDermott was on field of 68 recently and gushed about Tyler…….
Definitely the team MVP at this point of the season…….even if in reality we couldn’t stand losing any of our top 4.
-
Yea no...
Marcus Sasser, Jalen Pickett, Kendric Davis, Markquis Nowell, Darius Mcghee at Liberty.
Probably some other advance stat arguments for Reece Beekman, one of the Tennessee guards, and maybe even one purdue guard if we get nerdy.
Heck I would have Kam over Tyler. Tyler has been the best player the past 5 games but this is a huge overreaction.
Darius Mcghee is not a point guard. He is averaging 2.8 assists a game. His two high major opponents (Nothwestern and Alabama), he has 0 assists.And he shot 9-29 in those games.
Agree on the others though. But success of the team may put him past a few of those.
-
Love Kam
But Kam over TK on any sort of "all team" whether its BE or america is insanity. And it wont happen.
Barring some insane run by Kam starting Sunday.
In conference games only, amongst players with 20% or more usage, Tyler is the #1 player in Orating. Kam #7.
-
In conference games only, amongst players with 20% or more usage, Tyler is the #1 player in Orating. Kam #7.
Also, Kolek is averaging only 2 fewer points than Jones in conference games while contributing 4x as many assists. Tyler also has more rebounds and steals. Again, I'd be surprised if Kam is above Tyler on any of the BEast honor lists.
-
I think he has too much scoring ground to make up to be an All-American pick. I hope he's at least honorable mention.
I will agree to disagree with you about Tyler/Kam. Voters will value Kolek's assists, and most will have watched Marquette play several times, so they will have seen how Kolek makes the nation's #1 offense go. I believe the All-Big East and BEPOY voting will put Tyler ahead of Kam, perhaps well ahead of him. If I end up being wrong about that, I will happily tip my hat to you.
Probably right about the voters.
But Kam No Kolek is a better lineup than Kolek No Kam, so far this year. 30.1 Adj. Net Rating vs 19.2. Marquette somehow stays insanely efficient without Kolek and with Kam. With Kam they have a lower turnover rate.
Better on Defense and Offense. This is surprising because i think Kolek is a better defender than Kam. Plus the Kam Lineup defends the three better (my guess as to why is i bet Joplin is in with Kolek and not Kam).
It becomes more Kam centric and i would be concerned if it happened all of the time, but Kam's impact is probably larger on this MU teams than Koleks. Its just probably a bad time to say this because Kolek is on a heater and could easily stay on one and flip this in 1 or 2 games.
-
This team will make noise this year in the tournament and most of the starters will have to shine to do it. Next year if they return and this team is preseason top 10, Kolek and Oso will be on some preseason all American lists. Kam will get his due as well.
Obviously things have to go well this year to create buzz but so far so good.
-
Love Kam
But Kam over TK on any sort of "all team" whether its BE or america is insanity. And it wont happen.
Barring some insane run by Kam starting Sunday.
@$@*! , I bought tickets to a game on Saturday!
-
@$@*! , I bought tickets to a game on Saturday!
Sh it
was looking at something else that was Sunday at the time I typed it.
-
Shooter
If they make noise in March, which I expect, and return the guys next year I think they will be top 5 going into next season.
-
Shooter
If they make noise in March, which I expect, and return the guys next year I think they will be top 5 going into next season.
Gonna enjoy the season. Last time we had that mindset we didn't know the team had taken an elective in letter writing.
-
Gonna enjoy the season. Last time we had that mindset we didn't know the team had taken an elective in letter writing.
Ha!
Goose, i agree top five is definitely a possibility.
-
More TK love
https://heatcheckcbb.com/rauf-report-why-tennessee-is-overrated-how-texas-is-primed-for-tournament-success-more/
-
Probably right about the voters.
But Kam No Kolek is a better lineup than Kolek No Kam, so far this year. 30.1 Adj. Net Rating vs 19.2. Marquette somehow stays insanely efficient without Kolek and with Kam. With Kam they have a lower turnover rate.
Better on Defense and Offense. This is surprising because i think Kolek is a better defender than Kam. Plus the Kam Lineup defends the three better (my guess as to why is i bet Joplin is in with Kolek and not Kam).
It becomes more Kam centric and i would be concerned if it happened all of the time, but Kam's impact is probably larger on this MU teams than Koleks. Its just probably a bad time to say this because Kolek is on a heater and could easily stay on one and flip this in 1 or 2 games.
This is where advanced stats fail. Kam is extremely valuable to the team, yet you take Kolek off this team and we are probably a 40-70 ranked offense.
-
Kolek and Kam…Fire and Ice
-
Kolek and Kam…Fire and Ice
(https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-11-2015/RKBl6T.gif)
-
More TK love
https://heatcheckcbb.com/rauf-report-why-tennessee-is-overrated-how-texas-is-primed-for-tournament-success-more/
Thanks for that link. I especially liked this paragraph, and agree with it wholeheartedly:
I firmly believe that if he played for a team like Villanova, Duke or Kansas, there would be a bigger national conversation about his standing among the nation’s best point guards. Maybe even some debate over his status as an All-American. He is that good, and it’s time we started appreciating that.
-
Kolek and Kam…Fire and Ice
I prefer Shake and Bake
-
Kolek and Kam…Fire and Ice
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1991/03/14/fire-ice-a-pair-of-aces-at-nc-state/fc407cfb-96b7-4a66-8b0e-e7a714627ad4/
Retro article…The duo i first heard ‘fire and ice’ used for. Crazy article w/mentions of point shaving and paying players.
-
This is where advanced stats fail. Kam is extremely valuable to the team, yet you take Kolek off this team and we are probably a 40-70 ranked offense.
Long term yes... In bursts, just not true. The exact opposite is true. Kam only lineups are a #1 offense Tyler only offenses are a #9 offense.
-
Darius Mcghee is not a point guard. He is averaging 2.8 assists a game. His two high major opponents (Nothwestern and Alabama), he has 0 assists.And he shot 9-29 in those games.
Agree on the others though. But success of the team may put him past a few of those.
Yes because All-American teams have a strict positional labels. Oh wait, they don't at all
I don't think he is a better PG. But he is probably a better guard
-
Thanks for that link. I especially liked this paragraph, and agree with it wholeheartedly:
I firmly believe that if he played for a team like Villanova, Duke or Kansas, there would be a bigger national conversation about his standing among the nation’s best point guards. Maybe even some debate over his status as an All-American. He is that good, and it’s time we started appreciating that.
Preseason all American next year 82! Book it!
-
Preseason all American next year 82! Book it!
Wouldn’t surprise me at all, especially if he and the rest of our heroes take care of business in March.
-
My heroes are something different than 18-22 year old athletes.
-
https://twitter.com/RobDauster/status/1621518268451409924
-
My heroes are something different than 18-22 year old athletes.
Yes, because I actually meant that Marquette basketball players are any Scooper's actual heroes in life, as every word on interwebs sites is to be taken literally.
-
My heroes are something different than 18-22 year old athletes.
Ha! Teal? If not you either think too highly of yourself or too lowly of your scoop brethren.
-
Shooter
I think it is a tie for bias between thinking too highly of himself or too lowly of his scoop brethren. He is hands down the most disrespectful poster on scoop.
I wonder how many other message boards he visits to agitate people. Judging by the fact many of his posts are non-basketball related, he surely is not here to discuss Marquette basketball.
-
My heroes are something different than 18-22 year old athletes.
Absolutely, mine is a 33 year old athlete, Jimmy Butler
-
Yes because All-American teams have a strict positional labels. Oh wait, they don't at all
I don't think he is a better PG. But he is probably a better guard
He's 5-9 , paying at barely a mid major, and in his small sample size against high majors he sucked balls. Give me Kolek every day and twice on Sunday
-
Yea no...
Marcus Sasser, Jalen Pickett, Kendric Davis, Markquis Nowell, Darius Mcghee at Liberty.
Probably some other advance stat arguments for Reece Beekman, one of the Tennessee guards, and maybe even one purdue guard if we get nerdy.
This is kind of a laughable list. No one is talking about Darius McGhee. As good as Pickett and Davis are, team success matters and teams in the 8-bubble lines have a tougher time getting in that conversation.
Sasser or Nowell? They're in the conversation. Beekman and Zeigler? Not really. The Purdue guards? Absolutely not.
I wouldn't have TK first team right now, but somewhere in the 2nd/3rd to honorable mention spots wouldn't shock me. Especially given the dearth of star guards. If he gets BEPOY & Marquette is a 3-seed or better, he'll be on some All-American teams.
-
Shooter
I think it is a tie for bias between thinking too highly of himself or too lowly of his scoop brethren. He is hands down the most disrespectful poster on scoop.
I wonder how many other message boards he visits to agitate people. Judging by the fact many of his posts are non-basketball related, he surely is not here to discuss Marquette basketball.
Yes. Your boys RoQQQetman, ziggy, and 4never are so much more respectful and always in topic.
-
This is kind of a laughable list. No one is talking about Darius McGhee. As good as Pickett and Davis are, team success matters and teams in the 8-bubble lines have a tougher time getting in that conversation.
Sasser or Nowell? They're in the conversation. Beekman and Zeigler? Not really. The Purdue guards? Absolutely not.
I wouldn't have TK first team right now, but somewhere in the 2nd/3rd to honorable mention spots wouldn't shock me. Especially given the dearth of star guards. If he gets BEPOY & Marquette is a 3-seed or better, he'll be on some All-American teams.
That's why i separated who i picked. I fully acknowledge those "advance stat arguments" are probably not for how basketball is thought of, and how the awards are give.
I wouldn't be so sure to eliminate Davis and Pickett though. Its kinda like Markus Howards senior year with both of them being their entire teams and being an 8 or 9 seed (even though both of those guys are worse than Markus). There just are no top end guards to keep them from getting considered.
Kolek's biggest issue is Kam and Oso for individual awards. But i don't mind it as an MU fan.
-
bias
You are most disrespectful person on scoop and offer little in any basketball related thread. I have zero problem if that is how you want to present yourself. As for "my boys", I'll have their backs any day of the week. Note--Lenny is one "my boys" as well. The guys you noted know MU basketball history, the game and have supported the university for decades.
-
I wouldn't be so sure to eliminate Davis and Pickett though. Its kinda like Markus Howards senior year with both of them being their entire teams and being an 8 or 9 seed (even though both of those guys are worse than Markus).
Markus was returning from an All-American season. With multiple 50 point games, he was a household name in CBB circles. Neither Davis nor Pickett had that level of recognition to start the year, and their teams haven't risen to the level Markus' did (#17) to gain that attention.
Really good players, but hard to see them getting the national acclaim AA requires.
-
Markus was returning from an All-American season. With multiple 50 point games, he was a household name in CBB circles. Neither Davis nor Pickett had that level of recognition to start the year, and their teams haven't risen to the level Markus' did (#17) to gain that attention.
Really good players, but hard to see them getting the national acclaim AA requires.
Agreed, Memphis is a decent team in a mediocre conference. And also a 2 man team. It’s all Davis and Williams which makes his stats gaudy.
Pickett and Penn State are more of the same. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Pickett not even be first team All B10.
There are four leagues that get more pub right now and there just needs to be one better player in those leagues. There are four PGs in the mock NBA draft right now.
I can see All Big East.
This is just silly. Especially since the NBA drafts on potential.
Nick Smith and Cason Wallace will be lottery picks but neither will even be first team in their respective conferences. Smith hasn’t played since before Christmas and was averaging 12/2/2. Wallace isn’t even a top 3 option on his own team and averages 10/4/3.
Smith from NC St will probably get more accolades, but he’s a first round pick because of his potential as a very athletic scoring guard, not cause he’s one of the best PGs in the country
-
Tyler Kolek has been named to the Naismith Award Mid Season Team
-
Mike1977
That really is great news for Tyler. That is great company he is with on that list.
-
My dreams aren’t normally a precursor to actual future events so Tyler is probably going to be ok. However, I woke up during a dream this morning that I was watching an MU game. Tyler dove for a loose ball and got into a scramble with two opponents fighting for the ball. Tyler ended up on his back and one of the players put the side of one of his hands across Tyler’s forehead (think karate chop) and proceeded to slam the top of that hand with his other hand like a hammer and nail. Of course in true NCAA ref fashion, no foul was called. MU ended up losing the game. I was livid.
-
My dreams aren’t normally a precursor to actual future events so Tyler is probably going to be ok. However, I woke up during a dream this morning that I was watching an MU game. Tyler dove for a loose ball and got into a scramble with two opponents fighting for the ball. Tyler ended up on his back and one of the players put the side of one of his hands across Tyler’s forehead (think karate chop) and proceeded to slam the top of that hand with his other hand like a hammer and nail. Of course in true NCAA ref fashion, no foul was called. MU ended up losing the game. I was livid.
You’re in so deep, you’re fearing the end.
Like all seasons this one will end, too. Hopefully we get one more good/great month of basketball before it does.
As for the refs, if when it ends we are up in arms and feel wronged by them that means that
A) the season is over regardless
B) the game was likely close, otherwise we wouldn’t be griping about the refs so at least it was a good game and not a blowout
C) it’ll be a tough pill to swallow for a period of time
-
Looks like you can vote on www.hoophallawards.com. A percentage of the vote counts toward the final awards.
-
My dreams aren’t normally a precursor to actual future events so Tyler is probably going to be ok. However, I woke up during a dream this morning that I was watching an MU game. Tyler dove for a loose ball and got into a scramble with two opponents fighting for the ball. Tyler ended up on his back and one of the players put the side of one of his hands across Tyler’s forehead (think karate chop) and proceeded to slam the top of that hand with his other hand like a hammer and nail. Of course in true NCAA ref fashion, no foul was called. MU ended up losing the game. I was livid.
You been thinking about TK a lot a whole lot (TC voice)
-
Kolek deserves a lot of positive recognition for his outstanding play this year. I hope he's named all BE first team and POY and an All American.